Honeywell Valve 8043F (5000 series) keeps failing

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Old 01-07-14, 06:04 AM
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Question Honeywell Valve 8043F (5000 series) keeps failing

Hi,

I recently replaced a bad zone valve (entire unit) like this Shop Honeywell Replacement Power Head Zone Valve at Lowes.com on Sunday.
The heat was working as recently as last night, and this morning I came downstairs to a cold basement. Thermostat is clicking but the boiler will not fire.

I replaced the valve again just now and all seems to be ok.

Hopefully this fixes it for good, but is there any reason why the valve would fail so quickly?

Background:
4 zone (basement, 1st, 2nd, master) system, baseboard/hot water system.
Basement zone is experiencing this only, all others are working as expected.
Relatively new house and system (8 years), never had a problem until now.
I can post pics when I get home later tonight if necessary.
 
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Old 01-07-14, 06:24 AM
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That is kinda weird. What type of stat is downstairs? Is this the second replacement over this winter?
 
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Old 01-07-14, 06:39 AM
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it's a Honeywell RTH6350D100

yes this is the second time replacing the valve head

UPDATE:
After the new one was just installed, I jumped the red and white wire behind the thermo and the boiler fired. Reinstalled the thermo and now it doesn't work. even jumping the wires POST reinstalling the thermostat doesn't work either.
Could it be the wiring is shorted somewhere along the line?
 
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Old 01-07-14, 07:07 AM
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How about the other zones? Do they still work?
 
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Old 01-07-14, 07:10 AM
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yes, all other zones work as expected. never had a problem with them
 
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Old 01-07-14, 08:05 AM
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I mentioned the other zones because if you did somehow short the low voltage, none of them would work, but as long as they are still working fine, we can move along.
 
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Old 01-07-14, 08:31 AM
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ok thanks ... everything else works
it's just the basement zone that is giving problems.

second valve (new one this AM), the motor is warm/hot, so i assume it's burned out.

what would cause that?

jumping wires initially fired the boiler, working fine. connected thermo, stopped working. jumping wires no longer fires the boiler.
 
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Old 01-07-14, 08:58 AM
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the motor is warm/hot, so i assume it's burned out.
No, don't assume. Those motors do run hot.
 
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Old 01-07-14, 09:04 AM
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Does jumping the wires atleast open the zone valve?
 
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Old 01-07-14, 09:07 AM
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OK, your valves are the 8043E and have a pair of yellow wires and a pair of red wires.

If the motor is hot, it means that the thermostat is working and sending power to the motor on the YELLOW wires.

While you are standing at the valve, have a helper turn the thermostat all the way UP. If the valve was previously closed, you will hear the motor run and the 'whirring' of the gears as the valve opens up.

There is a manual lever on the valve. At this point with the valve OPEN, that lever will feel LOOSE, you can move it side to side with absolutely no resistance.

Now have your helper turn the thermostat all the way DOWN. You should again hear the whirring of the gears as the valve closes. If you move the manual lever you will now feel the resistance of the gears if you open the valve manually.

CAREFULLY INSPECT THE WIRING!

The RED wires coming out of the valves should be all connected in parallel and will travel to the boiler as a single pair of wires.

LOOK CLOSELY for loose connections in this wiring of the red wires to the boiler.
 
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Old 01-07-14, 09:54 AM
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I'll try some of those things tonight and let you guys know. I'm diagnosing remotely via my father in law who helped replace the valve this morning. I just dont' want the pipes to freeze as we're in the single digits during the day, and low singles overnight (maybe colder)

I'll also get some pics of the system just for reference

EDIT:
Yes it's a 8043E sorry for the mistake in the post title
I'm not a big fan of wiring/electrics so to me it's just a rats nest of wires, but I'll take a pic later and post it.
 

Last edited by fmchung23; 01-07-14 at 09:58 AM. Reason: adding info
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Old 01-07-14, 10:13 AM
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You can always manually open the valves to allow flow temporarily, it just wont make the boiler come on unless it makes the end switch.
 
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Old 01-07-14, 11:10 AM
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which does remind me ... when i first had the initial problem (saturday) i did hear what I now know to be the motor running, but since it wasn't making the end switch it just ran constantly? Is that how it works?

Is there any way to manually make the boiler come on?
 
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Old 01-07-14, 11:18 AM
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You can turn up the heat in another area to make the boiler run if you really wanted too. There's no real way to manually fire the boiler without any rewiring. The motors are not supposed to continuously run.
 
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Old 01-07-14, 11:33 AM
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Thumbs up

Ok so if the heat is on in one of the other zones and the valve is manually opened, heat/hot water will flow to the basement baseboard?
I understand that it's not supposed to constantly run, however if the end switch is not being made, wouldn't it just keep running?

thanks for your help so far, i'm learning alot
 
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Old 01-07-14, 11:52 AM
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I understand that it's not supposed to constantly run, however if the end switch is not being made, wouldn't it just keep running?
Well... not exactly RUN ... the motor will remain POWERED, but when the valve opens, the motor which is a 'low torque' design will simply 'stall'. Still powered, but not moving.

If the thermostat controlling this valve is calling for heat and the boiler is not fired, no heat will come and that thermostat will keep calling and hold the zone valve until the problem is discovered and repaired.

The motors will likely be damaged in this scenario because they are not rated for continuous duty where they are held open for-ever. They are supposed to be INTERMITTENT duty with time to cool between heating cycles.
 
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Old 01-07-14, 05:13 PM
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update: came home and tried again with the thermo. worked for about 15 minutes and now nothing. the lever freely slides back and forth when the valve is open as desribed above. even now the valve is open but the heat is not flowing to the zone. all other zones are working properly.

any idea wth is going on?
 
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Old 01-07-14, 06:06 PM
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Are you able to purge and get flow that way?
 
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Old 01-07-14, 08:19 PM
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How do i do that? Sorry I'm a beginner with this stuff

Thanks
 
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Old 01-07-14, 08:47 PM
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There's a sticky about proper purging.
 
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Old 01-08-14, 04:34 AM
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here are some pics for reference.
Entire System
[ATTACH=CONFIG]24436[/ATTACH]

Drain on left side of the boiler
[ATTACH=CONFIG]24437[/ATTACH]

Return pipes for all 4 zones
[ATTACH=CONFIG]24438[/ATTACH]

zone valves (4th one not pictured)
problem one is the samwoo valve, others are synchron
[ATTACH=CONFIG]24439[/ATTACH]

Expansion tank
[ATTACH=CONFIG]24441[/ATTACH]

Don't recall the name of this, but I have seen it mentioned in other posts
[ATTACH=CONFIG]24442[/ATTACH]

Taco valve on top of expansion tank
[ATTACH=CONFIG]24443[/ATTACH]

Boiler Pressure/temp (boiler was on at the time)
[ATTACH=CONFIG]24444[/ATTACH]
 
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Old 01-08-14, 04:43 AM
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I'll look into purging the system, but what I don't understand, from my limited knowledge is why it would work for about 10 minutes, then all of a sudden stop working. I have a new valve at home, but I don't want to install it, only for it to fail like the last one, especially at $50 a pop.
My instinct tells me it's the wiring, but I don't know how to check that, or verify that it's working properly. Like I mentioned previously, we haven't had a problem like this with the heat, or that zone especially since the house was built and we moved in. The only time we did have a problem, was the low water cutoff a few years ago, and that sensor/switch was replaced and we were up and running again. The last bill has me looking to figure this stuff out myself, but I may need to call in the professionals.

A side note, the 1st floor had some issues getting up to temp yesterday. Granted it was very cold (single digits), but normally we don't have any problems. We have it set to go down to 65 at night and at 4.45am start warming to 73. At 6.15 the zone temp was only 68, and it wasn't until the afternoon when it finally got to 71, then later it was back to 73. I fear that the performance of the system isn't what it should be? Outside temp shouldn't prevent inside from reaching the desired temperature?
 
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Old 01-08-14, 05:10 AM
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What t stat do you have? Have you changed the batteries in it???

To purge the line for the trouble zone clost the yellow valve here for zone in question... Put hose on hose bib above it and drain some water into a 5 gallon bucket...

Then open the yellow valve and try the zone again...


[ATTACH=CONFIG]24446[/ATTACH]
 
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Old 01-08-14, 05:14 AM
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thanks for the tips to purge. seems easy enough to tackle myself.

Tstat is brand new, fresh batteries

Shop Honeywell 5-2 Day Programmable Thermostat at Lowes.com
 
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Old 01-08-14, 08:52 AM
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To purge the line for the trouble zone clost the yellow valve here for zone in question... Put hose on hose bib above it and drain some water into a 5 gallon bucket...

Then open the yellow valve and try the zone again...
Do I need to cool off the boiler before doing this? Unfortunately I can only do this at night, and by then my kids are sleeping upstairs, so I would prefer to have heat for them if the room gets too cold. How long would it take to drop to 100F or below? Approximately?

Thanks
 
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Old 01-08-14, 09:30 AM
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You can do it when the boilers hot... I see your water feed is piped to the feed of the boiler... It will circulate around the zone before it reaches the boiler.............

You may need to lift the handle on the green fill valve to increase pressure while your bleeding...

Dont raise psi above 25 ....
 
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Old 01-08-14, 09:57 AM
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ok ... can you explain further? I'm a novice with hvac in general, and what I've learned has come from the few (<10) service calls we've made in the past (which cost a pretty penny too).

I'm assuming you mean this?
[ATTACH=CONFIG]24459[/ATTACH]

So I'll need to fill some water as I'm purging the basement zone in order to maintain pressure? And just make sure to not go over 25, got it.

I may give it a shot, and probably will have more questions. I'll try fresh batteries in the tstat again just to make sure, as everything else seems to be in order.

Curious though, why would a purge potentially fix the problem? ie, what caused the initial issue (if the purge works)
 
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Last edited by fmchung23; 01-08-14 at 10:13 AM. Reason: spelling, grammar
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Old 01-08-14, 10:44 AM
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IDK with the basement zone??... Usually the top floors get air bound... Why? Low pressure... leak???

Any other air bleeders on the basement zones..like at the baseboard or anywhere else?? (


I see this air vent...This tank is stained... That chrome device above it in that green air separator.. is it leaking? The cap should be loose on top... Is it???

That is the AAV and needs to be working...



[ATTACH=CONFIG]24463[/ATTACH]


How have you been changing the zone valves? Just the head only????
 
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Old 01-08-14, 11:30 AM
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I'll check the baseboards for bleeder valves and report back.
As for the AAV, it was leaking a few years ago (as seen by the rust on the expansion tank), but the solution from the 'professionals' was to tighten the cap, so from memory I don't think the cap is loose. Again, I will verify.

I have been replacing the head, not the actual valve behind it ... but I've also read that those rarely go bad? At this point, it's worth a shot. Trying to avoid a service call, as they always end up more expensive than we expect.

Thanks for your quick responses, I'm learning alot
 
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