NEW boiler noise and not heating properly, installer won't come back

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  #41  
Old 01-10-14, 05:48 PM
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I'm wondering if this systems isn't air locked real bad. To have it climb all the way up to 215 from a 190 set point seems excessive. Sounds like the water isn't moving.
 
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  #42  
Old 01-10-14, 06:14 PM
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NASA has a saying: There's nothing so bad that you can't make it worse.
A: Once the velocity of the water reaches 2 ft/sec. any air can be pusher down a vertical return.
The vent does need to be open when it gets there.
 
  #43  
Old 01-10-14, 06:36 PM
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Law, to answer you question about that blue handled ball valve, it's the feed for the system. After the valve you can see it leads to a BFP, before the valve it follows very closely to one of the supplies marked "B" on the wall. From what I understand, the guy came back after the install was done and looped some lines together, now the second floor stat somehow controls heat for the second floor and part of the first floor. I explained through PM to try shuting the thermostat down for the first and third floor and see if the second floor gets better, apparently it did. What I think he did was loop part of the first and second floor together somehow and that when both first and second floor are open simultaneously they are fighting each other. We'll see what happens in the next couple days and the homeowner further tries ideas we put out.
 
  #44  
Old 01-10-14, 07:56 PM
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  #45  
Old 01-10-14, 08:00 PM
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  #46  
Old 01-10-14, 08:39 PM
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  #47  
Old 01-10-14, 11:59 PM
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Q: So the old system was on one thermostat not Three?
Q: No zone valves on the old system?

And now the loops are pumped in reverse...

If the first installer added more radiation at the end of the loop to account for a larger delta T, the last room on the loop is now hot and the (now) end room is cool.
 
  #48  
Old 01-11-14, 12:46 AM
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nycsmile
Now: The fire stays on for 3min 20 sec and shuts off at 210F. With all three zones calling for heat it comes back on 7 minutes later.
Q: What was the new burner on temp?

I can't use them together, I can only use on/off times when I know both the time and temp.

I would need this:
Event, time(HH:MM:SS), TEMP
Call for heat, 13:10:01, NA
Burner OFF, 13:10:15, 210 F
Burner _ON, 13:22:40, 190 F
Burner OFF, 13:26:03, 210 F
...
Burner OFF, HH:MM:SS, 210 F

Burner OFF on High Limit to Burner OFF on high Limit is one cycle (not a typo), and to reduce the error I need more than one cycle. From Temp OFF & ON I get Delta T and Average Temp.

This only works when set of zones is known and fixed for the sample series.

Note - A series of samples of any length start & end with Burner OFF on Hight limit.
 
  #49  
Old 01-11-14, 10:15 AM
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Heatworm,

No she did have zone valves on the old system along with 3 stats. But the guy screwed up the piping arrangement and now she gets no flow, or very little, through the second floor loop.
 
  #50  
Old 01-11-14, 10:20 AM
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He should've never tied those two returns together into one line and looped the second floor with the ground floor. Every time he goes back, he's causing more problems.
 
  #51  
Old 01-11-14, 10:29 AM
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nycsmile
Now: The fire stays on for 3min 20 sec and shuts off at 210F. With all three zones calling for heat it comes back on 7 minutes later.
The temperature was set at 190F with that cycle. I will run more tests when I get home.

HeatWorm
Q: So the old system was on one thermostat not Three?
Q: No zone valves on the old system?

And now the loops are pumped in reverse...
I had 3 zone valves, they were on the same side they are now, just horizontal. The zone valve side used to be the return side.
 
  #52  
Old 01-11-14, 10:31 AM
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Smile,

Did you continue trying what I said about shutting off the first and third floors? Did you get better heat on the second floor?
 
  #53  
Old 01-11-14, 10:46 AM
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Every time I look at this I have to chuckle at his "Bozo-icity"


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  #54  
Old 01-11-14, 11:52 AM
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The vent was an after thought. It was probably a straight shot to the zone valves before that. Why it wasnt installed in the first place is an even bigger :NO NO NO:
 
  #55  
Old 01-11-14, 11:57 AM
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RDSTEAM Did you continue trying what I said about shutting off the first and third floors? Did you get better heat on the second floor?
Might have been better, but I was doing this on a 35F degree day as opposed to the 3F-7F when I started the thread.

I also lowered the boiler temperature to just under 180F, as suggested, to see if the third floor noise will improve. It's unusually warm today 57F, so third floor isn't coming on, but I'll see how it goes tonight.

Yes, I had to buy that air vent after because of the babbling brook and drain noise not staying out and when I realized he'd never installed one. When I questioned this (since my old system had one,) he turned on the single outlet drain and said, "this is your air purge, they are not standard, you would have had to request one."
 
  #56  
Old 01-11-14, 12:21 PM
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I guess its standard to take someone's money and leave them with a system that doesn't properly work.
 
  #57  
Old 01-11-14, 01:20 PM
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RDSTEAM
No she did have zone valves on the old system along with 3 stats. But the guy screwed up the piping arrangement and now she gets no flow, or very little, through the second floor loop.
Ok system did have valves before, and that loop going right and exiting foreground is in series.
 
  #58  
Old 01-11-14, 01:33 PM
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I believe so. I think when the second floor stat is on, there's flow through one part of the first floor as well now.
 
  #59  
Old 01-12-14, 01:09 PM
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The top floor noise started when the spirovent was added on to system.






 
  #60  
Old 01-12-14, 01:19 PM
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Ok system did have valves before, and that loop going right and exiting foreground is in series.
I always had 3 zones/valves/thermostats. There were three pipes coming out of the wall to the left that were return pipes, returning through 3 zone valves. There were three pipes going into the top right wall that were supply lines.
 
  #61  
Old 01-12-14, 02:37 PM
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nycsmile
I always had 3 zones/valves/thermostats. There were three pipes coming out of the wall to the left that were return pipes, returning through 3 zone valves. There were three pipes going into the top right wall that were supply lines.
Ok Thank you for the update.
 
  #62  
Old 01-12-14, 03:55 PM
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I believe my top floor noise problem is expansion. Can re-locating the expansion tank and spirovent help with this?

Can lowering the pressure help with that noise? It's a consistent 24psi, never moves. It's for a 3 story house.

Lowering the temperature in the boiler does seem to keep it firing longer.

The outside temperature is 43F
The dial inside boiler has been lowered to just below 180F.

With all three thermostats to 80F to constantly call for heat:

Burner shuts OFF at 190F, stays off for 7min 30 seconds
Buner turns ON at 160F, stays on for 4min 45 seconds
Burner turns OFF at 190F, stays off for 7min 30 seconds
Burner tuns ON at 160F, stays on for 4min 45 seconds
 
  #63  
Old 01-12-14, 04:55 PM
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Expansion tanks are supposed to be installed on the suction side of the system pump, BUT it should be on the system piping not on one specific zone like you explained to me. It shouldn't be located on a single zone like how it is on your indirect zone. Even though the pressure is at 24 PSI, its much less at the top of the system. Depending on the height of the total system, it's somewhere under 10 PSI.
 
  #64  
Old 01-12-14, 06:17 PM
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nycsmile
I believe my top floor noise problem is expansion. Can re-locating the expansion tank and spirovent help with this?
A: Expansion noise is caused by low pressure at the top of the system. N[SUB]2[/SUB] is coming out of solution or less likely water is flashing to steam. The solution is to raise the the pressure at the top of the system with out exceeding the maximum operating pressure of the Pressure Relief Valve (PRV) at the bottom of the system, (for a 30 psig valve that is 25 psig.)

Can lowering the pressure help with that noise? It's a consistent 24psi, never moves. It's for a 3 story house.
A: No, Solubility of air goes down with decreasing pressure and increasing temperature, that's why we place the air sep. at or after the point of no pressure change (Expansion tank) and then pump away. The order of system components is:
For boiler in series
1) Return riser
2) Boiler PRV
3) Supply riser
4) Compression tank
5) Air separator
6) Pump (system and zone pumps)
7) Zone loops
8) Circuit setters
9) Zone valves

CounterPoint How Hydronic System Components Really Work[pdf]

Five Good Reasons to Pump Away![pdf]]
 
  #65  
Old 01-12-14, 07:42 PM
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So again, sorry if I missed answer, can relocating the spirovent and expansion tank help? I don't see that answer but appreciate the links. Like to understand.
 
  #66  
Old 01-12-14, 08:15 PM
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To reply to my post:
1) Methodology is key here.
(2) Burner out = 76,000BTU x 0.20833 = 18,750BTU,
Dynamic Efficiency is: 73.0% and 13,696 BTU into water (w/3% as standby loss)
Burner out = 90,000BTUH x (12.5/60) = 18,750BTUH
 
  #67  
Old 01-12-14, 08:33 PM
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nycsmile
So again, sorry if I missed answer, can relocating the spirovent and expansion tank help? I don't see that answer but appreciate the links. Like to understand.
A: No. You need to move the pump and the zone valves.

Q: Where is the expansion tank connected?
 

Last edited by HeatWorm; 01-12-14 at 10:56 PM.
  #68  
Old 01-13-14, 05:57 AM
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If I understand correctly the expansion take is located on the loop for the indirect water heater. :NO NO NO:
 
  #69  
Old 01-13-14, 09:18 AM
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Re: Location of expansion tank

See Reply #59, 2nd picture and Reply #5 4th picture. It is on the floor, on the return from the water tank to the boiler. It seems to me that this loop is only active if water tank zone valve opens and calls for water from boiler.
 
  #70  
Old 01-13-14, 12:47 PM
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nycsmile
... It is on the floor, on the return from the water tank to the boiler. It seems to me that this loop is only active if water tank zone valve opens and calls for water from boiler.
Ok. Well this time our plumber is getting another D' (Location is functional only) instead of an F'.
 
  #71  
Old 01-13-14, 01:16 PM
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nycsmile
With all three thermostats to 80F to constantly call for heat:

Burner shuts OFF at 190F, stays off for 7min 30 seconds
Buner turns ON at 160F, stays on for 4min 45 seconds
Burner turns OFF at 190F, stays off for 7min 30 seconds
Burner tuns ON at 160F, stays on for 4min 45 seconds
A: This boiler is short cycling!!!
CGi-4E
OFF 190 F, 450 seconds
_ON 160 F, 285 seconds [60 sec @ 1/2 fire]
cycle time 735 seconds
cycles/Hr (CPH) 4.898
Delta T 30 F
Burner out = ((60sec/cycle @ 12.5BTU/sec) + (225sec/cycle @ 25 BTU/sec)) * 4.898cycles/Hr = 31,225 BTUH
Burner out = (285sec/cycle @ 25 BTU/sec) * 4.898cycles/Hr = 34,898 BTUH (unadjusted)
effective Burner out @ 4.898 CPH = 90,000 * 31,225/34,898 = 80,527.54 BTUH
Dynamic EFF= 78.4 - 78.8%

BTUH water = 24,487 - 24,604 BTUH

Assuming Delta T of 20 degrees F
BTUH/(500 lbH[SUB]2[/SUB]O/Hr * 20 Deg F) = GPM @ 20deg Delta T F
24,487/(500*20) = 2.4487 GPM
24,604/(500*20) = 2.4604 GPM

Taco 007 pump curve: 9.5 ft-H[SUB]2[/SUB]O @ 2.5 GPM
 
  #72  
Old 01-13-14, 02:22 PM
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I think the short cycling is the least of her worries, at this point a little comfort would be nice. This system needs to be repiped and thats it. Once that's done, you will see a huge change.
 
  #73  
Old 01-14-14, 04:31 PM
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HeatWorm
A: This boiler is short cycling!!!
As in an over/undersized boiler or venting issue or other? Or is this just part of the heat loss/inefficiency from the set up? I notice that running one zone at a time gives me even worse times than the three together.

RDSTEAM
This system needs to be repiped and thats it. Once that's done, you will see a huge change.
Noise and temperature wise?
 
  #74  
Old 01-14-14, 04:49 PM
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Yes noise and temp wise. You should be able to get your whole house to a minimum of 70.
 
  #75  
Old 01-14-14, 06:16 PM
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So, what's the plan?

Is there one?
 
  #76  
Old 01-14-14, 06:41 PM
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Not sure. I told her to go after the guy in court.
 
  #77  
Old 01-15-14, 12:00 PM
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My long term goal is to save up to re-pipe.

My short term goal is to learn from you, or anyone else, how this is going to solve my problem. Right now I could not go to court because I can't answer the question, "Why is his piping wrong?" "How will re-repiping fix your problem?"

HeatWorm says the system is short cycling. If the boiler is the wrong size then the re-pipe might not solve everything, correct? Is there a way for me to figure that out?

In the meantime I've tried lowering the boiler to 170F to see if it will help with the noise.

Whether it's on 190F, 180F or 170F it still stays off until it gets to 30F below that temperature before coming back on. Can this be changed?
 
  #78  
Old 01-15-14, 01:22 PM
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NY,
It's up to you but the fact that you don't get heat should be enough. It's not your job to know why.
As far as the boiler short cycling, that's to your advantage in court.For the boiler to short cycle it would have to be oversize or not circulating the heated water to the emitters which obviously is what's happening in your case since you can't get sufficient heat.

Anything you can get back from that guy would be a help. It's not going to be cheap to repipe considering that mess or at least part of it will have to be removed.

Good Luck,
 
  #79  
Old 01-15-14, 01:47 PM
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Right now I could not go to court because I can't answer the question, "Why is his piping wrong?" "How will re-repiping fix your problem?"
You need to get a competent plumber in there to check how the system is piped...

I cant tell much from the pics... Some type of diagram would help...

Needs to be compared to this... You need to find out if zones are crossed or something...

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And here with indirect....

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Thats a 90k btu boiler.. That boiler will heat a little less then a 4000 sq ft home... Is your house that big or bigger????



A lot of posts here but nothing seems to be getting done IMO... We cant tell you whats wrong.. Its hard when we are not there... But something is wrong if its not heating the home...

Until you get someone in there its all a big guess as to what piping goes where.........

just my opinion.....
 
  #80  
Old 01-15-14, 03:01 PM
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All of the information we are giving you is trade knowledge. 99% of homeowners don't know this stuff, so your case in court would basically be, " I spent X amount of money, i have noise issues, my house is not being properly heated, my piping is now criscorssed and the installer wont come back and fix it." You can give the judge all of the mumbo jumbo we are telling you but the fact is, he won't know what you're talking about. Bottom line is, you paid, it doesn't work, installer wont come back to fix it. End of story. In my eyes, thats an EASY win for you. Sue him for the max in small claims, whatever that is in New York.
 
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