No Heat in 1 Zone and Purged Air of System Feed pipe is Hot But Return is Cold

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  #41  
Old 01-16-14, 05:41 PM
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Here are the details:

1) I shut the boiler switch and let cool to about 100 degrees which took about 30 min

2) I shut the main water feed to the boiler

3) I drained the return line until the system read ~0psi. my guess is about 1 psi... I was afraid to drain too much out of the system since you explicitly mention not to drain the whole system

4) when I connect my pressure gauge I saw a small amount of water shoot out and the gauge read the same as the system ~1psi

According to the thread the expansion tank needs to be replaced? The water that came out of the air valve was probably equivalent to 2-3 drop from an eye dropper, but that is "ANY". Should I try to recharge or should I go for the replacement?
 
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  #42  
Old 01-16-14, 05:58 PM
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So you see that there was little or no air in that tank, despite the 'tap test', and the 'feel the temp' test! Now you know why I put zero confidence in either of those tests.

According to the thread the expansion tank needs to be replaced? The water that came out of the air valve was probably equivalent to 2-3 drop from an eye dropper, but that is "ANY". Should I try to recharge or should I go for the replacement?
Since at the time you pressed the valve and got a few drops of water out there was no pressure on the boiler, it is POSSIBLE that there is MORE water in the tank and simply isn't coming out because there is no pressure on the system to push it out. In theory, that tank could be FULL of water!

I would plan on replacing the tank. While doing so, add those extra valves I talk about at the end of the thread.

Until you have time to replace the tank, you need to run the heat still... so you really don't have much choice but to try and recharge it. You may end up with air getting into the system if the diaphragm is compromised, but what other choice do you have at this time?

I guess you could run to home depot and hope they have one... if you DO, make sure you get the correct SIZE tank and that it is one for a HEATING SYSTEM. There are also tanks for POTABLE water systems and they should not be used on a heating system. They cost more too. That tank should run around $35-$40 or so.
 
  #43  
Old 01-16-14, 06:12 PM
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Thanks NJ! I'm quite confident this is the issue... at least one of them. I don't know if it matters but when I did my first "incorrect" service when the system was pressurized I noticed about the same amount of water maybe 3-4 total drops of water. That was at about 17psi

I wont have time to change out the system tonight I have to go back to work but I will be able to do it on Sunday morning. I will report back then. I like the addition of the ball valve and spiket and will be sure to add that to the system.

Until then I charged the expansion tank pressure back up to 12psi and will run the system as it has been running. I will report again on Sunday.

And just for the record I never had doubts on your knowledge based on other threads I read previously while trying to solve the problem. Me trying to be proactive can get me into trouble sometimes.
 
  #44  
Old 01-16-14, 06:20 PM
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And just for the record I never had doubts on your knowledge based on other threads I read previously while trying to solve the problem. Me trying to be proactive can get me into trouble sometimes.
I knew that! No worries... you just need to be careful about who you believe on the internet. Did you know that I'm also a Rocket Surgeon? It's true, because I said so on the internet! ha ha ha

Unless you can see someone's 'creds', take everything they say with a big grain of salt.
 
  #45  
Old 01-18-14, 11:19 AM
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Hi NJ I'm going to get my expansion tank ball valve with spiket and nipple today.

I have a quick question about the correct size of the expansion tank.

I went to pexsupply.com and used the expansion tank calculator and looks like I need the Extrol #30 which is what I have installed now. The question I have is 129 MBH = 129k BTU/hr. This is what is stated on my boiler.

I can assume the existing one is the correct size but a buddy of mine was telling me his system was installed with incorrectly sized tank that kept failing when replaced until he had a guy come in that realized the tank was not the right size for his system.

I don't want to run into that issue. Anyway going to get it now will be able to check the message from my phone. And can always return if its the wrong size.

Thanks

Calculator:
Expansion Tank Size Calculator - PexSupply.com

Post edit: By the way I just read through some other threads before going out to buy the parts. Looks like my boiler is over sized by about 30%. My house is in northern MA (near NH) made in 1950 about 1800 sqft but renovated with reasonable insulation/windows so should be around 99k BTUs according to pex calc. I will be converting to gas this year so will need to do more research on this topic soon.
 

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  #46  
Old 01-18-14, 12:32 PM
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The question I have is 129 MBH = 129k BTU/hr.
Yes. MBH = thousands of BTUH

If it's been fine all these years with a #30, then you will be OK to replace with same.
 
  #47  
Old 01-25-14, 07:40 AM
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Hi Nov, I've moved your question to it's own thread... with appropriate title... please respond to new thread, not here.
 
  #48  
Old 01-28-14, 07:06 PM
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Hi NJ I'm back after a crazy week at work. I bought the parts last week and installing now. Last weekend made the assembly for on top the expansion tank. They didn't have the combo valve;
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Had one question, I tested the psi in the new tank before I installed it fresh out the box. I noticed a small amount of water spray from the air valve about the same as my existing tank after de-pressurizing the system- is this normal?
 
  #49  
Old 01-28-14, 07:11 PM
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Don't use the PEX calculator, use the slant fin one, they actually calculate a real number based on window types amount of glass, insulation type and other stuff. The PEX calculator asks sq footage and how tight your home is. That's not a calculation.
 
  #50  
Old 01-28-14, 07:34 PM
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They didn't have the combo valve
No, you won't find them at the big box stores.

I noticed a small amount of water spray from the air valve about the same as my existing tank after de-pressurizing the system- is this normal?
Well..................... the only way I think the water could have gotten in there is if they have a 'wet' source of compressed air in the factory, they probably don't empty the water traps regularly, and it condensed inside the tank after they filled it. I wouldn't worry about it.
 
  #51  
Old 01-28-14, 07:34 PM
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RD, he's not talking about heat loss estimates, but rather expansion tank sizing calculator.
 
  #52  
Old 01-28-14, 07:39 PM
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Post #45 at the bottom. PEX calculates 90k
 
  #53  
Old 01-28-14, 08:00 PM
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My house is in northern MA (near NH) made in 1950 about 1800 sqft but renovated with reasonable insulation/windows so should be around 99k BTUs according to pex calc. I will be converting to gas this year so will need to do more research on this topic soon.
Oh my... I _TOTALLY_ missed that altogether!

Yeah, that's pretty whack, 99K BTUH for an 1800 sq ft home. That's WAY over the top! One could probably easily heat a 3000 sq ft home with a boiler that size!

DJ, at the top of the forum there is a 'sticky' post with a website that still has the old Slant Fin heat loss program. Download that and give it a shot. The learning curve is not to steep for that program and if you have any questions about it there are a few of us here that are familiar with it.

Shooting from the hip, I can tell you that the SF program is probably going to come out at around 60K, maybe a little less, and that's INCLUDING a 'safety factor' of about 20%.
 
  #54  
Old 01-28-14, 08:22 PM
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Ok so the new tank is on and I bled the system again. A lot of air came out but I still get hot water only flowing to the main upstairs zone, zone2.

Let's restart...
 
  #55  
Old 01-28-14, 08:25 PM
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Let's restart...
OK... I'll re=read the whole thread and see if we can't get this sussed. not tonight though, bleary eyed... can't hardly see!
 
  #56  
Old 01-28-14, 08:31 PM
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I opened all 3 zones manually and only 2nd zone baseboards get hot. This is the main floor zone. 2 basement zones are still cold.

For zone 3 pipes get hot after zone valves for about a 10' stretch - 4' is horizontal from zone valve while 6' is straight down to foot level and over to baseboard. I notice the pipe goes cold right at the elbow at the bottom. This means I'm air bound!? So I bled the zone and water flows fine no air comes out.

I'm convinced I'm not bleeding the system properly.
 
  #57  
Old 01-28-14, 08:38 PM
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Today, 10:25 PM
NJ Trooper
Let's restart...
OK... I'll re=read the whole thread and see if we can't get this sussed. not tonight though, bleary eyed... can't hardly see!
Ok thanks NJ luckily my main zone operates normally so it's not extremely critical. At least I have a cool new addition to my expansion tank

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  #58  
Old 01-28-14, 09:12 PM
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Updated diagram

Top drawing basement level
Bot drawing main floor

Thick lines on interior represent baseboard locations

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  #59  
Old 01-31-14, 06:57 PM
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Hey NJ, I'll have time this weekend to work on the Boiler. Actually will have a relatively low key weekend
 
  #60  
Old 02-01-14, 08:04 PM
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OK here's the latest...

After the new installation of the expansion tank and a week passing I still don't have heat in zones 1 or 3

I decided to try to bleed the system again...

I drained zone 1 at the spiket near the boiler (end of line) using the following procedure:
1) shut return ball valve to the boiler
2) shut the power switch to the system
3) attached drain hose to return spiket near boiler to pour into 5 gal bucket
4) manually opened zone 1 - zone valve
5) drained until all dirty water was gone ~ 3 buckets full
6) occasionally manually increased the input water pressure to ~25-30psi

I repeated this process for zones 2 and 3

I noticed some air come out but nothing significant

Then I looked at my 4th zone that I have not thought to bleed previously. I think you were getting to this in a previous post but got derailed. By opening the closed ball valve (if you remember this zone does not have a zone valve) I was able to bleed zone 4 as well.

BAM! a ton of air was coming out and lots of extremely loud pipe banging while I was bleeding the system. My thoughts are that the return of zone 4 can be the cause of my issues if there's air in zone 4? Zone 4 is very short but goes up to the main level mud room.

So I figured I would do one more bucket before I end. I opened all zone valves including the 4th zone ball-valve and drained a bucket or 2. The water was completely clean indicating fresh water ran through the entire system.

I put the system back to normal and turned on zone 1 (farther away basement zone) After almost an hour and the heat cranked I notice the baseboard pipe without the heat fins gets a relatively hot (touchable) but the opposite side(away from boiler) of the baseboard pipe is cool (~10' stretch)

And the following from post #56 still applies for zone 3:
For zone 3 - pipes get hot after zone valves for about a 10' stretch. 4' is horizontal from zone valve while 6' is straight down to foot level and over to baseboard. I notice the pipe goes cold right at the elbow at the bottom. This means I'm air bound!? So I bled the zone and water flows fine no air comes out.

One thing to note because zones 1 and 3 are not working properly the pipe insulation on the return pipe melted to the pipe (the return near the boiler). Don't know if this information is worth anything.
 
  #61  
Old 02-01-14, 08:09 PM
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DJ, I don't think your pump is working...

Let me re-scan the thread again and see if I get the same feeling...
 
  #62  
Old 02-01-14, 09:17 PM
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I think your pump is not working.

Started thinking that all the way back in #21...

Got derailed... you never checked how long it takes for heat to come around in the main zone, that's why I wanted you to do that because I suspected the pump.

I believe main zone has been working on gravity flow all along.

Change pump and you'll be back in business... 99% sure of this.

Nice thing about that new valve by expansion tank, you can use that to drain only that upper pipe.

Close valve to right of pump, close valve on return to boiler, drain only that upper section of pipe that the pump is on.

If I wasn't reasonably sure about this I wouldn't suggest it... but yeah, I'm reasonably sure.
 
  #63  
Old 02-01-14, 10:13 PM
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Just to ask, as you were bleeding each zone your sure the other zone valves were closed and not stuck open. I hate not having individual shut off valves and bleeders on each zone (supply and return) so you can really force that one zone your working on.

My friends system had that one common bleed and zone valves and over the years doing other stuff had to purge system. Bleeding into 5 gal on bucket took forever and still air issues. Went for hose out window instead. Finally installed ball valve and drain at each return one year (and ball before zone valve) just in case so he could isolate zones better.

Since it's been real cold and those zones aren't working I still wouldn't rule out frozen section like NJT said. All it takes is one small area and it hasn't gotten that warm out to thaw yet. Trace all the pipes on those zones if possible and see if any are uninsulated by sill plates, cantalevers, soffits etc. Even insulated pipes in unheated areas (attics/overhangs) can freeze pretty quick especially at the temps you've had since this thread started. Were any of those t-stats on setback?

You say zone 4 is hot water (as in indirect water heater I presume). If you've had hot water for showers and house has been decently warm with all the cold days on that one zone, I just have a hard time seeing gravity flow supplying enough with no pump flowing for all that.

How many days over freezing after you noticed problem originally? How cold right before that? My aunt in Adams (Berkshires NW MA) had multiple frozen pipes in her house as her boiler stopped working for less than one day. It was like -15 overnight (January 4th or 5th I think) and the poly insulation wrapped pipes in insulated joists above her unheated garage froze into her bedroom.
 

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  #64  
Old 02-01-14, 10:35 PM
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Yeah... ya know, I forgot about the indirect...
 
  #65  
Old 02-02-14, 08:24 AM
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Change pump and you'll be back in business... 99% sure of this.
NJ! I knew I was forgetting to post something last night.

I wanted to mention that I noted after I turned the system back on I noticed the pump was making a low gurgling type of sound that was sputtering as if there was air in it. Also seemed that the pump was either moving at very slow RPM or possibly having problems.

Is there a decent video or a guide that I can read on changing the circulator pump? I assume its not to difficult but would like to research before I attempt

Thanks again
 

Last edited by djpardi; 02-02-14 at 09:24 AM.
  #66  
Old 02-02-14, 08:29 AM
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Sequoiasoon,

Thanks for the info. Yeah I am sure the other zone valves were closed, I could feel tension on the manual leveler indicating it was closed.

I agree I wish my system had ball valves for each zone it would be more assuring. and your right the 5gal bucket is a pain.

The temp around here has been much warmer in the past few days. It was a heat wave yesterday in MA! We hit 45 degrees!
 
  #67  
Old 02-02-14, 09:23 AM
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Nj a additional comment to post #65. When zone 2 the working upstairs zone calls for heat should the return line rapidly get hot or should this take a few minutes if the pump is operating normally?
 
  #68  
Old 02-02-14, 10:17 AM
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I wanted to mention that I noted after I turned the system back on I noticed the pump was making a low gurgling type of sound that was sputtering as if there was air in it. Also seemed that the pump was either moving at very slow RPM or possibly having problems.
Sounds not good...

Is there a decent video or a guide that I can read on changing the circulator pump?
Offhand, not that I know of, but I'm sure a search on YouTube would turn up something. Thing about that is though that you might find one that tells you to drain the entire system, and you do NOT need to do that.

1. TURN BOILER OFF and allow to cool to 100F or less.

2. CLOSE the ball valve on the water feed line.

2. CLOSE the ball valve to the right of the pump.

3. CLOSE the ball valve at the boiler return.

4. Attach drain hose to new spigot at expansion tank.

5. DRAIN until no more water comes out. This will drain only that small section of pipe between the elbow and the closed valve to the right of the pump. You will probably hear air 'sucking' in at the air vent on the SpiroVent.

5a. When pipe is drained, CLOSE drain.

6. Remove cover from electrical box on pump and disconnect wires. Remove cable from pump. (you can leave the box connector on the cable, remove the big nut on the inside and pull out cable with connector still on cable)

7. There may be some water still in the pump body, so a bucket, or plastic, or towels, to catch the water that comes out is a good idea. Obviously, don't get water on any controls.

8. LOOSEN all four bolts first, then remove them and the pump being careful not to drop the pump on your foot!

9. Clean up the flanges with some scotch brite if there is any 'crud' on them.

10. Position gaskets in grooves on face of pump. Might be a bit of a juggling act to get the pump in without the gaskets falling out, but next step is to reinstall pump.

Eyeball the flanges and try to get them 'centered' as close as possible.

HAND TIGHTEN all four bolts first evenly. Rotate around tightening the bolts evenly. Don't tighten one at a time, you want to them to pull evenly. Try to keep the flanges parallel to each other as you tighten

They don't need to be 'gorilla tight', only enough to compress the gasket with no leaks.

11. Reconnect cable to pump.

12. Slowly open water feed valve. feed water slowly and you should hear air coming OUT of the SpiroVent. When air stops, boiler should pressurize to valve setting... 12 PSI or so.

13. Check for leaks at pump flange, tighten a bit more if necessary.

14. OPEN valve to right of pump.

15. OPEN valve on boiler return.

16. RESTART boiler and check operation.

17. During the next couple weeks keep an eye on the flanges for leaks and snug up bolts if necessary.

That's pretty much it...
 
  #69  
Old 02-02-14, 10:27 AM
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When zone 2 the working upstairs zone calls for heat should the return line rapidly get hot or should this take a few minutes if the pump is operating normally?
Depends on whether the boiler is already hot or not...

A hundred feed of 3/4" pipe holds about 2 gallons of water.

If pump is flowing 'design' of 4 GPM, we could say that in about 30-40 seconds you should feel heat if the boiler is already hot. It's going to be cooler coming back of course, but you should feel it.

I suppose it could be that the pump is working 'slowly' and still has enough power to go UP, and maybe even heat the indirect, but not enough to pump DOWN...

I know it's a long shot, but what else have we got?
 
  #70  
Old 02-02-14, 11:12 AM
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well it seems logic NJ! I agree to that. It also seems do-able.

So I sounds like the pump should slide out from each end once the electric is disconnected and 4 bolts are removed. I'll look into getting a new pump and check to find a video as an example
 
  #71  
Old 02-02-14, 11:15 AM
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wow it does seem easy... I should have been a plumber :-)

Replacing a Circulator Pump - YouTube
 
  #72  
Old 02-02-14, 11:24 AM
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Ok Well looks like it cost just under 100 bucks for the pump. Probably $300 to have a plumber install it.

The link below has the same specifications as my pump and cost $75 it looks like I need 3/4" fittings... just have to double check pipe diameter

007-F5-7IFC - Taco 007-F5-7IFC - 007 Cast Iron Circulator with Integral Flow Check, 1/25 HP
 
  #73  
Old 02-02-14, 11:36 AM
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You don't have to change any fittings, you will use the ones that you have installed already... it's 'plug and play' replacement.

You do NOT want the one with the IFC in it though... you have zone valves, you don't need the check valve.

007-F5 - Taco 007-F5 - 007 Cast Iron Circulator, 1/25 HP

Enter Code SAVE5 at Checkout for $5 Off the 007-F5!

You MIGHT have to rotate the motor housing though... you want the electric box on TOP or SIDES

Rotating body – Body has an arrow on the front that indicates direction of flow. To rotate body, remove the four body bolts, rotate body and replace bolts. Make sure that the junction box is NOT located underneath the circulator. (The junction box must NOT be located in the 6 o’clock position, as viewed from the motor end.)
Make sure you point the flow arrow to the RIGHT! You would not be the first person to install a pump backwards if you do reverse it.
 
  #74  
Old 02-02-14, 11:40 AM
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OK I wont install the pump backwards but I'm sure its easy to do!

I will order the pump today.

Just a question though... when do replace the cartridge vs. replace the whole pump? Is it better to just replace the whole thing?
 
  #75  
Old 02-02-14, 12:48 PM
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Considering that the cartridge alone is so close to the price of a whole new pump, it doesn't seem to make much sense to me...

007-042RP - Taco 007-042RP - Taco Pump Replacement Cartridge TAC007-042RP (for 007CI)

But is IS another possible solution...
 
  #76  
Old 02-02-14, 01:01 PM
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ok that's what I figured.
 
  #77  
Old 02-08-14, 07:20 AM
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NJ thanks so much for your help. I just changed out the circulator pump and zone 3 return got hot instantly. Also now getting heat in zone1. It was a very easy job

If your in Massachusetts or ever come by let me know. I owe you a nice dinner or some steaks on the barbie
 
  #78  
Old 02-08-14, 09:56 AM
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Throw in some Sam Adams and I'll be there in a few hours!

Kinda strange that even in this cold weather that you were able to get enough gravity flow to heat the home!

So it's all good now, happy heating!
 
  #79  
Old 02-08-14, 10:43 AM
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Kinda strange that even in this cold weather that you were able to get enough gravity flow to heat the home
AND the indirect water heater!
 
  #80  
Old 02-08-14, 10:59 AM
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AND the indirect water heater!
Yeah, no kidding! This is one for the books to be sure!
 
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