radiant heating actuator issue

Reply

  #41  
Old 01-18-14, 03:06 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 45
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I can do that! Thanks trooper. I'll let you know how it goes
 
Sponsored Links
  #42  
Old 01-18-14, 03:19 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
Here's a 'pictorial' drawing of how I would run the wiring.

Use 14/3 MC from the J-box to each of the relays. The RED wire will be the 'runner' back to the pump.

Run the pump wire to the J-box also.

This makes for a much easier wiring job at the relay boxes, just one fat cable in each, more room for the low voltage wiring.



Grounds not shown for clarity, but they of course must be connected!
 
  #43  
Old 01-18-14, 06:12 PM
poorplmbr's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: long island ,new york
Posts: 296
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Just my 2 cents here once again guys but..those actuators take 3 to as long as 5 minutes to open..using those 501 relays will turn on the pump as soon as the thermostat calls and the pump will dead head untill flow is established. ..seems like a pressure differential valve is in order..
 
  #44  
Old 01-18-14, 06:20 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 45
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Hmmm..... I wonder if my impatience is the issue here. Is it possible that I didn't wait long enough for them to open?
 
  #45  
Old 01-18-14, 06:26 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
Poor, that's what I was trying to find out when I was searching for the spec sheets.

And what you are saying is that it's a HEAT MOTOR type of valve... which explains the difference between the WATTAGE rating and the CURRENT rating that I saw on the spec sheet.

Being a HEAT MOTOR, it will draw .25 A to start, and then when the valve opens it will draw less, but intermittently go to .25 ... just like the Taco valves.

It all makes sense now!

Yes, hook it up, call for heat, and wait.
 
  #46  
Old 01-18-14, 06:28 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
seems like a pressure differential valve is in order..
And since there is a spare port on the manifolds, it could be installed there...

... but then I wonder, would it REALLY hurt the pump to dead head for a couple minutes while the valve opened?
 
  #47  
Old 01-18-14, 06:53 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 45
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Just over 4 minutes that's what it took to open!

You guys rock!
 
  #48  
Old 01-18-14, 06:59 PM
poorplmbr's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: long island ,new york
Posts: 296
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Um yeah...no, not very healthy for a pump. Centrifugal Pump Protection - Engineers Edge
 
  #49  
Old 01-18-14, 08:16 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 45
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I used your first diagram. It was with the parts that I already had on hand, and it worked perfectly.

I owe you a beer!

And don't worry about the pump flowing with no open actuators. Until I set up a loop, I'll keep the bathroom one open (no actuator) and put the actuator in for the bedroom loop. The bathroom is usually colder and calls for heat far more often. Now when the bathroom needs to heat up it will only heat the bathroom. If the bedroom needs heat, it will heat both until I put the loop in. I can live with that!
 
  #50  
Old 01-18-14, 08:22 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
I know it's not a good thing... but what I'm wondering is if 4 minutes at a time will really be harmful.

I'm pretty sure that you can overcome this problem very easily and not even need the diff bypass valve.

Just loop the two empty ports together on the manifold.

Set the flow in the looped back port for say 1 GPM.

There will be PLENTY of leftover 'power' in the pump to pump the two zones in ADDITION to the looped back one.
 
  #51  
Old 01-18-14, 08:23 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
I'll keep the bathroom one open (no actuator)
Yup, that'll work too!......................

DO experiment with turning the pump speed down. You may find that you can still get the same flow at medium... probably not slow, but try it anyway. No sense running the pump any harder than you have to to get the flow you need.

Also DO monitor the temperature of the transformers. If you find them getting HOT then you will need to use plan B.
 
  #52  
Old 01-18-14, 08:36 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 45
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I did turn the pump to medium. The flow was barely affected. The lowest saying was more noticeable. It's not too cold here on LI tonight, but hopefully I'll be able to discern if the the heat is uniform at the medium setting.

I'll check the transformers periodically as well.

I can't thank you enough. I have struggled with this for a while, trying to get the plumber who installed it to make it right. I finally gave up on him!
 
  #53  
Old 01-19-14, 05:09 AM
poorplmbr's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: long island ,new york
Posts: 296
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I do still have one more concern, and that is powering the pump with two different feeds at the same time...seems to me that you may be "back feeding" one relay when the other comes on and possibly blowing a fuse..or worse... I will see what i can find out about this...maybe ask the guys in the electric forum.Till then I would wait on the wiring...
 
  #54  
Old 01-19-14, 05:55 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 45
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I had wired it up last night and it worked flawlessly. Neither transformer is too hot. My bedroom was far more comfortable because it wasn't heating when the bathroom stat called for heat. Between that and turning down my aquastat to a low of 130- I believe my oil usage will go down- a much welcome relief. In the last polar vortex I was averaging almost 5 gals per day in my small 1400 sq foot ranch.

Next step is insulation.

I'll definitely keep on eye on things- particularly when both stats call for heat. My question is, both controllers are powered by one line, and the pump is powered by the same line- in series I guess. How would that back feed?
 
  #55  
Old 01-19-14, 07:18 AM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
powering the pump with two different feeds
There's only one feed Poor... it is just two relays in parallel, nothing at all wrong with that?

Where do you see two feeds?

averaging almost 5 gals per day in my small 1400 sq foot ranch
That is a bit extreme. I think my highest per day usage during that period was not even 5 gall... my old system, yes, I would burn 5 gall on a really cold day, but the new system I think the highest I've seen was around 4 gall. overnight Jan 3/4 when it dipped to 4.3 here. I'm in a 1900 sq ft 2 floor converted cape.

Do you realize that 5 gall of fuel oil averages out to about 30K BTUH heat loss?

5 gall x 140,000 BTU/GALL = 700K / 24 hrs = 29,167 BTUH

Not that much really! I bet if you ran the heat loss software your home would come in around 40K BTUH.

When you are up in the attic doing the insulation, be sure to seal any and all penetrations, no matter how small, that you find for plumbing or electrical with expanding foam. You really need to seal the attic for air infiltration from below. That warm moist air coming out of those small holes will condense in the insulation. Wet insulation is not... and then there's the mold issues afterward.

Air infiltration accounts for a larger percentage of heat loss than does lack of insulation. Any air that can escape into the attic needs to be replaced with cold air drawn in from the lower levels of the home. Put a cap on that 'heat chimney' and you reduce the forces that want to pull that cold air in at the bottom.

Take the attic up to R-40 and be very careful to seal air leaks. Overkill, maybe... worth it? I think so.
 
  #56  
Old 01-19-14, 09:06 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 45
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I'm going to run two by sixes perpendicular to the current two by fours then I'm spraying the cellulose insulation and put the plywood over the top. This will be over the current and very old fiberglass batts.

Of course this will be after using great stuff and sealing all the holes!

It's a little scary how excited I am for this project.
 
  #57  
Old 01-19-14, 09:18 AM
poorplmbr's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: long island ,new york
Posts: 296
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I suppose you are correct as far as the electric goes...still not happy about possibe dead head situation though. Glad to see that you are going to address infultration and insulation, it will make a huge difference.
 
  #58  
Old 01-19-14, 09:42 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 45
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I'll use the third and unused port of my manifold to create a small but always open loop. I may even add radiant wall heat with the excess port in a small and always cold bathroom close to the manifold now. (I'll always leave it open) Until then, the master bathroom loop is left open. This should circumvent the dead head issue.
 
  #59  
Old 01-19-14, 04:12 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
small and always cold bathroom close to the manifold now.
Sounds like a great place for a heated towel rack!
 
  #60  
Old 01-19-14, 04:57 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 45
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Ha! I don't want to spoil my kids!
 
  #61  
Old 01-19-14, 05:02 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
One of my wise-a55 relatives asked me if my kids were spoiled...

I replied, "Nahhh, they always smell like that!"
 
  #62  
Old 01-19-14, 06:21 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 45
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I'm stealing that. Definitely stealing that.
 
Reply

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Display Modes
 
Ask a Question
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: