Trying to bleed system

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Old 01-26-14, 04:31 PM
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Trying to bleed system

Hey all. I have been trying to bleed the air out of my system and am not sure if its going as planned. On the second picture I close the lower valve and open the top one to bleed the air. I get big bubbles of air right away then it runs smooth. I close it, wait 10 seconds, and repeat. I've done this about 100 times approx. and still get big bubbles every single time. Is there a chance that I have THAT much air in my system, or is something else going on? I do have heat coming from the baseboards but veryyyy little.

Also the burner does not stay on until max temp is reached. I've heard this is due to the air in the system preventing it from circulating properly so the boiler actually overheats and shuts off? Any help would be verrrrry appreciated seeing as we are living off of space heaters for the moment and NJ is in a deep freeze. Any questions I'll do my best to answer (without much knowledge of this)
 
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Old 01-26-14, 04:39 PM
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Hi James,

Tell us what the PRESSURE and TEMPERATURE gauge on your boiler is reading.

A little about the home too, one story? two story?
 
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Old 01-26-14, 04:40 PM
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Right I meant to put that stuff lol. The home is 2 story, fairly small. And the pressure is around 22 PSI, temp around 180F
 
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Old 01-26-14, 05:03 PM
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In your last photo, if I see what I think I see, there is Type NM electric cable (a.k.a. Romex) draped around in midair. That is a No-No. When the weather permits, that should be corrected.
 
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Old 01-26-14, 05:08 PM
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the pic looks deceiving. It is not in any contact with the pipes
 
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Old 01-26-14, 05:22 PM
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James Iím not an electrical guy (to say the least LOL) but I think the problem is that the NM cable is not fastened up on the side of the joist. Itís supposed to be fastened every few feet (donít remember the code, I think every 4 feet) and it should be at least an 1 ľ from the bottom of the joist.
 
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Old 01-26-14, 05:24 PM
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Let's talk about that other stuff after... stay focused on the problem at hand...
 
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Old 01-26-14, 05:32 PM
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Just to add a little more info. The furnace hasnt run since last winter, and upon getting some oil into the tank, I ran it last week and it ran great. I then ran low on oil and turned it off for two days. Upon receiving 150 gallons, I fired it back up, and now its not hot enough.
 
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Old 01-26-14, 06:25 PM
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hi again James Ė

Well Iím sure Iím not seeing something that the experts missed here, but is that drain above the pump in the first picture supposed to be used for purging? Just thinking that maybe the purge procedure you were using isnít correct and thus you would continue to see air each time you did it? But the proís need to weigh in.

Seems like that 22/180 is good? I think! Maybe the pump isnít running. Wonder if you could use your ear to see if it is in fact running. I can just about hear mine, but I think I can. But I learned here you can use a screwdriver and place the flat end near the pump end and the handle to your ear and you should hear a little whirling sound.

Could be off on a tangent here, but I donít see how listening to the pump could take long or hurt anything? Letís see what the pros say.

Murphyís Law: the worst cold in years and the system decides to act up.

Really hope you get it going very soon.
 
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Old 01-26-14, 06:45 PM
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thanks for the reply zoes. The pump is indeed running, I can hear and feel it. 22/180 is good from what I understand. And as for the other spigot my mother (This was her house up until last summer) always used the one im using now and never had a problem.

I talked to my brother on the phone today and he was a plumber at one time and said that what im doing is what needs to be done and that it could literally takes hours and hours of purging. But I'd like a second expert opinion since it seems a tad overkill that im getting that much air out of our system.
 
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Old 01-26-14, 07:01 PM
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That's great that you have some expertise right in the family. And I bet the pros will probably be back with a second opinion, and you always get really good stuff from the pros here.

Good luck! Hope it doesn't take hours and hours - it is coldddd!
 
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Old 01-26-14, 07:09 PM
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James,
You mentioned bleeding it, shutting it off for 10 sec and turning it on again. Why are you stopping & starting. Are you running low on pressure.
Get your pressure up to at least 25 lbs or so and open your spigot. Mapping the pressure up let it run until it runs smooth.

It sounds like when you stop it's because of low pressure. Then you fill it back up and do it again.
Every time you refill it brings air with it. If that is indeed what's happening you'll never get it bled.

After you have bled as described, shut off the spigot and fastfill valve if you have one allowing no more fresh water to enter.

Drain any additional water getting the pressure down to about 15psi. Open all shutoffs and fire up.

Good Luck,
 
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Old 01-26-14, 07:17 PM
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Hmm I have tried letting it continuously run yesterday (about 50-60 gallons worth) till it ran with very little air coming out (just a couple very small bubbles every few seconds) and it seemed like it would never stop so I figured good enough and I fired it up. But then when the heat still wasn't as it should be, I tried again after like an hour, and right off the bat big bubbles of air. So that led me to think that it's really only effective for the first few seconds. The pressure stays throughout.

My brother did note that we do not have a loop system but rather a "baffle" (sp?) system. He said there are T's in the system where bubbles could be sitting back. Any sense to that? Or am I explaining it wrong?

Also how do I know if I have a fastfill valve? The only valve i've been closing prior to bleeding is the one directly below the spigot.
 
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Old 01-27-14, 06:59 AM
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The pressure stays throughout
You mean you never see the gauge move? If so it is BROKEN.

You can not move ahead until you have a properly functioning pressure gauge on the system so that you know where your pressure is... pressure is IMPORTANT to proper operation.

READ THIS:

http://www.doityourself.com/forum/bo...ure-gauge.html

we do not have a loop system but rather a "baffle" (sp?) system. He said there are T's in the system where bubbles could be sitting back. Any sense to that? Or am I explaining it wrong?
I believe what your brother is saying is that you have a 'diverter tee' system, commonly known as 'Monoflo' (B&G trademark) system, whereby one or more of the tees that connect the radiator branches to a SINGLE main pipe are 'special' tees with a 'baffle' or 'venturi' built into them.

These monoflo systems can be VERY difficult to properly purge, and in order to do so it is that much more imperative that you KNOW what the PRESSURE is in the system...

So get a reference gauge on the system first and then we can continue.

We're also going to insist that you check and charge the air in your EXPANSION TANK, because once you get the pressure right, if your tank isn't right, your pressure relief valve is going to open and spew.

READ THIS:

http://www.doityourself.com/forum/bo...sion-tank.html
 
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Old 01-27-14, 07:03 AM
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how do I know if I have a fastfill valve? The only valve i've been closing prior to bleeding is the one directly below the spigot.
Look for the pipe that feeds water to the boiler piping from the domestic water piping.

On this pipe should be a manual shut off valve and a 'bell shaped' pressure reducing valve.

I just looked back at the pics... that pipe from the water heater, the one that the drunk plumber installed cattywampus, that bell shaped valve on the left is your pressure reducing valve, there should be a lever or a 'bail' that you can lift to feed water at a faster rate... that's your 'fast fill'.

But again, the first order of business is to get a pressure gauge on the system that can be trusted.
 
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Old 01-27-14, 09:19 AM
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James,
If those tees, as trooper said are in fact monoflo tees that explains why you can't bleed the system.
Monoflo tees are a special fitting that forces a portion of water into your emiiters(baseboard or rads) and return into the same pipe.
No amount of water or pressure will bleed that system the way you're trying to do it. That only works for loop systems.

Your system has to be bled by removing the air from each emitter.
Whatever those monoflo tees connect to should have an air vent on the emitter, either at the end of the baseboard or rad before it returns to the main line.

They must be bled individually. That's the only way to remove the air.

As water is filling your system a portion is forced up through the MF tees and all fresh water brings air with it . That air rises up into these emitters and has no way of coming back to the main line. It must be removed from the air vents on the units in order for the water to flow.
Wherever air is trapped water will not flow.
 
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