Weil McClain Boiler Question

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  #41  
Old 02-21-14, 01:21 PM
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Weil McClain GV-5

I see some plumbing and control panel installation on the horizon. From what I understand I'm removing the 3 way valve mounted on the side of the boiler and replacing that with one of the zone valves that I currently have installed on the return side of my baseboard zones. I'm eliminating all the all zone valves and replacing them with a two way flow check valve ( Watts 2000 M3 ). Then replace my current pump and zone valve relay with a Taco SR 506 Switching Relay w/ Priority, and prioritize to DHW zone valve.
How's that sound?
 
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  #42  
Old 02-21-14, 01:35 PM
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What is already installed for the pump and zone valve relay?

removing the 3 way valve mounted on the side of the boiler and replacing that with one of the zone valves
No, that zone valve 'goes away' also. You'll use a pump for the indirect just as you will for the zones. There is already a pump for the indirect as well, no?

Think of the indirect as 'just another zone'.

By the way, I don't recall if you gave us a model number on that indirect... I'd like to study the manual for it as well.

I would actually like to see more pictures... there may be other (better?) suggestions if we can see ALL the piping and controls.
 
  #43  
Old 02-21-14, 02:08 PM
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Weil McClain

The Taco circulator mounted on the boiler runs when ever a zone is calling for heat and when the indirect is calling. The indirect is called a Combo 30, There are some additional photos of the boiler and indirect posted in an earlier thread, The relays that control the zone valves and pumps are Furnas contactors, which are noisy when they close. Hope the info is helpful.
 
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  #44  
Old 02-21-14, 02:41 PM
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Wow what a mess the wiring is...

If you are leaving the circulators you must pipe with close space tees as fig 8 shows in the manual.. This is due to the fact that the boiler has an on board pump...

http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/multim.../gv1manual.pdf


This is how it should be piped.. ignore the boiler in the pic.. Its just for reference...

Note #10 are the flow check valves


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  #45  
Old 02-21-14, 03:06 PM
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Weil McClain

Please explain the close space tee's. The circulator mounted on the boiler need to be rewired so it only runs when the indirect calls, is that correct?
 
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Old 02-21-14, 03:12 PM
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No the boiler circ needs to run anytime there is a call for heat or indirect call...

See in my pic the indirect will have its own pump seperate from the boiler pump.

Also all the heat zones have their own pump...

Answer this for me.... Was the boiler pump rewired by anyone? Does the boiler pump run when the zones circulators call for heat? ( You may have stated this but I forgot)
 
  #47  
Old 02-21-14, 03:14 PM
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Good grief... I can't imagine a pro did that... pretty sure that's a 'homeowner special' right there. BUT, in defense of homeowners, I HAVE seen worse from pros, and some absolutely beautiful jobs from homeowners.

The pump in the boiler runs when ANY zone calls when you use the CSTs.

Mike, sure that diagram is correct? I know it came from WM manual, but won't the indirect pump be in series with the boiler pump?
 
  #48  
Old 02-21-14, 03:17 PM
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Basically the boiler pump will circulate whats in red. The indirect pump in green, and the blue for the zone circs...


All have their own pump...

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  #49  
Old 02-21-14, 03:22 PM
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Mike, sure that diagram is correct? I know it came from WM manual, but won't the indirect pump be in series with the boiler pump?
Hmm good one troop... IDK I have to think about it... The ultra pump( that I removed in the drawing) was located above the indirect return pointing down...
 
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Old 02-21-14, 03:51 PM
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I find it very odd that I am unable to find any reference to that water heater on WMs website other than instructions how to replace the thermostat and dip tube.

I did find a parts list that identifies a 'zone valve' as part of the water heater trim but no idea where that's supposed to be used as there is no install manual to be found.

Mike, you seem to be able to dig stuff up on WM products... any luck?

I think before suggesting any major changes it would be wise to understand exactly how that water heater is supposed to be installed, per WM manual.
 
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Old 02-21-14, 03:55 PM
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The ultra pump( that I removed in the drawing) was located above the indirect return pointing down...
Yes, that's an Ultra diagram... they don't have an internal pump.

So, that setup won't work here.

I would pipe the indirect off the primary loop, either side of the CSTs. That way, the internal boiler pump will not appear in series with the indirect pump.

Something like this:

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Last edited by NJT; 02-21-14 at 04:37 PM.
  #52  
Old 02-21-14, 03:57 PM
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Mike, you seem to be able to dig stuff up on WM products... any luck?
I looked and found nothing... Yes odd IMO..

I found what you did, but also the link here what I posted before about the valve....

But notice its for the 40V.....

http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/multim..._gold_plus.pdf
 
  #53  
Old 02-21-14, 04:00 PM
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But as I stated in post # 28..

But! Is it working for you? How long will the indirect actually call for heat and stop the heat to the home?
Never got an answer, and sometimes leave well enough alone!!!!!
 
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Old 02-21-14, 04:25 PM
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For reference... ( Im searching all docs I can find and may add to this as I go..

To the OP. Can you give exact model # off the combo 30? Or take a pic of the data plate?

Thanks

http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/multim...ins/SB0012.pdf

Wiring

http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/multim...rams/gv-17.pdf

Valve... Obsolete..

http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/multim...s/SB0401R1.pdf
 

Last edited by lawrosa; 02-21-14 at 05:04 PM.
  #55  
Old 02-21-14, 05:25 PM
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The OP may have went away... But I am still interested...

Well I struck Gold..( Pun intended...he he)

Page 38 and 39... Good thing WM puts their crap where it belongs...


http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/multim...ter_manual.pdf


heres the problem...


I assume there are no close spaced tees on the OP's system....Brings backs troops circ question.



Zone valves shown here.

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Circs shown here..

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  #56  
Old 02-21-14, 07:05 PM
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And it may well be piped up that way... still need more pics showing ALL of the piping ... but I kinda sorta doubt it.

If there is NO PUMP on the lines between the indirect and the boiler, THAT PART may be OK.

If the ZONES are not piped in primary/secondary, that part is NOT OK, and the zone valves aren't needed with the pumps.

So, until we know EVERYTHING about how the system is actually piped we should stand down.
 
  #57  
Old 02-22-14, 04:50 AM
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Weil McClain

I am totally confused by both of your comments, I'll explain the system to you again;

The indirect has a 3 way valve that opens and allows the boiler supply to heat the domestic water till it reaches set temp. The boiler has a circulating pump mounted on top of it under the cover that will be activated when the indirect calls for heat.This pump also runs whenever a zone is calling for heat, concurrently with whatever zone pump is running. The 3 way valve closes the supply port to the base board zones which there are 4, when the indirect is calling. If the baseboard zones are calling for heat no water is allowed to pass through the 3 way as it's being diverted to the indirect. That is my biggest problem. As you know and have advised I have 4 Honeywell zone valves and you recommend flow check valves. The second illustration describes the piping as I see it for my system exception being, mine has zone valves not flow restriction valves. Troop has also recommended a Taco Priority control board. This I understand. I would appreciate a singular modification to make my system work as it was intended to.
Thanks
 
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Old 02-22-14, 04:58 AM
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I am totally confused by both of your comments, I'll explain the system to you again;
No need to explain again. Your system is piped like either one of the pics in my post #55... That info was hard to find...

Before we go any further can you take more pics of the boiler piping?

If you chose to repipe some we can help you find the easiest solution with these pics..

Thanks
 
  #59  
Old 02-22-14, 05:12 AM
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Weil McClain

Here are some photos which depict piping from boiler going to the indirect and also overhead shots of Taco Circ. pumps and Honeywell zone valves.
 
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Old 02-22-14, 05:43 AM
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Im pretty sure you need to remove that 3 way. Install a pump and flow contro on the return to the indirect.

Then pipe close space tees somewhere as I show.

Get rid of the zone valves and add flow controls in thier place.

Also add a flow control on the supply as shown..

I believe this is right. let trooper confirm. ( he may draw better pics too...)

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  #61  
Old 02-22-14, 05:46 AM
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Trooper I think suggests moving the indirect connections above the close space tees which would make it its own zone...
 
  #62  
Old 02-22-14, 08:19 AM
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If I get some time this weekend I'll do an 'as built' diagram from what I can see in the pics, I think I have a good idea of what was done wrong... as it appears that Mike does to from his mods of the pictures. Only problem with the way the closely spaced tees are shown is the fact that there is not enough space on either side of the tees... too close to the elbows turning up on each side.

I don't really think that you NEED to do anything with the 3-way valve or add a pump to that because it's basically what is shown in the W-M drawings. The boiler pump itself is sufficient to pump the indirect. W-M is the only manufacturer that I've ever seen that recommends piping the indirect with a 3-way in that fashion. Obviously it's been working all these years... the only 'problem' with it is that there is no 'time out' on the priority. As long as the indirect calls for heat, the flow to the central heating is diverted. If this goes on for more than say a half hour or so during very cold weather, it's being felt in the home. A timer COULD be added to that circuit if needed. Add action item...

The internal boiler pump SHOULD run whenever ANY heat call comes in, and that part appears to be OK.

Let me ask a couple more questions:

What pipe size are the main runs? 1" or 1-1/4" ?

What size is the 3-way zone valve?

It appears that it's a 3/4" model and adapters up to or down from the 1" (or 1-1/4") piping. That should have been the same size valve as the main piping (which, if it's 1" may in fact be technically too small). The smaller valve will 'choke' the flow to the central heat distribution.

Do the main pipes that run across the ceiling 'join' back together in a loop at the ends (out of sight in the pictures), or are they 'capped' into 'dead ends' ?

The zone valves COULD be left in if a control method could be devised so that the pumps stop FIRST and then the zone valves close. For this we would need to dig in and understand what the heck they did with all that contactor wiring on the ceiling.
 
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Old 02-22-14, 11:24 AM
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Weil McClain

Guys, sorry for the delay in my response. I really appreciate how much time and effort you guys are addressing this issue.

What pipe size are the main runs? 1" or 1-1/4" ?
The main runs are 1" but reduce to 3/4 as they T to the Taco pumps and continue 3/4" through the zone valves until they T back to the main 1" return.

What size is the 3-way zone valve
The 3-way is a 3/4" .

Do the main pipes that run across the ceiling 'join' back together in a loop at the ends (out of sight in the pictures), or are they 'capped' into 'dead ends' ?

The 1" supply line terminates by feeding the furthest 3/4" circulator pump through the baseboard zone and returns through the 3/4" zone valve back to the 1' return line


We've been here for 9 years and although I may have noticed the room stats not being satisfied occasionally, this winter has really magnified the lack of hot water circulating through the baseboards. With the indirect trying to maintain its setting the room temps were not reaching 69 deg.

The Furnas contactors are two pole with one side powering the pump and the other side energizing the zone valve. I have a lot of water hammer caused by water flowing while another zone is still active and one zone closes. I removed one of the springs from the Honeywell V8043 zone actuator but it doesn't seem to make a difference.
The boiler may be wired in series with the thermostats so it comes on with any zone calling.
The biggest problem I see is; the zones not getting flow when the indirect is calling.
Since the pump mounted on the boiler runs when the indirect calls can't the 3-way be taken out and replaced by a zone valve so the valve would open when there is demand from the indirect and close supply when satisfied, but still allow supply to go to the baseboard zones
Thanks
 

Last edited by dvizzoca; 02-22-14 at 11:28 AM. Reason: grammer
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Old 02-22-14, 02:00 PM
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Since the pump mounted on the boiler runs when the indirect calls can't the 3-way be taken out and replaced by a zone valve so the valve would open when there is demand from the indirect and close supply when satisfied, but still allow supply to go to the baseboard zones
Thanks
Yes you can I believe, but the boiler circ and zone circs are in series. This is why you want the close space tees..

If you removed the zone circs and used the zone valves instead you will not need close space tees. The onboard boiler circ will be your main circ.

But I dont know how many ft each of your zones are. If they are long the boiler circ may not be powerful enough to run all the zones and the indirect..

This is why I am suggesting leaving the circs and add a circ to the indirect. Then pipe close spaced tees...
 
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Old 02-22-14, 03:03 PM
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Drew this up...

Troop?


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  #66  
Old 02-22-14, 05:07 PM
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I think I'm a 'Minimalist' and Mike is an 'Idealist'.

Pushing for the least amount of work and still have a system that functions reasonably well, perhaps not as well as possible, but well enough to meet your needs.

I say leave the 3-way. I would like to see it changed to a 1" valve, but it's been working "ok" for how long? Engineer some kind of a time delay relay to limit the indirect priority time...

Addressing the issue of the water hammer which is annoying... there's a number of ways to go about this.

1. Disconnect the wiring from the zone valves and lock them manual open. Change pumps to models with INTERNAL FLOW CHECK valves.

007-F5-7IFC - Taco 007-F5-7IFC - 007 Cast Iron Circulator with Integral Flow Check, 1/25 HP

2. Still locking the zone valves open and disconnecting, keeping the same pumps, add FLOW CHECK FLANGES to the discharge sides of the pumps.

101231LF - Bell & Gossett 101231LF - CTF-3/4, 3/4" NPT Check-Trol Isolation Flow Control Flange, Lead Free

3. Cut out zone valves and replace with check valves.

219-4 - Taco 219-4 - 3/4" CxC Horizontal (Bronze) Taco Flo-Chek

Lastly, the system should be changed to primary/secondary.
 
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Old 02-23-14, 03:02 PM
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Weil McClain

I like option 3 which would entail less system plumbing for my limited capabilities and would solve the water hammer issue. I could possibly set up the 3 way valve control to go through a timer so it would allow the indirect to gain hot water at times when we need it; mornings, evenings etc.
I have a concern about the baseboard pumps running while the indirect is getting supply from the boiler and the pumps are not. That doesn't sound like good engineering.
Should they be off circuit while the indirect has the 3 way valve open?
 

Last edited by dvizzoca; 02-23-14 at 04:07 PM.
  #68  
Old 02-23-14, 04:17 PM
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I could possibly set up the 3 way valve control to go through a timer so it would allow the indirect to gain hot water at times when we need it; mornings, evenings etc.
What might be better, though more complicated, would be a 'count down timer' that would stop an indirect call after a certain amount of time, such as a half hour or so, and then stay off for a half hour afterward.

About the pumps running for central heat when there is an indirect call... this may be fairly easy to implement using a simple relay like an SR501, but for me to tell you how to wire that would require a full understanding of how those relays are now wired... and that may be difficult to convey in text.

Is there a 24 VAC transformer somewhere that is powering the Furnas relays and the zone valves?

You might get a slightly faster recovery time on the indirect if you did end up going to a 1" valve... might not be that noticeable though, but that 3/4" valve IS 'choking' BOTH the indirect AND the central heating.

I also highly recommend that you go with the primary/secondary setup, as your zone pumps appear i series with the boiler pump when running, and it's also possible that when multiple zones call for heat at the same time that the flow through the boiler is WAY above spec. You could do it like this, similar to Mike's earlier suggestion, but observing the distance on either side of the CSTs to nearby elbows and valves... it's important for the Tees to function properly:

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Old 02-23-14, 04:24 PM
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So, to summarize and re-cap:

1. Remove zone valves and replace with flow-checks.

2. Modify near boiler piping for primary secondary.

3. Some type of timer to limit priority indirect calls.

4. Engineer method to prevent central heat pumps running during indirect call (although, if you went to the primary/secondary, this would really not be necessary because the pumps would no longer be 'dead-headed' during an indirect call)

5. Replace the 3/4" 3-way with a 1" model. ALTERNATELY, do away with the 3-way and make the indirect a PUMPED ZONE just as the others are. No more 'choking' on that small valve.
 

Last edited by NJT; 02-23-14 at 04:59 PM.
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Old 02-23-14, 04:53 PM
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This is what Mike has been driving for, and a good idea also... ultimately it's up to you what you decide on, offering all the choices!

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Then, if you do this, you can use a Taco SR panel with priority to wire everything up.
 
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Old 02-23-14, 05:04 PM
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By the way, I'm sure you already have found this out, but there is EXPOSED 120 VAC LINE VOLTAGE on these terminals. Thank goodness it's up out of reach!



This could not possibly have been inspected by code officer. That would have been red-tagged in a heart beat!

This is a candidate for an electrician's "Hall of Shame".
 
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Old 02-24-14, 05:05 AM
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Mike, The photo showing the removal of the 3 way and addition of a circ. pump and flow control looks
like it would supply hot water when the indirect demands, but won't the indirect also be getting hot water from the boiler when any baseboard zone is demanding as their pumps will cause flow through the indirect?
 
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Old 02-24-14, 05:09 AM
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Troop, I'm going to have a friend who is more qualified rewire the relays with a control relay based on your recommendations. Those relays are below our Family room and are annoying whenever they snap close or open.
 
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Old 02-24-14, 05:30 AM
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but won't the indirect also be getting hot water from the boiler when any baseboard zone is demanding as their pumps will cause flow through the indirect?

No because you are installing a flo check valve...That prevents other circulators from flowing into other zones...

IMO This is the best course of action. Couple this set up with the taco controls, and you will be all set.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]27323[/ATTACH]


You will have 5 circs in total? The onboard circ will need to be wired back to original if it was rewired previously...

SR506-EXP-4 - Taco SR506-EXP-4 - 6 Zone Switching Relay w/ Priority
 
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Old 02-24-14, 06:42 AM
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No because you are installing a flo check valve...That prevents other circulators from flowing into other zones...
Right... it's just another zone.
 
  #76  
Old 02-24-14, 07:29 AM
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WM Boiler

Mike, I am trying to take the simplest approach based on your and Troops suggestions. Would the photo depicting the pump and flow control mounted on the existing indirect 3/4" line and removal of the 3 way valve work as opposed to piping risers and tie in's? In addition I would replace the zone valves and upgrade to pump controls with Taco SR-506.
Thanks
 
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Old 02-24-14, 09:26 AM
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No, that by itself isn't going to work, and I think this is what made me realize why there are zone valves installed rather than flow checks...

You can't replace the zone valves with flow checks and NOT convert the piping to the primary secondary...

Here is what I think happened with this install when it was done.

The installer did not pipe with the primary secondary because he didn't realize the purpose of it, nor the fact that this boiler has an internal pump.

I'll bet that the zone valves were not part of the original install... that they were added AFTER the fact... because without them, whenever there was a heat call, ALL THE ZONES would get flow because of the internal pump. I'll just bet they were a 'band-aid'...

Here's the thing... If you ONLY replace the zone valves with flow checks, you will be back in that same boat. When ANY zone calls for heat, the boiler pump will force water through ALL the zones and push (or pull) the check valves open because the flow will be in that direction.

I'm not sure you're understanding the purpose of the primary/secondary setup?

The idea is that you have TWO separate 'loops', joined at one point. The pumps on one loop do not influence the pumps or flow in the other loop in any way. It creates HYDRAULIC SEPARATION.

The boiler is 'injecting' hot water into the central heating loop.

When multiple zones call for heat at the same time, they won't overwhelm the poor little boiler with their combined flows as they are doing now.

The bottom line here is this:

If you change the zone valves for flow checks and do NOT do the primary/secondary you WILL have flow in ALL the zones when ANY zone calls for heat.

The lack of primary / secondary piping on this boiler is a fundamental error that existed since day one and rather than the installers trying to learn and understand, they 'patched' the boo-boo with zone valves.
 
  #78  
Old 02-24-14, 02:03 PM
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Weil McClain

I understand the primary/secondary loops and can see how the internal circulator is causing this issue to be a little more complicated.
I'm thinking about another option, and that would be a separate hot water heater. The Combo 30 has been inadequate at times in the winter and has been mitigated by the 3 way valve closing off the flow to the baseboard loops because I've raised the water temp. setting on the indirect. If I go to a 40 gal. tank and isolate the boiler, the baseboard and domestic hot water issues would be addressed. In addition I would replace the Furnas with a Taco relay board. One last problem would be the water hammer. How could I address that, possibly d energizing the internal circulator or removing the zone valves and replacing them with flow control's?
 
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Old 02-24-14, 03:15 PM
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The Combo 30 has been inadequate at times in the winter
Meaning what? That you run out of hot water?

One last problem would be the water hammer. How could I address that, possibly d energizing the internal circulator or removing the zone valves and replacing them with flow control's?
I don't recommend that.

I've given you all the options that I personally would consider.
 
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Old 02-24-14, 03:51 PM
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Weil McClain

That's right, the showers are shortened this winter. Just a thought as to replacing the indirect.

This illustration shows the boiler supply and return lines piped to the return riser. Can you explain how that configuration works?
Thanks
 
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Last edited by dvizzoca; 02-24-14 at 04:47 PM.
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