HW Boiler Purge & Fill Valve Recommendation?

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Old 03-01-14, 06:23 AM
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Question HW Boiler Purge & Fill Valve Recommendation?

I picked up a 1-1/4" Webstone 48615 Purge & Fill valve w/host drains to install during boiler replacement. Is there an installation preference on which side of the boiler it should be installed? I was going to put it on the return side, just before the boiler.
 
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Old 03-01-14, 08:45 AM
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Location of purge valves depends on where the rest of the components are being located.

Do you have a piping diagram of the proposed installation? If not, draw one up and post it here and we'll come up with suggestions. It's best to have the design on paper.
 
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Old 03-02-14, 09:53 AM
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Thumbs up Proposed Installation

Here you go Trooper... please let me know what you think or if you have any questions. Best regards....

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m...psc7f67157.jpg
 
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Old 03-02-14, 01:31 PM
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Is the thing sticking up on the supply side a 'purge valve' ?

With your P/F valve on the return as shown, you really don't need the ball valve below it.

After thinking about it, it would seem that the most useful place for it would be on the return side.

Where your tank is connected to the air sep, be sure to put valves there to isolate and service the expansion tank.

You want ball service valves on BOTH SIDES of your pressure reducing and backflow preventer.

Consider one of these:

This one is pricier but eliminates one ball valve because it lets you isolate the water inlet:

0386466 - Watts 0386466 - RBFF, 1/2" Residential Boiler Fill Fitting

This one doesn't have the gauge, and you'll still need the ball valve at the inlet:

41672 - Webstone 41672 - 1/2" Pro-Pal Full Port Brass Ball Valve w/ Hi-Flow Hose Drain (600 WOG)
 
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Old 03-02-14, 02:21 PM
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Hi... actually the thing right at the top of supply sticking up is supposed to be a gauge - tridicator and not shown is the blowoff valve. That is actually part of the near-piping that Buderus provides.

I agree and was thinking I probably wouldn't need the extra valve on the return side if the purge and fill is going there, it would certainly isolate it.

I actually did buy the Webstone 41672 for expansion tank maint. Thanks for the tip about the valves. That Watts unit with the psi gauge is pretty cool though.

For the 1-1/4" piping, is there anything wrong with using black steel? Other than rust? lol Just wondering if folks use black steel or galvanized. It looks like the couple of fittings Buderus gave me are black steel.
 
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Old 03-02-14, 02:41 PM
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the thing right at the top of supply sticking up is supposed to be a gauge - tridicator and not shown is the blowoff valve.
Gotcha...

You may want to add a 'purge valve' on the supply out of the boiler to aid in actually filling the boiler and venting air at that point.

When you fill the system initially, you will close the ball valve on the supply, and purge each of the zones and the water heater through the purge/fill valve.

At that point though, how are you going to fill the boiler itself? There's really nowhere for the air to go. You could use the relief valve to let the air out, presuming it is on the TOP of the boiler (but it's not, is it?) but having a purge valve just ahead of the ball valve on the supply will make filling the boiler a lot easier. You could use a simple 1/4 turn ball valve drain on a tee pointing UP.

OR, if you don't yet have the ball valves shown, you could use one of these:

50615 - Webstone 50615 - 1-1/4" Sweat PRO-PAL Ball Valve w/ Drain

If you're using steel, you will want the threaded variety:

40615W - Webstone 40615W - 1-1/4" Pro-Pal Full Port Forged Brass Ball Valve w/ Hi-Flow Hose Drain & Reversible Handle (Lead Free)

Which by the way could have been used in place of the valve you've got.

Neat thing about these is that depending on which way you install the handle, the drain part can be on either side of the isolating ball valve. Note the " T " on the handle.

For the 1-1/4" piping, is there anything wrong with using black steel? Other than rust? lol Just wondering if folks use black steel or galvanized. It looks like the couple of fittings Buderus gave me are black steel.
Black is what you want to use. It won't rust on the inside because the water won't have any oxygen in it after a few firings.
 
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Old 03-02-14, 05:25 PM
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I was thinking about doing a bypass (with 1/2 ball valve) around the pressure regulator make-up to aid in filling the boiler. Although, the supply line ball valve with host connection might be easier and have other uses. I have only bought one of the two 1-1/4" threaded ball valves showing in the drawing so I could get the one with hose connection or for a couple bucks more another purge and fill.

Oh and the relief valve off the boiler is at the top height of the boiler but it is external off the boiler vertical manifold and not on the boiler itself.
 
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Old 03-04-14, 07:25 PM
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Thumbs up Going w/ Purge & Fill Valve on Supply Side

Change in plan... after checking the Buderus install manual it actually shows a diagram with purge valve installed on the supply side (before air vent) which actually makes sense because it is at the top height of the boiler, making initial fill and air bleed easier. For return side I will just install a ball valve with hose drain, at the low point.
 
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Old 03-04-14, 07:39 PM
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IMO keep it on the return. If on the feed then the flow controls need to be opened to bleed, no? Why do that?
 
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Old 03-04-14, 07:47 PM
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Flow Control?

Lawrosa - I want to make sure I understand you... what exactly are you referring to by flow control in this context? No matter which side purge & fill is on you will still need to circulate through the system right? Flow control check valves are in the circ pumps.
 
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Old 03-04-14, 08:23 PM
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You're going to need a purge valve at both return and supply.

You'll first purge the zones one at a time, then when those are purged you'll open the purge valve before the supply side ball valve and fill the boiler until no more air. It's easier to use a valve for this than the relief valve... holding that lever up gets old pretty quick.

That's what I was driving at in post 6.

Since there will be flow checks in the pumps, you won't be able to back flow through them, so you have to purge them in 'forward'.
 
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Old 03-04-14, 08:26 PM
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And if you put the purge station on the feed side how will the bleed water get around the zone and through the circs to the purge station?

Manual flow controls you can open. The internal ones to the pumps you cant.

Make sense?

But wait. The PRV is going at the exp tank? You are putting the purge station before that right?
 
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Old 03-04-14, 08:35 PM
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The Pressure Reducing Valve is going at the exp tank? You are putting the purge station before that right?
That was my suggestion, yes, I hope it's understood what I meant.

I guess I could scribble on the drawing if it's not clear what I'm saying...

There needs to be a purge station on the return side to purge the zones individually, and then the boiler can be filled in the same direction and allow air out the purge valve on the supply side, ahead of the ball valve on the supply.
 
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Old 03-04-14, 08:52 PM
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Valves & Valves

Each zone on return will have a 3/4" purge valve separate than the main return header, so I think we are good there to purge each loop.

So right now for the headers I have one webstone purge & fill valve and one ball valve with hose drain. I am thinking keep purve & flush on supply still and put the other on return. Unless I should get two purge & fill valves total.
 
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Old 03-04-14, 08:56 PM
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Unless I should get two purge & fill valves total.
You really don't need the purge and fills at all... I would have just gone with the valve I linked to, but you have it already might as well use it.

You don't need individual purge valves for each zone if you have one on the return, only ball valves on the returns for isolation purposes, which is what I thought you were showing in the drawing.
 
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Old 03-04-14, 09:10 PM
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Updated Diagram

I have valves all over lol, so I guess purging each zone without going through the Circ pump will not be an issue. Here is updated diagram... cheers guys, I do owe you.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]27766[/ATTACH]
 
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Old 03-04-14, 09:22 PM
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Some notes...

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Isolation flange kit with drain, straight iso flange on bottom, flange with drain on top:



50413KIT - Webstone 50413KIT - 3/4" Sweat Isolator Circulator Pump Install Kit
 
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Old 03-05-14, 04:09 PM
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Cool Revision 2

Updated diagram...

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Old 03-05-14, 04:14 PM
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Boiler mate? Maybe better with a super stor BTU wise....
 
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Old 03-05-14, 04:20 PM
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$$$

The indirect I have is existing... so good for now!
 
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Old 03-05-14, 04:59 PM
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Now something extra on top of pipe out of boiler? What's that? If it's a purge valve, you don't need it, you have the purge valve on that pipe already.

I'm guessing that you already have the 6 ball-drain valves and that's why they're still on the returns? With the drain below, you don't _need_ those, because you already have the drain on the common pipe below. Those can be straight ball valves if you haven't yet purchased the others.

Guessing the fact that you already have those means you won't be using the pump flanges with the drains built in?
 
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Old 03-05-14, 07:05 PM
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The new thingy on top of boiler output is the pressure relief valve. Pretty much have the valves already bought. For the Circ pumps I have the Webstone 50413-2 to go on the pump outlets, straight flange on bottom (no valve) and on the return side Webstone 40613 for each zone. I could have re-used some older valves but are older style, you know the ones that get stuck and then leak when they do move.
 
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Old 03-06-14, 05:27 PM
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2-Minute Mock Up

Little blurry but here is a 2-minute mockup of the supply. Whole unit will be move back and manifold mounted to the wall. Do you think it would be better to have the purge valve taps facing up or down?

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Old 03-06-14, 06:45 PM
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Do you think it would be better to have the purge valve taps facing up or down?
I would probably mount it with the ball valve handle on top and the drains on the side.
 
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