Aquasmart question
#1
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 3
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes
on
0 Posts
Aquasmart question
Hi, I'm looking to install a Beckett aquasmart on my gas boiler with automag zone valves, indirect water heater and 1 circulator. I'd like to keep it a cold start operation. To wire the IDWH as an additional zone would mess up the heat management calculation, but to use zc/zr option, zc isn't energized unless the boiler is at low limit. Besides installing the actual outdoor sensor to solve this, is there a problem using L1 instead of zc as a power source through a relay and returning on zr? Then I should be able to keep the IDWH isolated form heating zones in the controller (TT) and keep it a cold start. Thanks for the help.
Rick
Rick
#2
hello and welcome to the forums....
Not liking the becketts...
Have you considered the hydro stat? Based on thermal imaging and a much better design. Better then ODR IMO..
Fuel Smart HydroStat - Limit, LWCO w/Boiler Reset
Not liking the becketts...
Have you considered the hydro stat? Based on thermal imaging and a much better design. Better then ODR IMO..
Fuel Smart HydroStat - Limit, LWCO w/Boiler Reset
#3
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 3
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for the response. I'm looking to replace an 8148 that's acting up. I'm not sold on any particular brand or model, the beckett happened to come up in a search and I like the concept. Let me tell you first I'm no heating expert, just an electrician. Would I have the same problem with the hydro stat with cold start and IDWH?
#4
To wire the IDWH as an additional zone would mess up the heat management calculation
But the hydeostat has a built in feature.. Like a taco panel somewhat...
IMPORTANT: When installing with an indirect water heater, the Zone/Indirect Switch must be set in the I position. When set in the I position, calls to ZC-ZR will
bypass the Thermal Targeting feature and allow the boiler to fire to the high limit setting to heat the indirect tank. The indirect signal must be separate from all
heating zone signals. If you choose not to separate the indirect signal from the heating zones, the Economy Feature should be turned OFF to ensure that the
boiler supplies adequate temperature to heat the indirect tank (see page 7).
Manual here....
http://www.hydrolevel.com/new/images...-3250-Plus.pdf
#5
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 3
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for the help and the Hydrostat recommendation. One of the wiring diagrams in the manual link you provided showed the 120 volt signal to zr originating from the circulator output of the zone controller, which answered my original question about not being able to use zc in a cold start senario. The Hydrostat also appears to have a much less expensive outdoor sensor than the Beckett wireless one. I assume you've had little or no problems with the Hydrostat, so I'm going to go that route. Thanks again.
Rick
Rick
#7
Let's explain this 'thermal imaging' a bit, versus ODR.
BOTH adjust boiler water temperature based on perceived 'heat load' of the building.
ODR bases this temperature reset on ONE variable; the Outdoor Temperature. It doesn't care if it's a sunny day and the home has a lot of solar gain, or if you are hosting a holiday part with a home full of biological 'heaters', or if it's windy, or anything else that would affect the homes need for heat.
On the other hand, the 'thermal imaging' that HydroStat uses takes ALL these things into account when determining an appropriate boiler water temperature.
It does this by tracking duration and spacing of thermostat heat calls, which provide much more feedback of the actual conditions INSIDE the home and it's need for heat.
If the thermostat calls for heat often, and for a long time, it indicates a high heat load and the system raises the water temp. If it doesn't call very often, and when it does, only for a short time, the heat load is lower and water temperature is lowered accordingly.
INDOOR feedback versus OUTDOOR feedback... which makes more sense?
BOTH adjust boiler water temperature based on perceived 'heat load' of the building.
ODR bases this temperature reset on ONE variable; the Outdoor Temperature. It doesn't care if it's a sunny day and the home has a lot of solar gain, or if you are hosting a holiday part with a home full of biological 'heaters', or if it's windy, or anything else that would affect the homes need for heat.
On the other hand, the 'thermal imaging' that HydroStat uses takes ALL these things into account when determining an appropriate boiler water temperature.
It does this by tracking duration and spacing of thermostat heat calls, which provide much more feedback of the actual conditions INSIDE the home and it's need for heat.
If the thermostat calls for heat often, and for a long time, it indicates a high heat load and the system raises the water temp. If it doesn't call very often, and when it does, only for a short time, the heat load is lower and water temperature is lowered accordingly.
INDOOR feedback versus OUTDOOR feedback... which makes more sense?
#8
Member
Thermal Imaging?? vs Out Door Reset
Hydrostat’s uses past activity for setting water temp calling it “Thermal imaging”. It is does not fit the usual meaning of that phrase.
ODC is real time adjustment of water temp. This winter in the northeast we have had daily swings of 30F degrees. There was a big difference between BTU’s needed at midnight and noon on the same day.
At +20F outside temp on a sunny day, with a foot of snow on the roof of a well insulated house, the solar input is going to be negligible.
After all other factors are considered, building heat load is largely related to outside temperature.
The Hydrostat 3250 now offers a ODC add on kit. History is nice, but maybe real time ODC is better.
ODC is real time adjustment of water temp. This winter in the northeast we have had daily swings of 30F degrees. There was a big difference between BTU’s needed at midnight and noon on the same day.
At +20F outside temp on a sunny day, with a foot of snow on the roof of a well insulated house, the solar input is going to be negligible.
After all other factors are considered, building heat load is largely related to outside temperature.
The Hydrostat 3250 now offers a ODC add on kit. History is nice, but maybe real time ODC is better.
#9
building heat load is largely related to outside temperature
Hydrostat’s uses past activity for setting water temp calling it “Thermal imaging”. It is does not fit the usual meaning of that phrase.
History is nice,
It would seem to me that reacting to what is actually happening INSIDE the home is better than reacting to what's happening OUTSIDE the home, since what happens inside is the net result of outside PLUS what happens inside.
with a foot of snow on the roof of a well insulated house, the solar input is going to be negligible.
#10
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Wet side of Washington state.
Posts: 16,321
Received 38 Upvotes
on
30 Posts
At +20F outside temp on a sunny day, with a foot of snow on the roof of a well insulated house, the solar input is going to be negligible.
#11
I think there are good arguments on both sides. The indoor is great as long as there are gradual changes in outdoor temps. When there are rapid changes to outdoor temps what happened recently indoors may not keep the comfort levels. Wouldn't it be great to use both at the same time so when conditions change rapidly the indoors would keep up?
Last edited by NJT; 04-09-14 at 02:18 PM.
#12
Member
Tekmar is doing it both ways
The text below is about Tekmar House Controls features:
Outdoor Temperature Reset with Indoor Temperature Feedback
Outdoor Temperature Reset saves energy by adjusting a boiler’s operating temperature according to the current outdoor temperature.
Indoor Temperature Feedback adjusts your boiler based on actual building indoor temperatures. This adjustment for heat loss & heat gains caused by people,
Source Tekmar site: Improve Comfort & Lower Your Heating Costs
Compared to 12 homes on the chart I use less than any of them <500 gallons, for a 2000 sqft home, with occasional manual adjustment of boiler water temp for outside temp. Maybe because some of the Tekmar concepts are actually not the most efficient way to do things.
Outdoor Temperature Reset with Indoor Temperature Feedback
Outdoor Temperature Reset saves energy by adjusting a boiler’s operating temperature according to the current outdoor temperature.
Indoor Temperature Feedback adjusts your boiler based on actual building indoor temperatures. This adjustment for heat loss & heat gains caused by people,
Source Tekmar site: Improve Comfort & Lower Your Heating Costs
Compared to 12 homes on the chart I use less than any of them <500 gallons, for a 2000 sqft home, with occasional manual adjustment of boiler water temp for outside temp. Maybe because some of the Tekmar concepts are actually not the most efficient way to do things.
Last edited by doughess; 04-10-14 at 09:51 AM. Reason: identify in text linke source
#14
It says this...
When the difference in yearly temperatures are factored in, savings were even higher.
Now why wouldn't they show the higher savings??? Why dont they show the difference in degree days per year? Are they hiding something? sq ft...etc
Its all hearsay IMO.
No doubt you may save $$ but every situation is different..
Example: Trooper , I believe ODR does not work in your situation and you are not using it? I believe the consensus was if you did hook up the ODR it would cost you more in fuel, due to the fact on the coldest day the boiler would be trying to reach 180f water. I believe you, like myself only need 150f water to heat the home.
And trying to adjust the curve on the ODR would be a mute point.
In my case I turned the aquastat down to 150f and just forget about it... Set the t stats to 70f and forget about them... ( I do lower 2f while sleeping though...he he.. habit I think)
Just my therory and opinion is all.. Maybe it will help someone out there...
When the difference in yearly temperatures are factored in, savings were even higher.
Now why wouldn't they show the higher savings??? Why dont they show the difference in degree days per year? Are they hiding something? sq ft...etc
Its all hearsay IMO.
No doubt you may save $$ but every situation is different..
Example: Trooper , I believe ODR does not work in your situation and you are not using it? I believe the consensus was if you did hook up the ODR it would cost you more in fuel, due to the fact on the coldest day the boiler would be trying to reach 180f water. I believe you, like myself only need 150f water to heat the home.
And trying to adjust the curve on the ODR would be a mute point.
In my case I turned the aquastat down to 150f and just forget about it... Set the t stats to 70f and forget about them... ( I do lower 2f while sleeping though...he he.. habit I think)
Just my therory and opinion is all.. Maybe it will help someone out there...
Last edited by NJT; 04-10-14 at 11:55 AM.
#15
Member
Efficiiency data, Tekmar 256 and blowups
Realize the chart was incomplete without house size. Was just trying to show a relative efficient set up. Long Island Oil Retailers data says average 1300 house uses 880 gal/yr for a 5 K dd/gal. I am close to 10 K.
Have just installed a Tekmar 256 based recommendation on this site and further research. Very easy to install, all low voltage, no BX. With just 3 buttons and LCD display can manipulate all kinds of parameters. Latest SMT assembly design, no adjustment pots or dip switches. Tekmar tech support very knowledgeable and not like those bureaucrats at other companies who are tightly programmed to protect corporate liability at all costs.
With long experience in controls I am paranoid about the place blowing up if the system fails. Pressure/temp safety valves are nice but limited. Will install a separate boiler max temp control to deactivate the burner if there is a problem.
Have just installed a Tekmar 256 based recommendation on this site and further research. Very easy to install, all low voltage, no BX. With just 3 buttons and LCD display can manipulate all kinds of parameters. Latest SMT assembly design, no adjustment pots or dip switches. Tekmar tech support very knowledgeable and not like those bureaucrats at other companies who are tightly programmed to protect corporate liability at all costs.
With long experience in controls I am paranoid about the place blowing up if the system fails. Pressure/temp safety valves are nice but limited. Will install a separate boiler max temp control to deactivate the burner if there is a problem.
#16
Long Island Oil Retailers data says average 1300 house uses 880 gal/yr for a 5 K dd/gal. I am close to 10 K.
You are close to 10K what? DD ? I don't think so.
says average 1300 house uses 880 gal/yr for a 5 K dd
That's a " K factor " of about 5.7 ! I could probably get there if I knocked out a window or three.
#17
Member
Oil company jargon
The oil companies around here use the term K which is the same as DD/Gal
as the basis on which they schedule deliveries. K sounds like a scientific term which may be why they use it to impress customers. Sounds similar to use of "thermal imaging" I do not consider use of an IR/Laser digital thermometer as thermal imaging but maybe some would call it that. It is closer to picture-by-the-numbers.
as the basis on which they schedule deliveries. K sounds like a scientific term which may be why they use it to impress customers. Sounds similar to use of "thermal imaging" I do not consider use of an IR/Laser digital thermometer as thermal imaging but maybe some would call it that. It is closer to picture-by-the-numbers.
#18
I understand what the "K factor" is.
I'm still not sure how you've used it though... it's ambiguous. Could mean THOUSAND. If you're talking about K factor you need to spell it out.
So you're saying that the average home on LI has a K factor of FIVE? That's absurd. Like I said, must be grass shacks.
Yours at 10 is not bad. I run around 11 K factor.
Anything less than 8 is pretty pizz poor if you ask me.
I'm still not sure how you've used it though... it's ambiguous. Could mean THOUSAND. If you're talking about K factor you need to spell it out.
So you're saying that the average home on LI has a K factor of FIVE? That's absurd. Like I said, must be grass shacks.
Yours at 10 is not bad. I run around 11 K factor.
Anything less than 8 is pretty pizz poor if you ask me.
#19
Member
Same thing K and DD/gallon
I am using K factor as used by the Long Island Oil dealers association. The local 4600 degree day average season divided by 880 gallons comes out to 5.22 K. That is their data from last year. A few years back the average home here was using 1200, My first year in this house was 1800 gallons. Same boiler but with retention heat burner. Agree that 8+ k is bottom line. Have been improving the system every year. the Tekmar ODR is the latest. From an electronics industry standpoint the Hydrostat is a 10+ year old product.
#21
Member
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 118
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes
on
0 Posts
I need to check more on the degree days as compared to last year. I did a quick search and for the Jan-March 2013 as compared to Jan- March 2014 from the site I checked, it appeared we had 3 times the number of degree days this year. How does that effect the overall scenario of fuel use?
I installed the Field OVD in January 2013 and I know it helped keep some heat in my boiler. November 2013 I eliminated my tankless coil and added a superstor indirect, Aquasmart and other piping for new zone (not completed yet).
Last year from Jan 2, 2013 to January 9, 2014 I used 910 gallons. So far this year I just got my third delivery of 200 gallons which should last for a while at this point. Each delivery this year has been extended 1 week longer than the year before. Knowing it's been colder and lasting longer on the oil is good but I have much to do still on air sealing and fixing insulation. My Father-in-law who lives with us does NOT help any. I seal up cracks, he opens his 5' high casement window 6-10 inches on days when it's in single digits for fresh air and to "air his room out". He's been better once my wife made him fork over $$ for oil delivery.
I'm about 2800sf with high shower demands. I'm going to go until next January with the Aquasmart even though the short cycling is killing me mentally to see what the year brings in useage. Next January I'll toss the Intellidyne on (and disable heatmanager on Aquasmart) since I have it already to see if it makes any difference. From there maybe Hydrostat or Tekmar. I like the reading from Hydrostat that you can hook indirect to trigger so it ignores Thermal target/heat manager high limit and runs to aquastat limit. I don't know if the Aquasmart does that, I'll need to re-read manual. The Intellicon lowers the low limit but goes to 180 once fired if demand is still there and maybe not fore again with residual heat. Aquasmart will fire 5-6 times for short cycles constantly raising high limit if demand is still there which obviously is with Indirect calling for showers.
I installed the Field OVD in January 2013 and I know it helped keep some heat in my boiler. November 2013 I eliminated my tankless coil and added a superstor indirect, Aquasmart and other piping for new zone (not completed yet).
Last year from Jan 2, 2013 to January 9, 2014 I used 910 gallons. So far this year I just got my third delivery of 200 gallons which should last for a while at this point. Each delivery this year has been extended 1 week longer than the year before. Knowing it's been colder and lasting longer on the oil is good but I have much to do still on air sealing and fixing insulation. My Father-in-law who lives with us does NOT help any. I seal up cracks, he opens his 5' high casement window 6-10 inches on days when it's in single digits for fresh air and to "air his room out". He's been better once my wife made him fork over $$ for oil delivery.
I'm about 2800sf with high shower demands. I'm going to go until next January with the Aquasmart even though the short cycling is killing me mentally to see what the year brings in useage. Next January I'll toss the Intellidyne on (and disable heatmanager on Aquasmart) since I have it already to see if it makes any difference. From there maybe Hydrostat or Tekmar. I like the reading from Hydrostat that you can hook indirect to trigger so it ignores Thermal target/heat manager high limit and runs to aquastat limit. I don't know if the Aquasmart does that, I'll need to re-read manual. The Intellicon lowers the low limit but goes to 180 once fired if demand is still there and maybe not fore again with residual heat. Aquasmart will fire 5-6 times for short cycles constantly raising high limit if demand is still there which obviously is with Indirect calling for showers.