Boiler questions re: switch to cold start, priorities across zones, temp setting

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Old 05-24-14, 03:42 PM
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Boiler questions re: switch to cold start, priorities across zones, temp setting

My last boiler related post here was here:
http://www.doityourself.com/forum/bo...-provided.html
where I continued to try to address gravity feed issues through flow check valves.

Last week I had a big plumbing job to address that and our hot water issues. They installed a 50G Vaughn "Top Performer" indirect water heater, a new 2 zone switching relay (Taco 502), re-piped the boiler output to 1 1/4" to accomodate 5 current zones and 1 future expansion, and replaced the 2 faulty flow check valves (many tapping and a couple flushes didn't stop the gravity feed problem).

I'll give all my details of the system with pics, but first the questions I have:
  1. Can I somehow tie the multiple single zone switching relays together so when the water heater calls, the other zones (not just its buddy in the 502, but all other zones...) are disabled? I've seen master/slave wiring diagrams from Taco, but those seem to be using zone switching relays with "-EXP" in their model #.
  2. I'm getting hugely conflicting advice regarding switching to cold start. The boiler's 18 years old and always been warm start. A number of plumbers say yes and a number say no way. I bought from the "yes" plumber that did the job a Honeywell L8148A 1017 aquastat for doing the cold start conversion (that I'll either install or sell). The no folks mention sulphur condensation, waiting for the boiler to get to temp to start heating the water heater (and cooling it down while it does so), problems with leaks from cold/hot transitions, flue issues, etc).
  3. I'd like advice to properly set the aquastat temp settings on the water heater and boiler. I want to turn down the aquastat on the boiler as low as I can. I have the WH set at ~135/15diff and the boiler set at 170/130/20 diff now. I doubt these are ideal...

Here's what I have:
  • Peerless WBV-03-110-WPCT (installed 1996)
  • 4 single zone switching relays: (~1000 ft2 floor1, ~1000ft2 floor2, ~375 ft2 basement room, ~375 ft2 floor1 addition)
  • 1 double zone switching relay: (50G indirect water heater on priority, future expansion to ~375 ft2 basement room)
  • 1 Honeywell 8124 aquastat and single zone switching relay
  • 1 50G Vaughn "Top Performer" indirect water heater

And pics:










Thank you!
 

Last edited by icycle; 05-24-14 at 04:50 PM. Reason: use proper terminology "switching relays" not zone controllers
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Old 05-30-14, 08:18 AM
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Anyone have thoughts on the 3 questions? Thanks
 
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Old 05-30-14, 08:50 AM
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Can I somehow tie the multiple single zone switching relays together so when the water heater calls, the other zones (not just its buddy in the 502, but all other zones...) are disabled?
Or, in other words, set up the system for DHW 'priority'.

There may be a way to do this, but to engineer a wiring scheme one would have to know EXACTLY how it is currently wired in order to come up with a way. Do you have an ACCURATE 'system' wiring diagram?

The EASIEST way that I can see would be to remove all the individual relays and install a single TACO (or equivalent) panel with the required number of 'channels' to run the whole deal. This may not be the least costly way... but it may turn out to be. It's what I would do myself.

I'm getting hugely conflicting advice regarding switching to cold start. The boiler's 18 years old and always been warm start. A number of plumbers say yes and a number say no way. I bought from the "yes" plumber that did the job a Honeywell L8148A 1017 aquastat for doing the cold start conversion (that I'll either install or sell).
The 8124 is VERY easy to convert to cold start and the conversion is fully reversible if needed. You didn't have to buy the new a'stat...

I'll try to remember to post a link to the conversion instruction this evening. You might be able to find the diagram if you search the forum in the meantime.

I would try the conversion first, and if there's no problems after a year or so, then install the other a'stat.

I'd like advice to properly set the aquastat temp settings on the water heater and boiler. I want to turn down the aquastat on the boiler as low as I can. I have the WH set at ~135/15diff and the boiler set at 170/130/20 diff now. I doubt these are ideal...
I can't see in the photos if they installed a 'Thermostatic Tempering Valve' on the hot domestic line out of the water heater... did they? They should have...

In any case, you don't want to really turn the HIGH setting down much below 160... but this depends on the heat loss of your home and the amount of heat emitters you have installed. You need to be able to heat the home on the coldest day. If you have enough heat emitter to counter the heat loss of the home with 160 water, then turn it down... reality is though that the water will only get as hot as it needs to in any case. In other words, the thermostat may satisfy before the boiler temperature hits high limit anyway... so there's really no point in turning it down 'as low as possible'.

The LOW limit on the other hand... since you've got the indirect now and not using the coil in the boiler, you can start by turning the LOW all the way down for the time being until you decide what you are going to do.
 
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Old 05-30-14, 10:23 AM
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Do you have an ACCURATE 'system' wiring diagram?
No, not yet. I could make one.

The EASIEST way that I can see would be to remove all the individual relays and install a single TACO (or equivalent) panel with the required number of 'channels' to run the whole deal. This may not be the least costly way... but it may turn out to be. It's what I would do myself.
I'd asked the electrician to quote me a 6 zone switching relay and he steered me to just adding the new 2 zone model instead. So, here we are all over again

The 8124 is VERY easy to convert to cold start and the conversion is fully reversible if needed. You didn't have to buy the new a'stat...

I'll try to remember to post a link to the conversion instruction this evening. You might be able to find the diagram if you search the forum in the meantime.
OK, thanks.

I would try the conversion first, and if there's no problems after a year or so, then install the other a'stat.
Is there a reason to not run with the conversion long term? I figure if I don't need the new a'stat I'll just sell it.

I can't see in the photos if they installed a 'Thermostatic Tempering Valve' on the hot domestic line out of the water heater... did they? They should have...
I actually asked them during the install if they were going to install a tempering valve and they said nope, no need, the tank a'stat will be all that's needed. So, there is no tempering valve.

The LOW limit on the other hand... since you've got the indirect now and not using the coil in the boiler, you can start by turning the LOW all the way down for the time being until you decide what you are going to do.
I had the LOW set lower until the following happened:
-boiler had cooled below the indirect hot water tank's demand threshold (which at the time was ~140-15 = 125)
-indirect started calling for heat, circulator pump started running
-since boiler was still hot enough to be above LOW, yet cooler than the hot water tank, the circulator was actually cooling the hot water tank and the boiler was not (yet) running.
-I noticed this and bumped up the boiler LOW setting and also bumped down the hot water tank HIGH setting a bit.

I was thinking there must be some best practices to avoid this kind of thing yet still keep things similar to cold start in that the boiler is allowed to cool much lower than it normally would if using the tankless feature.

Thanks!
 
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Old 05-30-14, 04:07 PM
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OK, to start with, here's how to convert the 8124 to what amounts to an 8148, and no, you don't have to change the a'stat if you don't want to. As long as the old one works, keep using with the mod.



I actually asked them during the install if they were going to install a tempering valve and they said nope, no need, the tank a'stat will be all that's needed. So, there is no tempering valve.
You should have insisted.

Let me ask one question then... did the installers pull permits, and was an inspection done? MOST codes REQUIRE one these days, and MA is pretty strict about stuff like that typically.

For the added cost of adding the valve at the time of install, it makes absolutely no sense at all to not have one.

There is another benefit to having one... you can run the tank HOTTER, say 140F and because it's hotter, you mix more COLD as you are drawing the hot down. The net result is that you get a bit more 'mileage' out of the hot water.

Running the tank at 140F pretty much makes sure you'll not have a problem with water borne creepy crawlies such as Legionella and Giardia and some other bugs. Google Legionella to learn more about it.

I had the LOW set lower until the following happened:
-boiler had cooled below the indirect hot water tank's demand threshold (which at the time was ~140-15 = 125)
-indirect started calling for heat, circulator pump started running
-since boiler was still hot enough to be above LOW, yet cooler than the hot water tank, the circulator was actually cooling the hot water tank and the boiler was not (yet) running.
-I noticed this and bumped up the boiler LOW setting and also bumped down the hot water tank HIGH setting a bit.
This description is telling me that the system is not wired correctly NOW.

Do NOT convert the a'stat to cold start yet, you'll have no hot water if you do.

When the indirect calls for heat, it should do TWO things... in addition to running it's own circ pump, it should ALSO FIRE THE BURNER!

What is the point of having an indirect WH if you still have to run warm start?

All the more now we need a diagram of how it's wired.

Let's start easy first though...

Trace the red and white wires on the left side of the WH control and tell us to which relay they land.

After that, more questions...
 
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Old 05-31-14, 08:00 AM
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First, thanks for helping out on this!

Let me ask one question then... did the installers pull permits, and was an inspection done? MOST codes REQUIRE one these days, and MA is pretty strict about stuff like that typically.
No, no permits nor inspections in this case, I was told it wasn't needed.

Running the tank at 140F pretty much makes sure you'll not have a problem with water borne creepy crawlies such as Legionella and Giardia and some other bugs. Google Legionella to learn more about it.
I recall your other posts on this. I was hopeful that the treated town water supply wouldn't be subject to this same risk, but haven't read into it.

When the indirect calls for heat, it should do TWO things... in addition to running it's own circ pump, it should ALSO FIRE THE BURNER!

What is the point of having an indirect WH if you still have to run warm start?
Well the electrician was at odds with the plumber in this case; the plumber recommended switching to cold start but the elec. consulted with his contacts and they recommended staying warm start due to the age of the boiler and risks of side effects (introducing or exacerbating leaks, sulfur/condensation, and other things I'm not sure I'd be able to tell are happening). Thus, it's still wired for warm start. That said, it'd be nice to be able to run "cool" start by turning the LOW setting all the way down and have it work as you said, or convert to cold start to see what happens.

All the more now we need a diagram of how it's wired.

Let's start easy first though...

Trace the red and white wires on the left side of the WH control and tell us to which relay they land.
They go to zone 2 of the Taco 502. In turn, that's wired to the circulator (only). Here's a pic:
 
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Old 05-31-14, 08:43 AM
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No, no permits nor inspections in this case, I was told it wasn't needed.
Probably wrong. Unless you are in one of those 4 dog, 2 horse towns up in the Berkshires, it's highly unlikely that no permit is needed for installing water heater and electrical work.

I was hopeful that the treated town water supply wouldn't be subject to this same risk
It IS probably a rather unlikely scenario, but even city water supplies are subject to things like this. Unless of course your town water supply comes from Erastus' well out back in the lower 40...

(introducing or exacerbating leaks, sulfur/condensation, and other things I'm not sure I'd be able to tell are happening)
These are valid concerns, but honestly, somewhat unlikely.

Here's the thing though... even if you stay warm start with everything wired as-is, your system is not going to perform well in terms of producing hot water, and you are probably going to burn through LOTS more fuel than you need to, ESPECIALLY in the summer.

Why?

During the summer when the boiler is not producing heat for the home, it's not going to be heated above the temperature of the LOW + DIFF. It's going to take FOREVER to recover a full tank of hot water. The boiler will struggle to heat the water in the tank to setpoint because there will be very little DIFFERENCE in temperature between the boiler water and the water in the tank.

Heat transfer depends on there being a difference in temperature. If you've got the boiler LOW setting at say 135 and the water tank at 130, how long is it going to take with a five degree difference to transfer any heat into the tank? FOREVER! I'm surprised you aren't already noticing this...

The way your system is wired is wrong. When the water heater calls for heat, the boiler needs to be allowed to fire up to HIGH LIMIT in order to have any reasonable recovery time.

I would not be at all surprised to learn that you burn through more fuel with the new tank.

Questions:

Is there a zone pump wired to the C1 and C2 terminals in the a'stat?

It appears that the water tank is the only thing connected to the 502 panel, correct?
 
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Old 05-31-14, 09:15 AM
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During the summer when the boiler is not producing heat for the home, it's not going to be heated above the temperature of the LOW + DIFF. It's going to take FOREVER to recover a full tank of hot water. The boiler will struggle to heat the water in the tank to setpoint because there will be very little DIFFERENCE in temperature between the boiler water and the water in the tank.
Ah, so that's how diff comes in when there's hi/lo/diff. I was thinking that when the temp hit low the burner ran until it hit high again. So does it kick on at high-diff and stop at low+diff?

In any case, how does a cold start system work in the time between the DHW tank calling for heat and the time the boiler is actually up to temp? Does the water tank pump still run (cooling the DHW) or does it delay? Sounds like a more expensive controller might be needed to effect a delay, but I'm not sure.

Is there a zone pump wired to the C1 and C2 terminals in the a'stat?
Yes, the second floor is controlled by the 8124. I have 3 single zone switching relays, 1 double zone, and the 8124 does one zone, for a total of 6.

ZC and ZR on the 8124 are also connected, but I wasn't able to trace those wires beyond the main junction box, which I can crack open later this wknd.

It appears that the water tank is the only thing connected to the 502 panel, correct
Correct, the 502 has zone 1 unconnected today, for future expansion to one more basement room, to be finished.
 
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Old 06-01-14, 08:23 AM
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Ah, so that's how diff comes in when there's hi/lo/diff.
No... I'll explain further later today.
 
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Old 06-02-14, 06:49 AM
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OK, I did some reading. Thanks to some links I found on this forum, I now have an understanding of how the 8124 works. Links used were:
http://www.firedragonent.com/triple.pdf
Nothing But A Switch?<br>Jim Todd (registration req'd)

In a nutshell:
  • HI is a safety limit, shuts off burner at HI and has a fixed 10 deg diff: off at HI, on at HI-10. This setting is used when properly wired circulators are calling.
  • LO is an operating limit, turns on at a fixed 10 deg diff below LO and the DIFF knob controls the shutoff temp (LO-10+DIFF). This maintains boiler internal temp primarily for tankless DHW needs.
  • if the 8124 local zone (C1/C2) is connected, thermostat (T/T) energizes it, turns on burner and circulator. If temp goes below LO, circulator is disabled. Also, I believe the HI limit is used if T/T is calling.
  • If ZR/ZC are connected, this functionality of powering burner, disabling circulator below LO, and switching to HI limit is extended beyond the 8124 to other relay(s)

Hopefully all that is correct. So what I need to do right away is:

1) When ANY zone calls:
1a) turn on burner
1b) use HI limit

2) then I can turn down LO and DIFF to minimums

and in the future, ideally figure out how to:

3) when the DHW/indirect zone calls, disable all other zone circulators
 
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Old 06-02-14, 07:28 AM
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Here's some info on the wiring...not a diagram yet but should get us started.

Really it comes down to the 8124 plus an Erie Boss SR100 (http://www2.tac.com/data/internal/da...65/F_27018.pdf). All other zone switching relays are independent (not tied in to the aquastat).

The 8124 has C1/C2 connected to the circ pump serving our second floor. ZC and ZR are connected to the SR100 serving our first floor. Connections within the SR100 are:

Bottom row:
N - neutral from supply and to circ
L1 - to ZC on 8124
3 - line hot/black, also jumped to 5
4NO - to ZR on 8124
4NC - N/C

Top row:
C - N/C
GT - thermostat
RT - thermostat
5 - to line hot
6NO - black to circ
6NC - N/C

Thanks
 
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Old 06-02-14, 07:50 AM
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You did your homework well!

•HI is a safety limit
Yes, technically it is a safety and not an operating limit, but in practice it is as much an operating limit as it is a safety. It's a 'gray area' definition.

If ZR/ZC are connected, this functionality of powering burner, disabling circulator below LO, and switching to HI limit is extended beyond the 8124 to other relay(s)
A bit more about ZR/ZC ... there are 'creative' ways to use these I won't go into yet, but below are the typical uses.

Think of:

ZR as "Zone Request" and an INPUT to the aquastat.

If the ZR terminal is powered from an external source such as a zone relay, it will cause the burner to be powered and fire without the circulator attached to C1/C2 running.

ZC as "Zone Control" and an OUTPUT from the aquastat.

The ZC is a 120VAC OUTPUT from the the a'stat that powers the 120>24VAC transformers in the zone relays. When the LOW LIMIT is calling, the ZC signal is dropped and because there is now no power to the zone relays, a heat call can not occur.

More later..............
 
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Old 06-02-14, 10:49 AM
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Thanks again NJ Trooper, that helps a lot to hear how the terminals behave.

One thing I forgot to add to my list of things to figure out is an echo of my previous concern for "cool" start (i.e. turning 8124 LO way down, or doing that conversion):

4) with LO turned down to, say, 115, then when the DHW calls for heat the burner will fire and the circulator will (I have no reason not to believe) begin running and cooling the DHW. During the period of time the burner comes up from its low temp (worst case 105) to something meaningful to the indirect tank (>130), is there anything that can stop the circulator from running...i.e. performing the disabling function that would normally be performed by "LO" which is effectively disabled because we turned LO down? Maybe this is where the other aquastat works better, I haven't looked into it yet.

Thanks!
 
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Old 06-02-14, 04:02 PM
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The circ will only come on if the t-stat calls, not on a call for hot water.
No t-stat, no circulator.
 
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Old 06-02-14, 06:11 PM
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Spott, Icycle's system is a hodge-podge of zone relays... and not wired properly.

The circ on C1/C2 is only for Zone 2. It's not clear at this point if ANY of the other zones will actually call the burner to fire up. They may not be connected to the T T or the ZR in the aquastat... they MAY be... but it's not clear.

It's certain that the indirect does NOT call for the burner to fire and so relies on the Low Limit setting to heat the water in the indirect.

Ice, are you working on a wiring diagram? That will be necessary to sort this out. I know it may seem like a daunting task, but for us to be able to help you correct the wiring, it's needed.
 
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Old 06-02-14, 06:13 PM
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spott, in my case the DHW is via an indirect hot water tank on a separate zone, with a circulator. Trying to figure out how to get the wiring such that things work properly. Also hoping not to have to buy a new 6 zone relay but work with the parts I have.

Thanks
 
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Old 06-02-14, 06:47 PM
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I've confirmed that the 2 original large zones of my house (floor 1 and floor 2) connected to the SR100 and 8124 respectively both correctly fire the burner (and their circulators) from the thermostat call. I've also confirmed that none of the add-on zones (2 separate zones for 2 rooms nor the DHW indirect) fire the burner but do run their circulator.

I'm doing a wiring diagram now. Since the add-on zones are miswired, it'll be simple...
 
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Old 06-02-14, 07:32 PM
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Here's rev 1 of the wiring diagram. Let me know if it's enough detail or where more is needed.


Hint, for a bigger version, (in Firefox) right click on the image and select "View Image". Or just click here: http://teambums.com/att/boiler/boiler_wiring_r1.jpg
 
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Old 06-03-14, 05:02 AM
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Folks, if I just get a taco SR506-4 relay (6zones with priority) I can make this problem go away, right? I'll evem rewire it all myself because I'm tired of paying electricians to do it wrong. Note I have 5 zones now and have plans to add one more (and that's it! boiler can't take any more)
 
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Old 06-03-14, 05:56 AM
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Well, I hope so. I bought one: Taco SR506 4 Switching Relay 6 Zone New | eBay
 
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Old 06-03-14, 06:55 AM
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Yes, that 506 panel should suit your purposes just fine.

Wire ALL the pumps and ALL the t'stats to the panel, and the 'isolated end switch' in the 506 panel to the T T on the 8124.

The DHW should go to the channel ( #6 I believe ) that allows you to set 'priority' for that.

There will be nothing on the C1/C2 in the 8124.

You can then either turn the LOW all the way down, or perform the mod for cold start.

There probably is a way to get that hodge-podge of stuff all playing nice together, but for the time and effort to get it right, the 506 is really the best way.

Regarding your earlier question:

4) with LO turned down to, say, 115, then when the DHW calls for heat the burner will fire and the circulator will (I have no reason not to believe) begin running and cooling the DHW. During the period of time the burner comes up from its low temp (worst case 105) to something meaningful to the indirect tank (>130), is there anything that can stop the circulator from running
For the amount of time that the boiler is cooler than the indirect, there won't be any significant issue... the boiler will heat fairly quickly from it's low temp, and any heat that the indirect dumps into the boiler isn't 'lost'...
 
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Old 06-03-14, 06:51 PM
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Trooper,
Thanks for all your help and patience on this. I've learned a lot and will learn even more when overhauling the electrical for the system! This is what the internet is all about.
 
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Old 06-04-14, 05:14 AM
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This is what the internet is all about.
I guess... as long as one is able to weed out the facts from all that lousy misinformation that's out there. Everyone is an expert on the internet, even me, and I didn't even have to stay at a Holiday Inn.

Abraham Lincoln once said: " Don't believe everything you read on the internet just because there's a famous name with a quote next to it "
 
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Old 06-15-14, 10:52 AM
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All done!

As soon as the new 6 zone panel arrived last Saturday I hooked it up with just the water heater and all the TTs. Today, I finished connecting the rest of the circulators. Everything is now connected and tested A-OK. I also converted the aquastat to cold start, although this is exacerbating the leak I have around the tankless gasket (I will start a new thread to discuss that, since I think the tapping plate may need replacing).

Thanks much to all the help received here. This is what things look like now:



 
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