Newbie ( Bladder Expansion Tank #30) Can i just unscrew & replace?


Old 06-21-14, 09:19 PM
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Newbie ( Bladder Expansion Tank #30) Can i just unscrew & replace?

Hello -
I was reading a similar thread fro '13, but it wasn't exactly like mine it had no air vent, so am hoping i can unscrew the bad bladder-tank and quickly put on the same type. the end.

Today I Have NO HOT Water in house.
Walked into Boiler-Room (small room in garage) and it was Not it's usual hot room.
The Boiler was Off on its own - and pressing the Reset Button did Nothing.

I was Told 5 months ago I'd need to some time in the near future change the: Bladder valve tank - the 3/4 water release valve - and Air Vent 1/2.. i think it says 1/2 (although the bottom number could be an 8 i guess)

Water was a rapid drip out of the right-angle piping on the outside end of the water pressure valve... so i shut off the water AND the Boiler to OFF even though it was off by it's self - just for safety.

The Bladder tank I have is:
No. 30 Expansion Tank for Hydronic/Boiler
Model # AMTROL A30

Release Valve 3/4 female relief boiler
Air Vent 1/2 (i think) says TACO would be better

So three items i was told i'd need in the future - and future has arrived!
The "Knocking Test" has the bladder tank sounding equal top and bottom, it is filled with water.

I know that needs to be replaced.
And the water has been coming out of that release pipe for a while - i thought it was the rain coming down the exaust thing.
- but apparently it's been doing that for a while - but the Zero Hot Water just began today.

your page about changing a bladder-tank left me unsure... and a bit confused.. since your drawing of the vent didn't match where mine is located nor did He have one already in place.. Thus I am unsure if i need to let out air or put it in the bladder - or if it is The Same Exact One, can I Change the old one OUT for The NEW One? And then Be All Done? I'm thinking no, but pics included and hope to hear backl from you soon as possible. please.

the old:
No. 30 Expansion Tank for Hydronic/Boiler
Model # AMTROL A30
and since boiler is off and no hot water - if i can just Screw New Exact Bladder-Vent same type exactly back on.
- would i still have to do that air tire-pressure guage work as well - or just with everything off a simple screw off and replace is all that's needed?

Thank you so very much.
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Old 06-21-14, 09:32 PM
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Yes change parts accordingly..

After that I would be concerned with flue pipe... Looks like lots of condensation...

How old is boiler?

You need type of bypass. You must have cast iron heat emitters?
Old 06-21-14, 11:48 PM
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the whole system is 9 years old.
the flue pipe had a 'cap' on the top of it that blew away one night - i found it - waited for the snow to melt before walking up their and replacing it but by then lost the cap thing - so when it rains there's not much to keep the water from coming in.
planned on buying a new cap but time got away from me.

I have a contract with the Oil People and so every year they come by and clean the Boiler and check it etc etc - that's how i have a paper stating I'd need to change those 3 items.

But of course the bladder-vent that's 33$ for me - they upcharge at 160$, 4 or 5 times the cost for the other two as well.. so i wanted to buy them all and have them put them on. Save 220 bucks or so I think.

I think they are coming in a few days for the yearly 'check' and fix - but i wanted to have the items ready to go -
as well as that Bladder-tank maybe on so i can shower in these 4 days.

So you think I can just keep the Boiler Off.
Water Off.
unscrew old bladder-tank and screw on The New Bladder-Tank.. and be done?
- - no fear of psi's or adding air or will i have air in the lines then and cause problems?
Making it better to wait it out for the 4 days instead of replacing it myself?
i don't want to risk messing the lines - but I'd like a shower and if it truly is just a removal of one and replace it and I'm done. No other steps. Then I will do that tomorrow!
Thanks Lawrosa!
Old 06-22-14, 01:21 PM
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The fact that your boiler is not running has NOTHING to do with your expansion tank, relief valve or automatic air valve (it is 1/8" by the way) .When you press the burner reset button does anything at all happen? The blue "Safeguard" box,it is a low water cut off safety device,does it have a red or green light on it? The water running down your flue pipe MUST be addressed, it is rusting your boiler from the outside in...
Old 06-23-14, 01:21 PM
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Arrow No Light At All - Pressed Reset Button To No Avail..

no i was unable to turn the boiler back on.
- there was no hot water in the house, so i went out to check it
There was NO Light, no blinking nor steady light.
I did press The Reset a few times but nothing happened at all.

Like I mentioned, it seems the water from the release valve/pipe has been coming out at a slow-steady for at several weeks give or take.

I so rust all over the hy-vent and with a rag wiped some of it off and caused a bunch of crumbs to sit all about the top of the boiler in the pictures.
- However clearly there is some rust on the tin flue, due to small amounts of water that periodically came down the outside roof after the cap flew away.
- And there is a great deal of rust on the hy vent and right where it's screwed into.

But that's all the rust that can be seen, and of course any amount inside of the boiler that Can't be seen.

- There was also a serious water incident I'm reminded of now that happened about 2 years ago to the day.
I was having trouble getting the old water-filter opened when of all people the cable guy who was already here volunteered to assist me. However in the process a 3-4 inch tall 'brass nipple' was stepped on and broke right off - causing loads of high pressured water to shoot up to the ceiling (knocking out the lights) and went on that way for maybe 5 minutes until we could see where to shut the water off.
I did vacuum out the water and the lights worked once they dried out - But it was a huge forceful amount of water shooting out from where the brass piece snapped off from the pipe. Giving more evidence of possible rust unseen.

There is a Yearly Maintenance Contract with the Oil/Propane company here.. and the Boiler has been looked at after that incident with no comment. None besides the need at some point sooner rather than later for:
1.) A new bladder exp tank (he stated it was on it's way out)
2.) a new water release valve and 3.) hy vent (taco)

I have all of these items ready to be put in - but with the Anti-Midas Touch I was seemingly born with.. will await The Oil Company to do while they're here for the yearly cleaning/examination/etc.

- but your comment has worried me more than just a little.
So.. Are you saying it is your expert opinion that neither of those 3 items
- nor the water which had been streaming out of the release valve/pipe this past few weeks or so could cause the boiler to shut off, and the hot water to well, not Be?
And That most likely the boiler is damaged from the inside out from the water causing rust from the inside out?

That clearly would be highly upsetting news.
The yearly-maintenance is set up for this week - just by chance.If there's anything to look for or mention besides "is she all rusted out?" I'd appreciate that too.
And Thanks for your quick Replies! - Have been very helpful and much appreciated.
Glad to have stumbled in here!
... Although I am much more worried about my present situation if neither Known Problems could Not BE THE Problem.
*Leaves me Seeing a Big-money project from my low-budget window.
Old 06-23-14, 01:32 PM
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Sure it can be all related... ( Why the boiler wont fire)

1. You could have no water in the system and the low water cut off has tripped. Thats the blue box.
2. The heat exchanger can be rusted and you have flue/draft issues. The roll out switch can have tripped. either the one for the flue or the one for flame roll out..

If the exchanger is rusted no sense throwing money at that boiler IMO.

And if so you have to address why??

Rain< Condenstation?

You never said what type heat emmitters you have. If cast you have no boiler bypass that I can see, and need some way to protect the boiler.

If the above is true its due to low return temps to the boiler..

And if you install a new boiler and its not addressed the same exact thing will happen to that one...
Old 06-23-14, 07:23 PM
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I did notice one thing from your pictures, the boiler switch is off...did you turn that off for any reason?
Old 06-23-14, 07:30 PM
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the boiler switch is off.
Inlet and outlet valves are off too... Lots of issues there.

Let us know what the pros say when they come out...
Old 08-07-14, 03:20 PM
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I just wanted to let those who were interested in the final analysis of what was wrong with my boiler.. including all the newbie 'assumptions' that started the whole mess..
including the hang-my-head-in-shame details:

When I first moved here from Southern California to New York, My second winter here the pipes froze. It was a Sunday evening of course. But a Plumber was found and did come by to fix the problem for a not-too-bad price. He arrived around 10:00 pm that same evening and unfroze the pipes underneath the house in about 45 minutes, and when I"d asked how he did it he said a torch proudly showing it to me before he left.
At about 4:00 AM, 6 hours later I saw flames licking up from underneath the floor, and the fire was spreading throughout that one smaller sized room that had in a washer a dryer and the boiler.

BTW The Plumber was called-to the home by the Fire Marshall after hearing about the frozen pipes and torch.. as I very much doubted what occurred 6 hours earlier was simply coincidental
my little dog alerted me to a problem at 1:00 am, as he most likely could smell the smoldering insulation and wood going on beneath the floor so he woke me up - and his 'odd' behavior Kept me awake as I did rounds of the house every 20 minutes or so until 4am when the flames finally broke through.
The fire marshall however deemed it an electrical fire from an old Boiler which at That Time was located inside the house in that little room. Ah.. small town living! Since we had insurance
(minus the deductible of course, which I STILL feel he should have paid) and not even mentioning the plumber's visit nor his torch - he wasn't forced to have "We Start House Fires!" as their new slogan.

I mentioned that w h o l e entire story to explain the following: There was a red-plated Boiler On/Off Switch in That Same room, which when the old boiler was tossed away and the New Boiler setup 8 yards away inside of the Garage, I figured it was from the Old boiler which Used to be in there and nothing that was still working or connected to anything beyond what used to be.
You can probably see where THIS is going!

So during the same week I saw puddles of water on the garage floor from the New bolier-room, the garage door had also Stopped automatically opening or closing. I figured it was just another example of how when One thing goes you can usually count on a few others to go at the same time. At least that's how it usually works with me.

So I had purchased the new Bladder-tank, release valve and air-vent thing, that the worker from our oil/propane contact came and put on. He cleaned it all up from the inside out (I replaced outside vent-cover so no more rain would come in) and the good news was that the rust looks way-worse in the pictures than in real life. The boiler's rust free on the inside and most of the rust-particles seen in the picture were the after-bits and smears from my attempt at cleaning.

The Boiler's on/off switch Near the boiler I had turned to Off b/c it seemed safer since it wasn't turning on and I didn't know why.
Then the Guy working on it couldn't get it to turn on at all... so he calls to me "is there an on/off switch in the house some place? I kept saying "Nope".. until by the 3rd time I did a long hard look and there was that 'old' switch from before. I turned it to On, and sure as snow the boiler started. Then I thought Hmm... maybe the garage door will open too - maybe. And Yup! They were somehow at some point con nected to that same on and off switch. The repair man laughed and laughed, since apparently those emergency off switches are just for that: Emergencies.
And shouldn't have anything else piggy-backing on the same switch.

So THAT was why I had No Hot Water: I had accidently 'hit' the very much still-in-use switch while hanging up a fallen jacket (switch is 4 inches from a long row of jacket-hooks) or swiped it with my hand or did 1000 other unseen acts that turned off my Own Hot Water.

But again, I wanted to give a Big Thanks to all of you who took the time to write comments and helpful suggestions. I took the rust issue to heart and went directly out and bought the best cover i could find for the vent, one that can't just 'blow off' the roof at the first rain. So again, thanks for all the help.
P.S. I feel the need to also add the following:
I did remove the Switch-Plate njust the other day in hopes of seeing EXACTLY HOW or Where that Garage Door wiring was - Since it Stopped working a few days later it's surprise return.
- Several times I've flipped that same boiler On/Off Switch repeatedly in an attempt to get the garage-door thing opening and closing again. And with the safety laser-sights remaining in proper position and without anything there to Block it somehow, I don't know what else To Do. I did remove the garage door opening/closing and light switch Box, looking for the obvious loose or disconnected wiring. Nothing.
Where else is there TO look?
nothing is there that could be blocking those safety laser-sights and they are in alignment.
I even slipped off the door opener/lights box from the wall looking for the same old loose or disconnected wiring - something obvious.. but again, nothing.

So now I have This NEW issue in that I can't get the garage door to open or close - But the light switch on the panel box works. always has even when the boiler switch was off.
and when I Could get the doors to open and close via the push button box and the by the remote (if one works gthey all work) But when the door WAS Moving up or Down it was doing so incredibly slow! So makes me think some motor is involved - But when i turned on that Boiler Switch to On, it worked immediately - just very slowly.
Then 2 days later not at all - then I'd jiggle that boiler-switch on off on off on etc etc and it'd work a few times once or twice and now, zip. Nothing but the left button turning on the 'light' - but it isn't the button-box on the wall since when That Works the Remote works too - But the remote doesn't work if that doesn't work so ???
opened or closed automatically, it did so very very slowly, as if it wasn't getting enough 'juice' or as if the motor was going bad and could only turn slowly. But I'm thinking it MUST have something to do with that Switch since:

- I'm thinking I should be posting This Problem #2 in another location here? - It was sort-of related in a way to the Boiler on/off situation so I rambled it in here.
But I'll copy/paste it to elsewhere if that's more appropriate and preferred.

This Website Was Definitely a Great Find!
Thanks to those who got it up and going to begin with - and to everyone who shares their expertise with the rest of us!
Old 08-08-14, 11:10 AM
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Hi jack –

I lived in a condominium complex at one time. We had a good crackerjack maintenance crew there but I guess even good guys can make mistakes. Someone used a torch to thaw pipes one time and burned one of the buildings down. That became the new tennis court. (Fortunately no one was hurt).

I’m no expert and I might misunderstand your setup, but it seems that maybe that it is was just a coincidence that your opener worked after flipping that “old boiler” switch. I see the new boiler switch in the picture and if I understand the “old boiler” switch is feeding the “new boiler” switch.

It’s possible that the old switch also feeds the GDO (garage door opener) but you should be able to test that by observing the lights on the GDO. The old boiler switch should be able to turn on/off the light up on the GDO head and the lights (if any) on the wall panel used to open/close the garage door, if in fact the power to the GDO comes from the old boiler switch. In other words, if you get lights at the GDO with the old boiler switch off then the old boiler switch has nothing to do with the problem.

I’m no expert, and like you say you would be better off going to the GDO forum, but I would bet the problem is more likely the motor going bad. I put in two ¾ HP chain drive GDO’s in my house from scratch, but it’s been a while. I believe that I had some flakiness once because the wiring up at the GDO head was backwards once (my bad) and at one time it was loose (my bad too) – at least I think that was the case. And I believe in some cases I had lights but the motor wouldn’t run (all a blur now, lol).

Maybe you could just check the connections up at the GDO head to make sure they are all tight. Also I think you could disconnect the GDO from the door and push the door up and down manually to make sure it travels smoothly.

I guess the other possibility is that someone put a junction box between the old boiler switch and the new boiler switch, one leg from the junction box going to the new boiler switch and the other leg going to the GDO – and there is a loose connection at the GDO leg. But that would be really strange if someone did that. In fact, that junction could also be done right in the old boiler switch box if someone wanted to – but why would they? Yet people do strange things - but not me!lol

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