Oil to Gas Burner questions?

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Old 08-28-14, 03:47 PM
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Oil Burner system to Gas Burner System questions?

Considering switching the whole system from a oil system natural gas system (pics below). The boiler heats the water radiator heaters and also the hot water to the sinks and showers. Not sure why the boiler has 2 stickers posted on it but I've included the specs on both.
Was hoping to get an idea if the quote I got seems reasonable since I know nothing about this.

From what I understand the person doing this would remove the old one. Install the new one (model P206- ge12 164,000 btu). I can't seem to find that model online but it seems like models around that size are $2700-3100. I believe he is going to cut up my large oil tank and remove that. I was quoted $8,700.00 with a 1000 dollar rebate from the gas company. Again i'm not sure how much time and effort this involves but is 5000-6000 dollars labor seem right?

Thanks for any help in advance
 
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Old 08-28-14, 03:51 PM
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I thought I posted this earlier but when I check my post it was gone. Not sure if I forgot to hit post or if I broke some forum rule. If I am I'm sorry and not sure what I did wrong.

If everything is okay here is some more info
Paper work to gas company
Paper work to buildings dept
run new gas line and meter bar
remove old boiler and oil tank
install 40 gal stainless steel indirect water heater
install boiler burnham 206-ge12
install - pressure reducing valve, back flow preventor, low water cut off, expansion tank, taco air seperator, add serperate zone for indirect water flow control valve, 3 zone relay with wh prority
1 year parts and labor waranty
 
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Old 08-28-14, 04:25 PM
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That's more than just a burner replacement; that's a whole system.

Did you get a quote for just switching the burner to gas ?

From my point of view, what you've got looks to be fairly recent and in good condition . . . . too good to just scrap.

What was the calculated payback period that would justify replacing everything ?
 
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Old 08-28-14, 05:00 PM
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Hi Vermont, thanks for the reply. I updated my question to indicate i'm thinking about changing the complete system.

I did not get a quote for changing just the burner, I am under the impression that if I switch to natural gas that I would have to do all that was listed.

I did not figure how long it would take in savings per year to justify replacing everything. The decision is partly that the new system would be more efficient, 2nd gas is cheaper, and lastly I never have to worry about deliveries.
Eventually it will be nice to hook up a new gas dryer and maybe run a line to a natural gas grill outside

I agree that the current burner look decent, do you recommend I try to sell it? I'm not sure they were going to scrap it, he might just remove it and use it for another job somewhere.
 
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Old 08-28-14, 05:04 PM
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I got a reply to my question in another forum where the person said that he felt that the burner listed was over 4x the size needed. He felt that 60,000 was even oversized and 30,000-40,000 was good for my location in NYC?
 
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Old 08-28-14, 06:18 PM
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Jason, the FIRST thing you need to do is determine the heat loss of the home... BEFORE some hack makes a big mistake that makes them money but leaves you with an oversized boiler.

Whoever told you that the boiler was WAY WAY WAY too big for your home was probably on the right track.

With a 164K BTUH boiler you can heat a SIX THOUSAND square foot home.

How many square feet is your home?

What type of home is it? Single family, brownstone, how many stories, etc...

Don't sign anything yet!
 
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Old 08-28-14, 07:25 PM
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Its a single family detached home. 2 floors around 1700 sq ft. Its a water heated radiator system. Bought the house last year, windows look all new only couple years old. One small room was an add on and doesn't seem insulated that well but I put a thick door with weather strip molding so its basically completely separated from the rest of the house. It also is on its on thermostat. Basement has a radiator but I'm not even sure if that hooked up.

Also could anyone tell me why there are 2 stickers on the burner with different btu outputs?
 
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Old 08-28-14, 09:22 PM
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Even with no insulation and leaky windows, you could probably heat that home with 70K BTUH.

Also could anyone tell me why there are 2 stickers on the burner with different btu outputs?
I can't. Some boilers are spec'd for different firing rates, but I'm not sure that's the case with your Peerless.
 
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Old 08-28-14, 10:21 PM
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some data from my conversion project

jason,

not sure if you seen my post---in similar boat , getting gas in a coupe weeks, converting all but dryer to gas. had a couple contractors give estimates and did some calculations- here is the summary-

1. btw, as nj troope said, 164K is too big for you (unless 1700 sf is an error)...we have a little bigger house but going with only 140K , same as current unit

2. our current boiler is WM UO5, LESS THAN 3 YEARS. i am in morris NJ

3. cost: total replacement with mod-con boiler (95%) : 9K (5k-6k parts, + installation +installation of new 60' gas pipe + permits)

4. cost of conversion: 4k (burner is about a 1000 & installation will be less)

5. savings in gas cost savings for a 95% boiler vs a 80-85% boiler are about 250/yr. based on 1100 ccf/yr usage, 1.91/ccf gas price (expected to remain flat. freaking fracking is producing lot of cheap gas in north america).

as i said i my thread, conversion will same me 5K but i wanted get some feedback (good or bad) before i made the commitment.
 
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Old 08-29-14, 06:32 AM
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$250 is the difference in savings between the two approaches; but what are the overall savings on this one, just to calculate the pay back period on the entire investment ?
 
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Old 08-29-14, 06:47 AM
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Another person got back to me with a price. this person is asking 10,800. the difference with this company would be using a weil mclain condensing boiler (97% efficiency). He said he would put a 155,000 btu burner. Again not sure why these guys are coming in with such a high number unless they are just matching the old burner. He would also run pipe to the dryer and to outside for the grill. Just a quick guess would be 20 feet of pipe to the dryer and then another 20 feet to outside grill placement. He said there would be a 1300 dollar rebate so this job in total would cost me 9,500. I really don't like thinking of including the rebate cost since that is coming from the gas company.


Dr. Gj i'll look around for your thread and read up on it.

NJ trooper- would would you recommend since the house has decent windows and is decently insulated. I mean there are some drafty spots but for the most part is insulated fairly well. Is 35-40,000 good, or is 60,000 a safer bet. Someone on another forum recommend one of these 2 models but also said they think 60,000 is overkill. They have IQ sensors which would help.

http://s3.supplyhouse.com/product_fi...3-Brochure.pdf
http://s3.supplyhouse.com/product_fi...5-Brochure.pdf
 

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Old 08-29-14, 07:11 AM
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What is the best way to figure out what size boiler I should get that I can do myself. Is it sq feet, # of radiators, amount of pipe, gallons of water in the system, etc.
I get the right size is the most important. Once I get that number I can choose the model I need (brand, efficiency, venting, price). But the key is to get the right BTUS.
Is there a calcualtor? Should I go measure the sq ft of my house myself instead of relying on zillow? Should I measure just the inside or the outside? I assume I have to measure any area that is heated. In my case that includes the garage (there is a radiator there), also have to figure out if the basement is heated.

thanks
Jay
 
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Old 08-29-14, 08:21 AM
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He said he would put a 155,000 btu burner.

Your gonna get ripped off... Find someone else. Dont let that guy in your home again...LOL


Read here and do a heat loss calc then let us know.

http://www.doityourself.com/forum/bo...lculators.html


Just to give you a rough idea you may need to line the chimney. A basic boiler and superstor indirect water heater will run you about $2500 just for the equipment..

Im not fond of those ESC models...
 
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Old 08-29-14, 09:30 AM
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Thanks Mike for that link, I'll give it a look and try to calculate heat loss later today.

Were you being serious about finding someone else or was that a little joking since you wrote lol?

I agree that at the very minimum equipment is $2700 dollars. Around $900-1200 for a 40-50 gallon indirect heater. And for an 85% efficient boiler of around 50,000 btu is $1500-1800. Then there is other materials that may or might not be needed like
pressure reducing valve, back flow preventer, low water cut off, expansion tank, taco air separator, add separate zone for indirect water flow control valve, 3 zone relay with wh priority- not sure how much of the old stuff can be used

Should I try to sell the old boiler for a couple hundred bucks?

I have so much room in the basement I'm not even sure I need to remove the old oil tank if that will save me a nice chunk

Sometimes I worry that I'm trying to low ball people but thats not my intentions, I just was a good job done for an fair price to both parties

I'm not sure how this forum works, if its only for DIYers, or if someone can recommend to me anyone who maybe posts on these forums that does work in the NYC/Staten Island area???

Thanks again to everyone who has taken their time to reply it is greatly appreciated.

Jay
 
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Old 08-29-14, 09:50 AM
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Were you being serious about finding someone else or was that a little joking since you wrote lol?
He said he would put a 155,000 btu burner.
Im serious... A 1700 sq ft home if drafty may need say 60k btu. on the low end say a 45K btu will be sufficent. But do your own heat loss to find out.

So say you calculate 50k btu as a heat loss. That 155K burner is 3 times bigger then you need that your guy suggests. That shows the guy your dealing with probably dont care too much about you and has no clue about heat loss.


if someone can recommend to me anyone who maybe posts on these forums that does work in the NYC/Staten Island area???
Cant recommend but only guide you to make better choices..

All my opinion but I would not convert that boiler to gas. Put it up for sale on a site to try to recoup some money. Or scrap it.. Its about 9 cents a pound for iron..

Once you get the heat loss I would suggest a standard type boiler like a burnham or slant fin..

Example only..

Series 2 burnham

P203-EI-NG - Burnham P203-EI-NG - P203 45,000 BTU Output, Electronic Ignition Cast Iron Boiler (Nat Gas)

Slant fin sentry

Sentry Slantfin Natural Gas Boiler with 60,000 BTU Input 44,000 Output BTU Intermittent Electronic Ignition-S-60EDP at The Home Depot

Then I would couple that with a superstor contender indirect..

Superstor Contender, SSC-35, Glass Lined Indirect Water Heater


This is just my suggestion and others may suggest another direction...


How many zones in the home? T stats?

How many radiators on each zone?

Can you take a pic of a few rads?
 
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Old 08-29-14, 12:01 PM
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Also could anyone tell me why there are 2 stickers on the burner with different btu outputs?
I believe one sticker is for the cast iron boiler (for heat), and the other sticker is for the tankless coil (hot water for shower, etc.)
 
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Old 08-29-14, 01:33 PM
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jason

first....
would put a 155,000
let me repeat what has been said as this would not only change your upfront cost but also the the ongoing fuel cost. 155k is way too big. again, i am assuming your 1700sf number is correct. there are several links on the web to estimate boiler btu, below are 2 more...

Boiler BTU Calculator - Boiler Sizing Calculator - Boiler Sizing - Boiler BTU Calculator - SupplyHouse.com

http://http://www.alpinehomeair.com/..._estimator.cfm

i think there is enough guidance here already about your different options in terms of the brands and efficiencies.
 
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Old 08-29-14, 01:45 PM
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$250 is the difference in savings between the two approaches; but what are the overall savings on this one, just to calculate the pay back period on the entire investment ?
for my situation in morris, nj, based on last year's oil bills and current gas prices, the oil to gas will save me about 1500+ yr...it is only a 3-yr-back if i go with just changing the burner. (oil bill 3.7k, pessimistic gas bill 2200 based on 1100ccf usage , 2/ccf gas price, current gas price is 1.90/ccf
 
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Old 08-29-14, 04:12 PM
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Dr.Gj I agree 155,000 btu is too much i'm just trying to figure if 40/50/60,000 is the right amount. Ill have read the links to determining correct size, have not gotten a chance to check them out

Mike there are 2 zones. 1 zone is the full house. The second zone is just an additional room that was added to the house. It probably 200 sq ft and has baseboard heating.

Below is a list of radiators and some pics - all radiators are around 23 inches high
1st floor
TV room - 3 radiators (48" / 48" / 32")
hallway - 1 - 48"
kitchen - 1 -67" (this one is different from the rest, its is a full cast iron one)
1/2 bathroom - small floor type radiator

2nd floor
7- 36" radiators (2 in each bedroom, one in bathroom)

The front of the radiators are just grills behind them are small fin contraptions. I took a pic of one

The boiler is right next the chimney so I'm assuming it vents into the chimney.

The old looking radiator is in the basement and i'm not sure its hooked up and there is also a radiator in the garage i forgot to take a pic of
 
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Old 08-29-14, 04:43 PM
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Jay, while they ARE 'radiators' of a sort, they are more correctly called 'convector cabinets'.

In general, when we think of 'radiator', we think of CAST IRON 'standing' radiators...

Are those baseboards CAST IRON as well? or are there copper tubes with fins. They look like cast iron to me.

Is that a Yamaha G-245S I spy? Nice guit, if so. Ever try the 'flat wound' nylons on it? They sound great on mine!

(Yeah, I know, off topic... sorry!)
 
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Old 08-29-14, 05:11 PM
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Honestly I didn't know those were just covers until i took pics today. The kitchen I was told was slightly extended and that I know has a full cast iron radiator. All the rest are these fins convector cabins. I'm not home but I'm almost sure the separate room/zone is just copper tube with fins. Previous own said it was added to the house about 10 years ago.

I'm not sure of the model of the guitar its a friends. I have a FS700s but sadly my knowledge on guitar playing is even less than on radiators/boilers.

Do these pics help in determining anything size wise?

Also is my venting power vented or atmosphere? I know its not direct. Will I have to reline my chimney I choose a 85% efficient 50,000 btu unit like on you posted below?
 
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