Troubleshooting boiler noise

Reply

  #41  
Old 03-21-15, 09:17 AM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
In fact I find air scoops not to work as well from my experience.
No argument, but a comment. Probably didn't work well because they were poorly placed. In the proper position in the system, they will work just fine.

The garage loop leaked before lived here and the previous owner did virtually nothing about it (not sure how long).
This was probably the cause of scaling and kettling in your boiler. Long term addition of water brings in the minerals... and slowly over time these minerals coat the inside of the boiler surfaces.

Mine was installed in 08 so it's either overdue or a matter of time before it needs done......My tank is a Honeywell TK300-30-1 by the way, any recommendations on a new one?
My last tank was an Extrol, and it was probably 20 some years old and still fine when replaced. This is why I say that keeping the air topped off in the tank will add life to them. I'm sure your tank still has some life left in it, keeping spares on hand is fine if you have storage space and won't miss a meal because of it.

IMHO, they're all basically the same... but stick with a name brand.

Are these genuinely adequate, or maybe phrased a different way, as good as an air scoop or spirovent?
I would say 'as good as', due to the fact that your entire boiler now more or less becomes the air scoop.

My system also has radiator vents as shown in the picture below, which I'm sure are all crusted up inside and non-functioning...likely installed in '57 when my house was built.
They don't look that old to me... but I suppose they could be. They look like the type that have the 'hygroscopic' disc inside, and they do 'weep'. Keep an eye on them and if you find a weeper, replace it with a straight manual type. Those can be opened manually as well...
 
Sponsored Links
  #42  
Old 03-21-15, 09:18 AM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
Same advice as before, move the tank first, and see how it goes.
 
  #43  
Old 03-21-15, 11:04 AM
Member
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 228
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I've been contemplating putting a water softener in my house, if a drain and refill is required, would it be worth installing the water softener beforehand?
You need to know what is in your water first. Do a search to see if your city has a water quality report.

Determine if water treatment is needed.

If not a water softener then running the system with a LWCO and the feed valve closed would be good.
 
  #44  
Old 03-21-15, 01:17 PM
Chacho's Avatar
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 72
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
You need to know what is in your water first. Do a search to see if your city has a water quality report.

Determine if water treatment is needed.

If not a water softener then running the system with a LWCO and the feed valve closed would be good.
The link below shows the latest water quality report from the city I live in.

http://www.eastmoline.com/documentcenter/view/4172

I do not see where it lists water hardness, but I did try the method with the colored paper strips. It came out to just under 7.0 gpg, so I was still riding the fence on installing a softener, but opted not to at this point. I will start looking for info on Low Water Cutoff's as well.
 
  #45  
Old 03-21-15, 02:14 PM
Member
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 17
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Boiler Noise

Chacho

I would place the Webstone drain valve between the 1/2" tee and the 1/2" female adapter. Be sure and support the 1/2" line and tank by the larger pipes above it.

Make sure that the tank pressure and the pressure reducing valve is set to 15psi.

Unless the tank gets water logged, there is no need to replace it, but if you want to replace it, buy an Amtrol Extrol #30. Supplyhouse.com

If you want to replace the air vent on the air scoop, I like the Taco Hi-Vent air vent. You just have to make sure the thread size is correct. Probably 1/4" NPT?
To test it press the schrader valve and see if water squirts out and when released the flow stops. If it continues to drip replace it. If you are going to drain the sys down then replace it, anyway, it is cheap and you won't have deal with the problems later.

Chacho, the small coin vent in your baseboard comes in two flavors, A manual vent that you open with a small screwdriver until a stream of water exits the vent, which you then screw closed and a Hydroscopic coin vent. The Hydroscopic coin vent has wafers in it that expand when in contact with water and the expansion of the wafers shuts off the flow. These are normally in the open position. They can be mechanically closed with a screwdriver. These vent let the air entrapped in the high points of the circuit out so the water can fill the pipe.

lawrosa

Just manufacturers preference, of course, they never want to warrant a tank with a free replacement. There are 4 kinds of tanks on the market: Hydronic, Potable, Solar, and Radiant. Hydronic is for a closed hydronic system, Potable is for your water heater (an open system), Solar is for the high temp in solar applications, and Radiant for a system that uses radiant infloor pex, barrier or non barrier, tubing with anti freeze.

I believe that the Hydronic (Extrol) doesn't have a coating to prevent rust on the inside of the tank from the trapped air. That is why orientation recommendation is specified by some companies, to keep trapped air out of the tank.

Potable, Solar, and Radiant tanks have a barriers inside to handle corrosion and chemical corrosion so that the tank doesn't rust out.

Eventually, trapped air is absorbed by the water and expelled by the air elimination device.
 
  #46  
Old 03-21-15, 02:56 PM
Member
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 17
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Boiler Noise

Chacho

If you had well water instead of Mississippi river water I would be more concerned.

I don't see in any of your photos an indication of scaling. Does you toilet bowl have calcified ring around it where the water level is? See any white streaking where the sprinklers splash against the house? Any white scaling around the handles of the faucets in your house?

Before I would buy or install a water softener, I would fill the system with distilled water that you can buy from Walmart for a buck a gallon. Which I use all the time.
 
  #47  
Old 03-21-15, 05:26 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
Even with only moderately hard water, if there is a leak for unknown long period of time that goes unrepaired, the fact that water is feeding constantly, even at a slow rate, will eventually concentrate the minerals to the point that they cause problems.

When the water is heated, the minerals precipitate. That's the reason that the 'thankless coils' that are in the boiler that some ppl use to make domestic hot water get limed up. Even with only slightly hard water, over time, this will happen.

A ring in a terlet bowl would only occur in cases of EXTREME water hardness. That's no indication of what can occur in a LEAKY boiler system that has constantly fed small amounts of water for an unknown amount of time.

7 gpg is not terribly hard, I would call that the high end of 'moderate' myself. My well water is about 8 gpg, after the softener, about 3.
 
  #48  
Old 03-21-15, 06:05 PM
lawrosa's Avatar
Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Galivants Ferry SC USA
Posts: 17,799
Received 10 Votes on 8 Posts
7 gpg is not terribly hard, I would call that the high end of 'moderate' myself. My well water is about 8 gpg, after the softener, about 3.
7 gpg is considered soft IMO. Im on a well as well as troop. Im at 7 gpg and my boiler is 40 + years old at least...

Softening causes the water to be more conductive... I would not do it...

Note my water was never softened till I moved in. My water heaters last less then 6 years... Ummm what am I doing to my boiler??? IDK but its still ticking...
 
  #49  
Old 03-21-15, 06:26 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
Maybe 7 is soft to you, but in the water treatment industry it's 'moderate'.

Anything under 3-4 is considered soft.

Don't know why you brought up conductivity? Electrolysis? No evidence of that here.

I've been softening the water here for 30+ years with no ill effects. My last water heater went about 20 years. The last boiler was installed in 84 and changed out in '12. Nothing wrong with it that was caused by softened water.
 
  #50  
Old 03-21-15, 11:56 PM
Member
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 228
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
"Minneapolis . . . softens water at a centralized softening plant."


The City of Moline: 2012 water report City of Moline, IL - Official Website
" . . .Moline tap water is
softened at our water treatment plant
and its hardness (level of dissolved
minerals) is significantly lower than
the non-softened tap water in other
communities. . . .
Both use surface water from the Mississippi.
Minneapolis yes. St. Paul NO. Moline yes. East Moline ? -no.-

See: Water Hardness [page 20 pdf]
"If You Canít Beat It... Control It It is important to have an understanding of the factors that contribute to the overall corrosion rate when working with closed loop radiant floor heating systems." BY LANDON LEINWEBER, [PP 19-21 pdf] ModernHydronics May/June 2010.
Many in the industry believed that the act of artificially
softening water with a cation exchange softener caused
the water to become more corrosive. In fact, the opposite
has been found to be true and artificially softened water is
less corrosive than naturally soft water.[SUP]3,5[/SUP] In response to
this change, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA)
and the American Water Works Association (AWWA) have
updated their literature to correct this misconception.[SUP]5[/SUP]

"An Ounce Or So Of Prevention Keep boilers more efficient and corrosion free." BY Harvey Grodjesk,[ pp 16,18-20 pdf] Modern Hydronics Feb. 2013.
 
  #51  
Old 03-22-15, 07:53 AM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
While all that is true, CORROSION is not the same thing as MINERAL DEPOSITION.

And I say again:

If there was a leak in the system and the reducing valve was feeding water for unknown length of time, the mineral concentration in the boiler water can easily be high enough to deposit these minerals on the water side of the boiler.
 
  #52  
Old 03-22-15, 10:04 AM
Member
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 17
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Boiler Noise

Chacho

NJT is right. Corrosion is not the same as mineral deposition and the deposition of minerals precipitate out in the hottest part of the sys, that is the HX. Also, mineralization in the water does conduct electricity, which is harmful.

lawrosa is correct, ions circulating in softened water does increase electrical conductivity. Electrical currents in the water are detrimental to the rubber parts in the sys also corrosion between dis-similar metals.

Where I work the calcium in the water is 200 ppm. The guys here use it all time without a great deal of trouble. I have over the years, been using DI water or distilled water in my fill-ups, especially in anti-freeze or chemical applications.

As I remember, 1mm of deposits on the inside can reduce the heat transfer by 12%. If you think that that is a problem, Chacho, clean the sys this summer with Hercules Sizzle or a Rhomar product and flush the sys really well.

You must fix all the leaks. You can't have fresh water carrying oxygen into the sys. Oxygen corrodes the sys, anything cast iron.

But what about your boiler noise?
 
  #53  
Old 03-22-15, 10:24 AM
Member
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 17
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Boiler Noise

For those interested in water quality in hydronic sys.

Caleffi - Webinar Archive

and play this webinar Fluid Quality in
Hydronic Systems
with Guest Speaker Jeff Persons
 
  #54  
Old 03-22-15, 11:44 AM
Member
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 17
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Boiler Noise

For those interested in converting water hardness from one definition to another
link to this converter.

Cactus2000: Converter for hardness of water
 
  #55  
Old 03-22-15, 01:03 PM
Member
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 17
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Boiler Noise

HeatWorm

Thanks for the info and link. I'm going to read it today.
 
  #56  
Old 03-23-15, 06:03 PM
Chacho's Avatar
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 72
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I just thought I would check back in with updates. I thought I would tackle the work on Sunday. I appreciate all the information on water quality and the impact of water on these systems. The website of webinars might be a curse because I'll probably be on that page for a long time! I almost don't want to say this, fearing something will come up now, but after the changes, the boiler has never run quieter than it is right now. I wanted to post some pictures because I feel sometimes posters take advice and do not show the end result of their work to help researchers. I made the changes to the location of the expansion tank, cleaned up the left side, and replaced the lower boiler drain, installed a service valve on the expansion tank, and strapped the 1/2" line to the larger lines above. I welcome all critiques and suggestions for improvement. On the other topics I had, I'll save repiping to receive the Radon Midigation pipe when the boiler is not needed. I also plan on looking in to LWCO's (suggestions on brand/model would be a good start), installation, and running the system with the fill valve shut, might result in a new post if I hit snags. Credit to everyone on this site who can give advice with a hack like me behind the tools and produce a better product than some of the tradesmen that worked on my system.







 
  #57  
Old 03-26-15, 01:04 PM
Member
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 17
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Boiler Noise

Chacho

Is that Webstone valve a #40612 ?

You have got to make sure that the valve is actually draining the tank when the handle is rotated. Is it possible that you are draining the boiler feed and not the tank? If that is the case you need to turn the valve over.
 
  #58  
Old 03-26-15, 01:23 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
If that is the case you need to turn the valve over.
Not so. The Webstone valves with the " T " on the handle only need to have the handle itself reversed.
 
  #59  
Old 03-26-15, 09:40 PM
Member
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 17
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Boiler Noise

NJT

Perhaps your correct. I use these valves all the time. I have never thought of that. I always looked into them and oriented it by where I want the flow to go before installing them.

I was looking at the arrow diagram on the handle. That diagram on Chacho['s valve is different than what the catalog shows. I think that the valve handle only operates in a counter-clockwise 1/4 turn. The side port should be facing the valve body and not the hose bibb ball valve, except when draining the tank.

Chacho can test it easy enough.
 
  #60  
Old 03-26-15, 10:21 PM
Member
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 17
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Boiler Noise

Chacho

We've never paid much attention to LWCOs unless the boiler was above radiation, but now it's code. It should be mounted above the boiler. I like the Mcdonnell & Miller RB-24E, Electronic, 24V Low Water Cut-Off You have a vent damper, but I'm not sure of the voltage. The LWCO wires into the low voltage safety circuit and a 24 volt supply voltage. The probe is self cleaning and must be in the flow stream.

I use a 1" copper tee and a 1" X 3/4" FPT flush bushing, but I make my own. That keeps the probe as far into the flow stream as possible. Use Teflon tape instead of pipe dope on the threads as they are plastic.

This is a true capacitance LWCO. I saw installations using a pressure relay. If the pressure fall below 5-8 psi the circuit opens, shutting down the boiler. But it isn't code and won't pass inspection.
 
  #61  
Old 03-27-15, 05:14 AM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
Homer, the valves with that " T " on the handle are actually designed so that the handle can be reversed. They even come with an extra 'label' that you stick over the one on the handle if you do reverse them... of course that label is useless because it falls off in a year or so...

One can even grind the stop off the handle if they wish to use the valve in either direction without having to change the handle, which is sometimes useful for initial fill and purge in some applications.
 
  #62  
Old 03-27-15, 06:57 AM
Chacho's Avatar
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 72
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Homer, the valves with that " T " on the handle are actually designed so that the handle can be reversed. They even come with an extra 'label' that you stick over the one on the handle if you do reverse them... of course that label is useless because it falls off in a year or so...
That is correct. I did reverse the handle and apply the little sticky label (that is already falling off). I'll likely hang a paper "luggage tag" off the valve to describe the valve operation. I was also very careful in observing the valve operation and handle positioning, but yes it is backward, and the sticker makes it look different than a catalog photo.

Thanks for the info on the LWCO's. Again, probably a warm weather project for me when I have more time. I may be looking for a lot more detail then, but this will get me started.
 
  #63  
Old 03-27-15, 02:29 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
Oh, and BTW Homer,

This is a true capacitance LWCO.
CONDUCTANCE, not capacitance.

Model RB-24E
Conductance Type
LowWater Cut-Off
For Residential 24 VAC Hot Water Boilers
 
Reply

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Display Modes
 
Ask a Question
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: