Troubleshooting boiler noise

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Old 09-18-14, 06:04 PM
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Troubleshooting boiler noise

Okay, I hope I'm not wasting anyone's time with this post. I have a Weil-Mclain CG-4 boiler in my house. I believe it was installed in 1992. The boiler, since I've lived in my house (2008-ish), has made some popping/kettling noise when it fires. The last couple years it has gotten markedly worse. In the last couple years I've had to introduce a lot of new water. One year my hydronic garage heater was replaced...lots of new water. The second year a radiator elbow started leaking...drain, fix, lots of new water. When I moved into the house, there was also a leaky solder joint leading out to the garage, so I have no idea how long that was leaking.

So that was a long build up to me thinking I could have sediment in the system. The noise is pretty much isolated to the boiler, the pipes are pretty much silent around the house. I'm also having a tough time finding a good tech in my area. A lot of companies come in and say the boiler is 20 years old, you need a new one. I just can't believe that is the answer. I also think that some companies are afraid of using solvents due to causing new leaks, etc.

I talked to a family run/owned company today about inspecting/cleaning my boiler and maybe looking in to the noise I'm experiencing. The tech on the phone suggested I take an angled mirror and look inside the boiler for build-up. So I'm trying to gather information. I'm not sure what that would tell me or what that would be a sign of. Not having an angled mirror, I reverted to using the iBoiler (iPhone taped to a wire hanger) and took this video. Does this look normal? Is the build-up normal or heavy? Does this tell me anything on the health of my boiler? Also, are there any suggestions for internal solvents to remove sediment?

I'm just trying to arm myself with information. It seems I'm always learning more and more about how these work...which often leads to more questions/mystery.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXMDlt27m_g
 
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  #2  
Old 09-18-14, 06:20 PM
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The build up inside he's referring to is in the water jacket, not outside.
I had a kettling issue a few years back after removing the antifreeze from my system. We're not really supposed to advertise products on here, but this has worked well for me and a few others on here. Look for Hydro-Solv 9100. I put a gallon in my system and ran it for about 5 weeks. Then a drain, flush and refill using a conditioner from the same company that makes the cleaner.

I have had a completely silent boiler ever since!
 
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Old 09-18-14, 07:06 PM
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, has made some popping/kettling noise when it fires.
Can you descibe when it does this better?


Anyway,

I use and have had good success with the Hercules stuff..

Try it... what do you have to lose...

Found at big orange home store...


http://www.oatey.com/doc/boilercleaner.pdf
 
  #4  
Old 09-18-14, 07:53 PM
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Typically the peak of the noise is toward the end of the heating cycle. The aquastat is set at 180 degrees, so as it is getting near that limit, the frequency and volume of the noise increases.

If running a solvent through the system, turns out to be a viable option, what are the steps in doing so? Would I need a small pump to pump it in to the system?
 
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Old 09-18-14, 08:29 PM
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I isolate the system. Drain the boiler some and pour into the boiler through the relief valve say... Or any opening you can find....
 
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Old 09-19-14, 11:25 AM
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Thanks for the responses. Is it safe to say with any of the solvents used for breaking down sediment that a full drain and refill would be required?

I've been contemplating putting a water softener in my house, if a drain and refill is required, would it be worth installing the water softener beforehand?
 
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Old 09-19-14, 12:32 PM
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What pressure are you running in the system? Jacking it up a bit may reduce the noise. Also, reducing the temp from 180 deg to, say, 170.

But, yes, if you're intending to install a water softener, I would wait on the solvent.
 
  #8  
Old 09-19-14, 12:50 PM
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The last time I checked pressure and temperature, these were the results. I was testing my factory boiler gauge vs. one hooked up to a drain valve.

After boiler (shut off) cool down:
Boiler gauge - 12.5 psi
Test gauge - 12.0 psi

After boiler startup (145 degrees):
Boiler gauge - 20 psi
Test gauge - 17 psi

After boiler startup (175 degrees):
Boiler gauge - 21 psi
Test gauge - 18 psi
 
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Old 09-19-14, 03:20 PM
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If you decide to go with the Rhomar 9100 treatment, you can buy the 'kit' here:

Rhomar Boiler Chemical Treatment and Test Kit - 83287

It includes the 922 inhibitor that stays in the system after flushing the 9100, test strips, instructions, etc... good deal for $50 bucks.

Gauges often read fine at lower pressures and go off as the pressure increases... after all, both gauges will (should) be accurate at zero, right?
 
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Old 09-19-14, 03:36 PM
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after all, both gauges will (should) be accurate at zero, right?
Especially if the needles are resting on their pin stops.
 
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Old 09-20-14, 05:43 AM
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I don't believe that kit has enough cleaner to effectively clean an older system with sediment issues. That kit may be suitable for new installs, to clean out any residual oils and residue from installation.

Give Rohmar and call and ask their opinion. Again, it took a full gallon and 5 weeks of operation to clean mine up. I had the exact same issue as you with the kettling at the end of the heating cycle.
 
  #12  
Old 09-20-14, 06:14 PM
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Thanks again for all the input. That was actually my next question, how long should the cleaner remain in the system? Some of the instructions online listed different time frames, and some only for new system installation.

I know this is not a perfect science but is there any way to estimate the total water in a system? My house is roughly 1100 sq ft on the main level with tube/fin type radiators on on the main floor and basement. Only 3 radiators in the basement, but the perimeter is basically piped either leading to a main floor or basement radiator.
 
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Old 09-20-14, 06:32 PM
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If you know the pipe size and how many total feet, and the amount that the boiler holds, you can come up with a pretty close (close enough for gummint work) estimate.

"Engineering Toolbox" is a great source for this kind of information (and LOTS more!)

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pi...ht-d_1734.html

The boiler specs should say how much is in there. I think it's less than 5 gallons.

So let's say you've got 200 feet of 3/4" pipe, that's about 5 gallons.

Probably less than 10 gallons total in the entire system.
 

Last edited by NJT; 09-20-14 at 06:50 PM.
  #14  
Old 09-20-14, 07:31 PM
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Thanks NJ Trooper, did a quick and dirty calc and looked up my boiler model number online. Looks like just over 2 gallons in the boiler and just over 6 gallons in the lines. A few assumptions in there, but definitely in the ballpark...8-9 gallons in the total system.

I think I will try to call Rhomar with suggestions. I like the idea of the all in one kit.

tomf63 - if you don't mind me asking, how much water are you running in your system, or how many square feet are you heating? Just to get some comparison.
 
  #15  
Old 09-21-14, 08:08 AM
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I'm heating 1600 Sq. Ft with 2 zones baseboard. I think I estimated between 10 and 15 gallons.
 
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Old 03-09-15, 06:11 PM
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Update and Next Steps

I just thought I would update the forum on progress on my boiler cleaning. I decided to try the Rhomar solution. I didn't get a start on this until around Christmas with work getting a little crazy. I started with the all-in-one cleaning kit and after the prescribed time suggested by the manufacturer, there wasn't much difference so I used a full gallon (or thereabouts after spilling some). I cannot say it completely silenced my boiler but it is much better than before. I want to pull out the solution in fear that has been in there for a pretty good length of time and that it was a pretty brutal heating season. I'm a rookie at most of things I try to do on this system, so if people were curious about the process I used to add the solution...
  1. I installed a drain hose and elevated it higher than the highest point in the system
  2. I shut off the municipal supply water to the system
  3. I drained the system to 0 pressure with the elevated drain hose in step 1 acting like a vapor lock
  4. I mixed the Romax solution with some water and used the pump shown below to pump the solution in to the system.
  5. The displaced water exited the elevated drain hose in to a bucket
  6. The water supply was turned back on and returned to normal pressure

So because I'm paranoid or know I'm going to find ways to mess things up, I rigged up this drill powered pump with a check valve to push the solution in to the system. The hose end goes in the bucket of solution and the check valve went on the boiler drain.


Here is where I need some help. I understand draining and refilling the system, but I also want to do some additional work while the system is empty and I'm looking for some insight from people that are smarter than me.

The first thing I want to prepare for is the installation of Radon protection system. My house blew pretty high when I bought it, and I thought I should do something about it. Here's my dilemma, the only place to install this in an unfinished portion of my basement has radiator piping in the way. Looking at the picture below, I either have to "leap frog" the PVC over one of the vertical pipes coming from RAD 2 or...leading to my question, pitch the horizontal pipe leading in to RAD 2 by 2in over a 4.5ft span by increasing the length of vertical pipe on right side of RAD 2 in essence pushing up the left side of the 4.5ft span. The area under RAD 1 is way too tight (its actually in a corner and in a very tight joist pocket) to think of raising the entire 4.5ft horizonal run of copper up 2in. Are there issues with this idea, either too much pressure on the joints not being perfectly 90 degrees or creating a potential air trap? Any thoughts? The bottom line is the PVC radon pipe has to be sent through the joist shown in the picture. Rad 1 is in a bad corner and RAD 3 is in a finished area, so I can't go underneath them.


Okay, sorry this is getting lengthy. The second thing I want to do is install a valve so that I can easily check the pressure in my expansion tank following the recommendation on the sticky. I seem to do this check every year and draining from the boiler is getting old. So installing the valve is no issue, but I'm looking for suggestion on the placement of the expansion tank. I believe my system is more or less backward from the newest way of thinking with mine having the pump and the expansion tank on the return side. I don't want to re-plumb the entire system, but would it be worth trying to mount it on its side or right-side-up or moving the expansion tank to the supply side? I've attached some general photos of the installation below.









 

Last edited by Chacho; 03-09-15 at 06:34 PM.
  #17  
Old 03-17-15, 02:21 PM
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Connect the expansion tank to the boiler side of the cold water feed line.

Moving air in the system:

Re-size critical piping. If the velocity is too low air will be trapped and block flow.

At 1.5 ft/sec. air will stay entrained in horizontal flow.
At 2.0 ft/sec. air will stay entrained in -- down flowing --
vertical flow.

Selecting Circulators TD10 [PDF] Taco-hvac

If you'r concerned about water quality: Maybe replace that iron feed line with something non-ferrous.
You are using soft water, yes?
 
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Old 03-17-15, 03:02 PM
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I myself don't see anything that warrants a suggestion that re-piping needs done.

There were no reports of air problems in the system.

Where do you see an 'iron feed line' ?

Chaco's current questions are in regard to possibly moving some piping to make room for radon remediation piping, but if the Rhomar didn't COMPLETELY take care of the kettling, there may need to be some further thinking along those lines.
 
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Old 03-17-15, 03:04 PM
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By the way Chaco, while that heat exchanger wouldn't hurt to be brushed and vacuumed, it doesn't look bad at all... sorry we didn't answer this from the first post.
 
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Old 03-17-15, 03:33 PM
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Are there issues with this idea, either too much pressure on the joints not being perfectly 90 degrees or creating a potential air trap? Any thoughts? The bottom line is the PVC radon pipe has to be sent through the joist shown in the picture. Rad 1 is in a bad corner and RAD 3 is in a finished area, so I can't go underneath them.
I don't like the idea of pushing up on a pipe like that myself.

You say it's in a tight area, can you not access the pipe coming down from the left side of rad 3 ?

If you can, it would be my suggestion to drop that whole horizontal section down below the joist level. Make the pipe from rad 3 down a bit longer, and the vertical pipe from rad 2 a little shorter.

Why can't you just move the PVC a bit to the left, between the two risers for rad 2?

I don't want to re-plumb the entire system, but would it be worth trying to mount it on its side or right-side-up or moving the expansion tank to the supply side? I've attached some general photos of the installation below.
You don't want to mount it on it's side. If it's moved anywhere, you want it HANGING with the air valve DOWN.

If it's moved, it wouldn't make sense to put it on the supply side either, because the pump would still be pumping TOWARD the tank connection.

Right now the tank is on the DISCHARGE side of the pump, and you want it on the SUCTION side preferably.

Doing this might in fact help with the kettling somewhat because when the pump runs the pressure in the boiler will be a few PSI HIGHER, whereas now with the pump at that location, the pressure in the boiler will remain largely unchanged when the pump runs.

In the ideal (modern) way of thinking, both the pump AND the expansion tank, along with a proper air elimination device, would be on the supply side.

I believe what I might consider is cutting into the return pipe above the pump with a tee, run a line from that tee back and hang the tank there. Plenty of room for service valves.
 
  #21  
Old 03-17-15, 04:27 PM
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The feed line is on the suction side of the pump.
 
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Old 03-17-15, 04:32 PM
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Not a bad idea... move the tank to the right side of the boiler.

If you do hang the tank there, you MUST run some support for the pipe, that tank even without any water is really too much weight for those long lengths of half inch pipe. Run a strap up to the ceiling.
 
  #23  
Old 03-17-15, 04:52 PM
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Boiler Noise

Chacho--NJT

Circulators can operate at 230 deg all day long. Whether the circulator is on the supply or the return is dependent on the boiler and the system. High head boilers( boilers with a lot of resistance in the heat exchanger) are normally pumped in to the resistance (supply side) through the circuit. It depends on which side has the greatest resistance to flow, the boiler or circuit. Some of the high efficiency boilers have head at the required flow of 17 feet of head through the heat exchanger.

Chacho's boiler is a high mass boiler with low head (1-2 feet of head). Pumping in the return is perfectly all right. On the low mass, high efficiency, high head, boilers, I would consider the supply side.

The circulator must be sized correctly. It must overcome all the resistance to flow created by the piping and components in the system, at a given flow rate.

Manufacturers will help you with that.
 
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Old 03-17-15, 05:01 PM
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Pumping in the return is perfectly all right.
Who ever said it wasn't?

High head boilers are actually better pumping into the return, and in fact, many of the manufacturers of said boilers insist it's done that way.

MODERN state of the art is to install the air sep, exp tank, and pump on the SUPPLY side.

It's really all about pumping AWAY from the PONPC (the expansion tank) and placing the air separator at the point in the system where the water is the hottest for greatest efficiency of air removal.

Google "Pumping Away" for more interesting reading.
 
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Old 03-17-15, 05:13 PM
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Boiler Noise

I just lost the whole post. So I will just make this a quick reply.

Chacho

First. You need to make sure that the air in the bladder tank is 15 psi. The water must not be in the tank when measuring or putting air into the tank. Remove the blue cap to do this. It's a tire valve.

The fill valve must be set to 15 psi. to match the air cushion in the tank When you are done the sys pressure filled with water should be 15 psi. When the boiler reaches 180 deg the pressure should be about 19 psi.

The bladder tank must be plumbed to the inlet of the pump about 8-10" from the input flange. Never, never pump into an expansion tank always pump away.

You need an air eliminator on the supply side of the boiler. Either an air scoop or a micro bubbler. It is mounted on the side with the hottest water, the supply side to the heating load.

If you have high spots on the piping you need to put an air vent on the side where the water flow out of the high spot.

The circulators can not pump through an air bubble in a high spot. The circulator will just dead head with a no flow condition in the heat exchanger which will lead to flashing (vapor bubbles being formed in the water and the
subsequent collapse when cooled). Noisy. Some call it kettling.

You must eliminate all air in the system.
 
  #26  
Old 03-17-15, 05:24 PM
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Boiler Noise

NJT

It depends. I always follow the manufacturer install instructions. System design with primary and secondary piping calls for a design strategy with the math to back it up. There are pump curves, system curves, turbulent flow considerations and design factors in the choice of components. Then there are whole house heat calcs and zoning calcs.

There are a lot of decisions to be made, cost being a very important one, too.
Hydronic is complicated.
 
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Old 03-17-15, 05:46 PM
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Homer, by any chance, did you actually read the whole thread? Just asking...

Hydronic is complicated.
I'm pretty sure I know that as well as anyone.

You're talking about the proverbial 'perfect world' here. VERY FEW systems are 'perfect' and they work just fine.

Chacho does not want to redesign his whole system.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that you are over thinking the reason for Chaco asking his questions.
 
  #28  
Old 03-17-15, 05:52 PM
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Boiler Noise

Where to put the bladder tank is crucial in a hot water hydronic system. It must be located on the input to the pump. That is the point of no pressure change (the pressure at the bladder tank is the same whether the circulator is running or not). The air separator need to be place on the hottest water, which is the supply side of the boiler. Whether attaching the bladder tank to the under side of the air eliminator, may be ok or may not be ok. depends on the system.

Chacho just needs to make sure the bladder tank is on the input to the pump and I couldn't see if that was the case in the pictures. He must have an air eliminator and the sys pressures must be the same on both side of the bladder. Chacho pressure reading didn't seem right to me.
 
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Old 03-17-15, 06:04 PM
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FYI gents...Getting off track here IMO from helping the OP...

Maybe start a new thread in general chats???

Homer, NJT hopefully will suggest a book for you to read about Hydronics... Then you can post a new thread with questions...


Thanks for your understanding.....
 
  #30  
Old 03-17-15, 06:07 PM
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Boiler Noise

The only design changes that I would make in Chacoh's boiler are those that I suggested. Those are important changes.

I got a library full of them. Thanks anyway.
 
  #31  
Old 03-17-15, 08:53 PM
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Boiler Noise

Chacho

I expanded the pictures to get a better look at your setup.

You evidently have a built-in air scoop like the Slant Fin Galaxy at the top of the boiler. Not as efficient as a micro bubbler but it works ok. scratch that off the list.

You definitely have to change the expansion tank to before the pump. You might want to take the burner tubes out and give them a cleaning with a wire brush and shake them out. Check the input and output gas pressure to the gas valve. The name palate or manual will tell you the pressures to be expected. Natural gas 7in W/C in and 3.5in w/c out, usually. The heat exchanger, on the outside looks good, no sooting. Look at the flames coming from the burner tube and check it against the manual.

It doesn't matter where the boiler feed connect to the boiler.

Describing noise is very hard to communicate to another what the sound is like.

I wish I was there.
 
  #32  
Old 03-18-15, 01:25 PM
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Wow, I thought this thread might have just died and checked in with a lot of reading to do. I hope I don't make things more complicated, but will try to address and/or add more detail after trying to catch up on the thread.

1. Heat Exchanger Cleaning - I'll do this as a summer project as just good maintenance. I brought it up originally because this was the first suggestion made by a local technician to reduce the kettling (again, not impressed with local "talent"). Burner tubes were checked and cleaned by this technician so I know those are clean.

2. Radon Pipe Preparation - NJT, I'll take your advice on keeping this stretch of pipe level or with all joints running at 90 degrees. The joist pocket between RAD 1 and RAD 2 is so small there is no way I could get two hands in there to heat and apply solder. I may be able to use a presoldered fitting and apply heat (knowing there are some bad opinions on these), either raising or lowering the 4.5' length between RAD 1 & 2. Rad 3 is in a semi-finished area and ideally I would like to have the PVC pipe for radon midigation on the unfinished side, but as you stated I could have the PVC routed over the right side riser on RAD 3. It would likely have to cross over the copper riser at some point above the the radiator. I'll try to chose the lesser of all evils.

3. Kettling/Expansion tank - Here is where I will eat my words a little. I stated that I do not want to re-plumb the entire system, which may be my favorite thing to do, but I also believe that if I go the well, I only want to go to the well 1 time. With the weather warming up, I would have some time to put in to this if it required an overhaul.

I guess in regard to air management, I have never had good luck getting the air completely out of the garage loop in my system, so I do have air issues. I only have the chinsey air separators like the one seen behind my supply coming out of the boiler (2 can be seen on the right side view of my boiler, 1 in the floor joist pocket and one behind the vertical supply line, then I have 1 on the garage heater). I have confirmed the expansion tank pressure and actually follow the Sticky's instructions every year as part of my start up process. With the tank being mounted upside down, I'm not sure if any leaks exist although the top of the tank sounds hollow compared to the bottom, but the tank is dated 2007.

Here my boiler's manual if this is helpful.
http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/multim...cgx2manual.pdf

I also have a Grundfos UP15-42FR (59896199) pump and Honeywell V4083F1051 zone valves if there are questions on these components.



 
  #33  
Old 03-19-15, 12:46 PM
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Boiler Noise

Chacho

The air scoop in the boiler casting is adequate. Just make sure that the tire valve cap on the air vent is loose or off. If the air vent drips water replace the air vent.

I assume that there isn't any makeup water constantly entering the boiler. That's very bad. Makeup water carries oxygen into the boiler which rusts all the cast iron part in the sys.

You must purge the air out of both zones. Flush until the water runs clear with no air bubbles in the discharge water.

Do this after the expansion tank is re-piped. It doesn't matter what position the tank orientation is placed. The only thing we are concerned about is dirt from the sys falling into the tank. The tank has an acceptance of 2.2 gal of water that is about 17-18 pounds when full of water. But it is rarely full of water. Support it if it is on its side.

The pump is more than adequate for a two zone sys. It is a high head pump and the HX is low head. It works.
 
  #34  
Old 03-19-15, 02:24 PM
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It doesn't matter what position the tank orientation is placed.
That may be your opinion.

My opinion is that it is best to follow manufacturers recommendations and install HANGING.

Case in point, manufacturers instructions:

Mount tank vertically only. Ensure the piping can support the entire weight of the tank when full of water.

Do not install the EXTROL on a dead-end pipe or wherever air can collect. This can cause corrosion and possible leakage.
NOT on it's side.

"Wherever air can collect" also means NOT on it's 'head' (upside down). Because AIR CAN COLLECT.

The only thing we are concerned about is dirt from the sys falling into the tank.
That's a new one on me.

Not one of the manufacturer's instructions mention 'dirt' in the system falling into the tank.

But it is rarely full of water
More opinion I'm afraid.

If you meant that LITERALLY, as in FULL of water, OK, I might agree with that, but the sad fact is that expansion tanks are almost NEVER properly maintained. By that I mean at LEAST bi-annually PROPERLY checking the air charge and topping off as necessary.

I bet if you surveyed 100 techs working in the field that less than 10 would have a clue about how to properly charge a bladder/diaphragm expansion tank. How many times have we heard from people here that the tech taps on the tank and his magic ears tell him "It's fine!" ? And when those people follow proper instructions they find out it was NOT fine?

In normal operation, ANY expansion tank is going to lose around 1-2 PSI per year. This air migrates through the bladder.

After a couple years that tank is going to be holding water... maybe not FULL, but holding water. The longer the tank goes without being serviced, the more water that will be in it.
 

Last edited by NJT; 03-19-15 at 06:48 PM.
  #35  
Old 03-19-15, 03:52 PM
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Chacho, my suggestion is this:

Before you go all hog wild and spend lots of time and money with all the repiping suggestions, do one simple thing first and evaluate the results. You may find after doing this that you don't need to do anything more.

Move the expansion tank to that horizontal section of 1/2" piping on the right side of the boiler between the pressure reducing valve and the elbow. Add at least a drain valve on that line as you already have upstream and downstream shutoff valve you can use in order to isolate the tank for service.

No harm in adding another shutoff valve if you wish, and the original shutoff that's on the upstream side might be 'iffy' anyway.

As mentioned, be sure to support the weight of the tank with a pipe support up to solid structure.

In a 'perfect world', the expansion tank would be closer to the pump, but trust me, the infinitesimal amount of pressure drop between the pump suction and the tank won't mean squat.

The added pressure in the boiler will help the kettling issue. You will also have improved movement of air through the system and may find that you don't need to do anything else at all.
 
  #36  
Old 03-20-15, 02:29 PM
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Boiler Noise

NJT

I don't want to argue. In the thirty years that I've been doing this crap, I have seen the expansion tank in every position without consequence, except on its side where the weight or some one leaning on it caused the tank to sag. It still worked tho. Yes, It is better to hang it. Chacho tank is inverted and works fine. Yes it leaks air sometimes, that is why it is important to look at the pressure on the tridicator. Mostly the air leaks out the schrader valve which I replace when I service the tank as Chacho should do if the tank is serviced and more than 5 yrs old.

Chacho does't need to redesign his whole sys just reposition this expan tank to before the pump.

Dirt getting into the expansion tank does happen. Connect the expan tank to the bottom of a hydrolic separator or any device where the flow slows down and dirt fall into the tank. Continuing education is important because the hydronics industry is constantly changing. But it sure doesn't happen is the tank is inverted.

The acceptance volume on Chacho's tank is 2.2 gal of water at 12 psi. The expansion of the heated water is rarely that much and if it is you need a bigger expan tank. Chacho's tank is an Extrol 30.

NJT recommend placement of the expansion tank is a good one. Place the tank, hanging from the 1/2 in line between the pressure reducing valve and the ball valve. Support the tank and line from the pipes above it. Just tape the 1/2 in ball valve handle in the open position. Chacho, you will need only a 1/2" copper tee a short piece of 1/2" copper pipe and a 1/2" female adapter. You will have effectively placed the Expan tank before the pump. It is cheap and easy and you have the two valves in place now to isolate the tank. If you want to check the air in the tank you need a valve to drain the water from the tank. I suggest a Webstone #50672 at Supplyhouse.com Solder it all together. Cheap and easy
 
  #37  
Old 03-20-15, 03:06 PM
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I don't want to argue.
I don't either, so let's not.

What I'm saying is that if you're going to do it, DO IT RIGHT. Don't say "It's OK to mount the tank in any position" because it's NOT OK. Why do something half azz?

I have to say something, because what is written here is PERMANENT for all persons in the future to see. What you've seen and done in your 30 years is one thing... but it's our responsibility to provide CORRECT info for the future, not perpetuate past mistakes.

I agree that they will 'work' in any position, it's the longevity that's at stake. A component installed as directed by the manufacturer and maintained properly has the best chance of a long life.

And now we're agreeing on the other points, so that's a good thing.
 
  #38  
Old 03-21-15, 08:42 AM
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Thank you all for the input. To my knowledge the system is not backfilling due to any leaks. The garage loop leaked before lived here and the previous owner did virtually nothing about it (not sure how long). I could shut the water fill off and monitor pressure to verify. It sounds like moving the tank over to the 1/2" fill line is the least intrusive and best first step for better arranging the components. I like the idea of hanging the tank with the Schrader valve pointing down. It sounds like any position would technically work, but having the valve on bottom is the ideal position. I had already bought the Webstone valve and planned on installing it regardless since I check the tank pressure every year. Nice thing is with that valve I can move the tank now and easily replace it later. Mine was installed in 08 so it's either overdue or a matter of time before it needs done. I'll likely order one as good measure in the next week. My tank is a Honeywell TK300-30-1 by the way, any recommendations on a new one?

I hope this is not taken as trying to confuse the topic, but I'm just trying to arm myself with information. I mentioned the chintzy air separators that are part of my system (one behind the supply line, one above the boiler in the ceiling, and one on the garage heater). Seems my best line of defense is the one inside the boiler that expels behind the supply line raising vertical out of the boiler. Are these genuinely adequate, or maybe phrased a different way, as good as an air scoop or spirovent? My system also has radiator vents as shown in the picture below, which I'm sure are all crusted up inside and non-functioning...likely installed in '57 when my house was built. Again, not trying to confuse the topic, but better understand air separation, the components I have, and things I should be aware of in the future.



Again, thank you for all the help. You guys are seriously experts, and frankly in my experience where I live, the tradesmen are seriously under trained and lack experience with these systems.
 
  #39  
Old 03-21-15, 08:53 AM
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I hope this is not taken as trying to confuse the topic, but I'm just trying to arm myself with information. I mentioned the chintzy air separators that are part of my system (one behind the supply line, one above the boiler in the ceiling, and one on the garage heater). Seems my best line of defense is the one inside the boiler that expels behind the supply line raising vertical out of the boiler. Are these genuinely adequate, or maybe phrased a different way, as good as an air scoop or spirovent?
IMO they are fine.

In fact I find air scoops not to work as well from my experience.. The placement of air vents you have do a better job IMO...

I may get arguments from some regarding this.
 
  #40  
Old 03-21-15, 09:04 AM
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And just a note the industry standard on exp tank installation is hanging them... but watts states...

Series ETX may be installed in a tee or any other suitable tapping in the heating system and can be installed in a vertical or horizontal position. Series ETSX are floor models.
Caution:
Tank must be supported in horizontal
position to prevent damage to the tank.


And in regards to troops post, If the exp tanks are similar in design why are there two different suggestions and how to install these..?

Case in point, manufacturers instructions:

Mount tank vertically only. Ensure the piping can support the entire weight of the tank when full of water.

Do not install the EXTROL on a dead-end pipe or wherever air can collect. This can cause corrosion and possible leakage.



Possibly a discussion for another thread.... Just wanted to play devils advocate here...
 
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