NewYorker Boiler - Wood & Oil Combination


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Old 10-18-14, 04:24 AM
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NewYorker Boiler - Wood & Oil Combination

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Trying to figure out the Schematic for the NewYorker Boiler combination furnace (wood & Oil) mainly the part where B1 wire goes to Isolating Relay, and then to the Oil Burner. On the actual boiler there are 2 wires (black/white) meeting and one black of each connects to the B1 & B2 terminals of the triple Aquastat. The problem is that B1 & B2 are the "hot" and neutral terminals, not the 2 "hots" that are going to the terminals. Here's what i'm thinking: one pair of black/white wires going to the Isolating Relay are actually both "hot" and are looping from B1 of the triple Aquastat then going to the Isolating Relay, and coming back to join with the Oil Burner wires. Your comments would be appreciated...thanks...
 
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Old 10-18-14, 08:00 AM
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Hi Bossman,

THe drawing you posted is from the installation manual?

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying, correct me if I'm wrong:

On the actual boiler there are 2 wires (black/white) meeting
When you say 'wires', do you mean 'CABLES' ? In other words, there are TWO CABLES, each with a WHITE and a BLACK, meeting at the aquastat, correct?

one black of each connects to the B1 & B2 terminals of the triple Aquastat.
Further you are saying that one BLACK from one CABLE goes to the B1 terminal, and the BLACK from the other CABLE goes to the B2 terminal?

What happens to each of the WHITE wires in these two cables?

Where are the other ends of these two cables coming from?

Was this 'pre-wired' from the factory like this? or are you working with an installed unit that was wired by 'others'?
 
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Old 10-18-14, 08:06 AM
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The way that isolating relay is drawn, there is a short circuit on the secondary of the transformer.

I believe that the coil for the relay itself should be drawn in series with the connections to R and G on that control.

R and G are basically a 'thermostat' connection. Jumpering them would activate the relay in the control if there was 120VAC at the transformer primary. By permanently jumpering them as shown, the relay would be controlled by switching the 120VAC to the primary of the transformer, which is done with the 4006 aquastat.

What is the model of the relay? Is it a Honeywell R8239 model?
 
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Old 10-18-14, 08:10 AM
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NewYorker Boiler combination furnace
What is the full model of the boiler?

Can you find a manual on-line and post a link to it?
 
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Old 10-18-14, 09:13 AM
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- yes, 2 cables with each having a black and white wire
- the 2 white wires are marratted
- the other ends are coming from the oil burner and the isolating relay on the wood boiler
- don't know who wired the combination boiler
- the 2 black wires on the B1/B2 must not be "hots" because B1/B2 are for a "hot" and a neurtral wire.
 
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Old 10-18-14, 09:18 AM
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the L4006B aquastat and the isolating relay on the wood boiler shut off the oil burner when a certain temperature is reached in the wood boiler, that's how I see it, if no wood boiler is on, the oil pump comes on by the temperature of the oil boiler water, and when the T T terminals in the triple aquastat are closed...
 
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Old 10-18-14, 09:22 AM
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a short circuit in the isolating relay? yes the schematic seems to indicate that, but I take it as
an error in the schematic...
 
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Old 10-18-14, 09:27 AM
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if the cable (black/white wires) coming from the isolating relay are both "hots", then the picture is becoming clearer to me...
 
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Old 10-18-14, 09:31 AM
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this schematic is not exactly like the actual wiring in the combination furnaces, in the actual furnace wiring the L4008B aquastat keeps the wood circulator always running, and the other "hot" wire inside the aquastat is on the other termainl, so when the switch closes in the aquastat, the "hot" goes to the isolating relay, and opens the switch cutting off connection to the oil burner.
 
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Old 10-18-14, 09:43 AM
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- the 2 white wires are marratted
I believe this is PEI-speak for 'wire nutted'?

- the 2 black wires on the B1/B2 must not be "hots" because B1/B2 are for a "hot" and a neurtral wire.
Correct... B2 is hardwired inside the aquastat to L2 and C2. They are all neutrals.

the L4006B aquastat and the isolating relay on the wood boiler shut off the oil burner when a certain temperature is reached in the wood boiler, that's how I see it, if no wood boiler is on, the oil pump comes on by the temperature of the oil boiler water, and when the T T terminals in the triple aquastat are closed...
I see it that way too. When the water is hot, the oil burner is disabled and the wood circulator runs.

The room thermostat in the home must also be wired to the T T terminals in the aquastat, is that correct?

I take it as an error in the schematic...
It has to be, otherwise that transformer would long ago be toast. That's why I asked if it's a Honeywell 8239 type control... a transformer and a plug in relay on a cover plate for a 4" utility box. If so, it is as I said, the coil for the relay is in series with the connections to R and G.

- the other ends are coming from the oil burner and the isolating relay on the wood boiler
Can you draw and post how it is actually wired?
 
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Old 10-18-14, 09:53 AM
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I answered my own question:

Canadians refer to them [wire nuts] by Marettes ...
http://www.tnb.ca/en/brands/marrette/
 
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Old 10-18-14, 02:27 PM
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I am comfortable with my new enlightenment on the circuit, thank you all for your attention
and valuable input...
 
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Old 10-18-14, 02:49 PM
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would one apply 24 VAC directly to the door motor to see if it is working?...how would aquastat #3 on the schematic be tested? it has 2 normally closed switches inside it...
 
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Old 10-18-14, 03:26 PM
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I'd like to know the answers to my questions please:

What is the model of the relay? Is it a Honeywell R8239 model?
What is the full model of the boiler?

Can you find a manual on-line and post a link to it?
The room thermostat in the home must also be wired to the T T terminals in the aquastat, is that correct?
Can you draw and post how it is actually wired?
 
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Old 10-18-14, 03:29 PM
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would one apply 24 VAC directly to the door motor to see if it is working?
You could, but wherever you get your 24VAC from, be careful not to 'backfeed' the transformer because that will produce 120VAC on the primary.

how would aquastat #3 on the schematic be tested? it has 2 normally closed switches inside it...
What is the model of the aquastat?

I don't believe both switches are 'normally closed', if that's even the correct terminology.

Do they both only have TWO screws each?
 
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Old 10-18-14, 03:37 PM
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Aquastat 3 is a SAFETY DEVICE.

If the boiler temperature exceeds the HIGH setting, the 'DUMP ZONE' valve will open in order to dump excess heat.

This also triggers the aquastat which will run the 'system circulator' to move that heat through the dump zone.

It will also energize the door motor to close in order to bring the fire down by throttling the available air to the fire.

I'm not 100% convinced that aquastat is wired correctly.

I would really like to see a 'factory' diagram... you never did answer this question either:

THe drawing you posted is from the installation manual?
I don't ask rhetorical questions, please answer them.
 
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Old 10-18-14, 04:54 PM
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don't believe it's from the installation manual...
 
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Old 10-18-14, 04:58 PM
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this schematic may not totally fit the actual combination boiler...
 
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Old 10-18-14, 05:39 PM
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I tend to agree, if the switches inside the safety aquastat are both N.C. then the dump zone valve is always open, it shouldn't open until there is a overheating of the wood boiler...
 
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Old 10-18-14, 05:42 PM
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yes the thermostat is connected to the T T terminals in the triple aquastat by way of the zone valves end switches...
 
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Old 10-18-14, 05:45 PM
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do you believe the black wire from the B1 of the triple aquastat to the isolating relay is a "hot" loop back to the oil burner wires?...
 
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Old 10-19-14, 04:47 AM
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would you please explain further about the "backfeed" of the transformer? thanks
 
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Old 10-19-14, 05:27 AM
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another schematic of a boiler circuit, and the L4081A safety aquastat has 2 N.C. internal switches, the zone valve controlled by it is Normally Open (N.C.)...

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Old 10-19-14, 09:23 AM
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It's not really proper to refer to any aquastat as 'Normally Open' or 'Normally Closed'.

Rather, they are referred to as 'Opens on temperature rise' or 'Closes on temperature rise'.

Some aquastats have THREE terminals and depending on which terminals are used they can be configured either way.

Yes, it IS just a switch, but the switching ACTION is defined differently.

If you add in the built in DIFFerential, it gets real confusing... differentials can be either additive or subtractive.

would you please explain further about the "backfeed" of the transformer? thanks
A transformer will work in both directions. If you apply 120VAC to the primary, you will get 24VAC on the secondary.

If you apply 24VAC to the secondary, you will get 120VAC on the primary.

(which by the way is the reason that using a portable generator during a power outage is VERY dangerous to linemen if the user of the generator does not use a proper transfer switch and accidentally 'backfeeds' the power grid.)

So if you apply 24VAC to the motor from some external source, and do NOT disconnect the transformer wires from that motor, you will 'backfeed' the transformer and will have 120VAC on the primary.

OK... we've gone all around the block on this... you have answered 'most' of my questions I guess... but at this point, I'm not sure what exactly you are asking.

What are your questions ?
 
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Old 10-19-14, 02:35 PM
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My Questions:

- am I right that the cable from the B1 of triple aquastat to the Isolating Relay is really a "hot" loop that goes back to the Oil burner wires to turn the burner on or off depending on the switch in the Isolating Relay?...
 
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Old 10-19-14, 04:35 PM
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I don't have enough information to answer that exactly...

I need to know exactly how your system is currently wired.

When you said that the two white wires were maretted and nowhere else, it tells me that there may be a wiring error.

According to the diagrams which you have posted, there should be a HOT wire coming from B1, going to relay contacts on the 8235 relay. From the other contact on the relay, a wire should go to the hot of the oil burner.

That relay should enable and disable the oil burner depending on whether or not the other boiler is keeping the water hot.
 
 

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