Simple boiler bypass


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Old 10-29-14, 02:37 PM
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Simple boiler bypass

Hi,
I currently have a Hydrotherm Boiler HC-100 that is 47 years old and still working.
Next summer I plan to remove the old one and then have a license plumber install the new one.
I drew a layout as per the Hydrotherm installation manual but would like to add a simple boiler bypass as recommended by the manufacturer. My current boiler has three old Electro-Zone valves and one Circulator. I have read the instructions but do not understand how to layout a simple bypass with the new system.

The attached jpg file contains only a differential bypass valve.
Please, pardon my ignorance but need someone to look at the pdf file and tell me how to connect a simple bypass to my new system?
Thanks a million for your help.

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Old 10-29-14, 02:56 PM
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What type of heat emitters do you have in the home?
 
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Old 10-29-14, 03:22 PM
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I have baseboard heating.
Thanks
 
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Old 10-29-14, 03:34 PM
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Copper tube with aluminum fins? or cast iron?

If you have copper fin tube, chances are you don't need a bypass at all. The differential bypass should be enough.

If you have cast iron though, you may need a bypass.

I guess your original setup didn't have one?
 
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Old 10-29-14, 03:36 PM
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By the way... I doubt you will find parts for those Electro-Zone valves in the future. Are you considering upgrading to modern valves when you do the changeover?
 
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Old 10-29-14, 05:13 PM
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NJ Trooper,
Thanks for your quick reply. I have copper tube with aluminum fins. I read somewhere in this forum that a boiler bypass is required to prevent the cool returning water from entering the cast iron boiler and causing the flue gases to condense and cause corrosion. Way back in 1995 I bought an Electro_Zone valve, which I still have.
These bronze valves will last forever, the only thing I have done is replace the "O" ring seals and they could easily last another 30 years !! I will definitely consider upgrading to modern valves when I do the changeover. I was wondering how to do a simple boiler bypass with the system that I have? The Hydrotherm manual is kind of confusing, it mentioned that the supply zone valves must be connected to the bypass and the system return with the balancing valves must have a connection coming from the boiler bypass. I am kind of loss. I guess a diagram showing the bypass will be very helpful.
 
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Old 10-29-14, 06:14 PM
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I read somewhere in this forum that a boiler bypass is required to prevent the cool returning water from entering the cast iron boiler and causing the flue gases to condense and cause corrosion.
Generally so. BUT, systems with fin tube BB heat up very quickly and the return water gets up to temperature quickly enough that for the most part it's not a problem. You will have some condensation on a cold start, but it's not SUSTAINED cold return water so the boiler has time to run long enough to dry the condensation before it shuts down again.

it mentioned that the supply zone valves must be connected to the bypass and the system return with the balancing valves must have a connection coming from the boiler bypass.
I don't understand that myself! Is this an on-line manual? I'd like to see it...
 
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Old 10-29-14, 06:36 PM
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I currently have a Hydrotherm Boiler HC-100 that is 47 years old and still working.
Next summer I plan to remove the old one and then have a license plumber install the new one.
Why on earth would you do that???

I have an HC 85...

IMO the one with the last hydrotherm in NJ please turn out the lights.... LOL....

Can you take pics??? Just curios is all....


Last you can use regular zone valves as I have... I am sure you have a powerpile as I do and the wireing is very simple...

This what you have?

 
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Old 10-29-14, 07:00 PM
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John Siegenthaler P.E. wrote an article in the March 2014 issue of HPAC entitled Do not go Unprotected page 32 .This should cover what your looking for.
 
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Old 10-29-14, 07:03 PM
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John Siegenthaler P.E. wrote an article in the March 2014 issue of HPAC entitled Do not go Unprotected page 32 .This should cover what your looking for.
Nonsense saves... the boiler was there 47 yrs with no bypass... As well as mine.....

Although bypass piping has their place.....
 
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Old 10-29-14, 07:10 PM
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Not every system needs a bypass.

And, if that differential bypass is properly installed and adjusted... guess what? it's a BYPASS!
 
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Old 10-29-14, 08:24 PM
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Mr. Siegenthaler disagrees , I was at a home today were a cast iron boiler 10 years old was leaking .
 
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Old 10-30-14, 07:35 AM
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Mr. Siegenthaler disagrees
And that's his perogative.

I was at a home today were a cast iron boiler 10 years old was leaking .
And I'm sure you have the evidence to suggest and conclude that this is due to no bypass installed?


A properly designed system with fin tube baseboard RARELY needs any kind of bypass at all.
 
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Old 10-30-14, 11:11 AM
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Excellent discussion about boiler bypass. Attached are jpeg's file of the first page of the Hydrotherm manual.
Page 9, (also attached) describes installation and operating instructions (piping for zoned systems).
I put a question mark on to bypass and from bypass, this is what i do not understand what they mean?
Hopefully; there is an easier way to explain the layout configuration for the bypass.
I downloaded the HWX-105 manual from a site on the net.
Thanks for your help,

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Old 10-30-14, 11:17 AM
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The first diagram that you posted showing the differential bypass connecting back to the return side is the same thing as what you just posted.

The FROM bypass and TO bypass are connected together.
 
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Old 10-30-14, 01:10 PM
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Thanks for your feedback ! ! i was under the impression that a differential bypass and a boiler bypass have different functions. I thought the differential bypass is primarily used to reduce system noise especially in wall mounted boilers and a boiler bypass is used on modern boilers to raise or lower the return water temperature to conform with boiler flow rate.
In my specific case, will the differential bypass also reduce the return water temperature?
Again Thanks _
 
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Old 10-30-14, 01:35 PM
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Per B&G.. Read description in the instruction manual...

http://s3.supplyhouse.com/product_fi...47-Install.pdf

I dont think you need a Diff - bypass IMO.. Im sure a taco 007 would be sufficiant for your zones.

As far as boiler bypass, and a system bypass again most likely not needed..

Bypass_Piping_Explaination

You did not answer my post on why you are replacing the boiler? Post #8..

Last did you do a heat loss calc of the home? That boiler most likely is too big thats there and your just replacing with another oversized boiler...

IMO put standard zone valve, and a zone panel and be done with it. Change the boiler only if it starts leaking IMO.
 
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Old 10-30-14, 01:44 PM
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The differential by pass is used when the system pump runs at one speed and when all zones are open the by pass valve is closed and as the zones close the valve opens to let the pump flow through to prevent the pump from over heating. A boiler bypass is used to protect the heat exchanger from condensate which is sulphuric acid .When the heat emitters are sheading more btus than the burner can produce the heat exchanger may produce condensate as the boiler water temperature will cool until the heat produced matches the heat delivered to room and if the boiler must operate at or below the dew point than it will . To accurately control this condition the bypass should have a boiler water return temperature feed back. This information is what I understand from the article by John Siengenthaler in the March 2014 issue of HPAC.
 
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Old 10-30-14, 01:45 PM
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Thanks for your reply,
Attached are JPEG's of my HC-100 and Electro-Zone valves. I do have a powerpile, which I replaced only once in the last 19 years. I have talked to few of my neighbors and some of them still have Hydrotherm boilers with no bypass at all. IMO, these boilers are indestructible and extremely easy to maintain. When I bought the house the previous owner left all the Hydrotherm literature from circa 1967.
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Old 10-30-14, 01:47 PM
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Attached are JPEG's of my HC-100
Dont see the boiler.......
 
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Old 10-30-14, 02:17 PM
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Thanks for your reply,
I still have to read the info in the links you provided.
You are probably correct, i did a heat loss calculation under the worst condition and it comes out that the total Heat Loss= 81,381 BTU/HR, based on this calculation i selected the HWX-105 in case i decide to heat the basement in the future.
The reason I wanna change the boiler is that there is a cast iron flange in the back of the boiler and it has a lot corrosion, i patched it with J weld and it has not leak yet. Other than that the boiler is working beautiful. Never had a problem with it.
Thanks for all your valuable information and support.
Attached is some basic info on the HC-100 from Circa 1967 and a detail of the cast iron flange corrosion.
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Old 10-30-14, 02:24 PM
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I could not attached both files, they were 2MB each had to resize.
Here it is ! !
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Old 10-30-14, 02:30 PM
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Thanks for your technical information on differential VS boiler bypass. Can you provide a link to John Siengenthaler March 2014 issue of HPAC?
 
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Old 10-30-14, 02:54 PM
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i was under the impression that a differential bypass and a boiler bypass have different functions
They do in fact, but a bypass is still a bypass.

There are two basic types of bypass, BOILER and SYSTEM.

BOILER bypass diverts some of the circulating flow away from the boiler. Flow through the boiler is reduced. The RETURN temperature to the boiler is not changed! It remains whatever it is, but the VOLUME of cooler return water to the boiler is reduced. With less flow through the boiler, there is a higher differential ( DELTA T ) across the boiler between the return and the supply. This benefits the boiler by raising it's AVERAGE temperature... but the return water is still cool, only the SUPPLY side gets hotter, faster.

SYSTEM bypass diverts some of the flow away from the system by returning some of the hot supply from the boiler directly back to the boiler return. This raises the temperature of the RETURN water, and the Delta T across the boiler goes DOWN, less difference. But, it also raises the average temperature in the boiler just the same. The boiler gets hotter, faster, because it is recirculating some of it's own water.

Either type of bypass is a pipe from the supply out back to the return in of the boiler. The difference is where they are connected.

A BOILER bypass pipe is on the BOILER side of the circulator pump.

A SYSTEM bypass pipe is on the SYSTEM side of the pump.

This is an example of a manually adjusted BOILER bypass:



This is an example of a thermostatically controlled SYSTEM bypass:



Note the location of the bypass relative to the pump.

SYSTEM bypass does not need to be thermostatically controlled, it too can be adjusted manually with good quality globe valves.

Here's another BOILER bypass that might be easier to envision what happens to the flow:



The DIFFERENTIAL bypass is a type of SYSTEM bypass. It's purpose is to even out the flow in the system when varying numbers of zones are calling for heat. When all zones are calling for heat the diff bypass valve is adjusted for just a wee bit of flow. Any time less than all zones are calling the diff bypass valve opens more to compensate, diverting the flow that would go to closed zones back to the boiler. Being that the times that all zones are calling will be relatively seldom, the majority of heat calls will have some system bypass flow.

When all zones ARE calling you can be dang sure it's very cold outside and the boiler is going to run long enough to dry itself out without the need for any bypass at all.

A DIFF BYPASS is NOT used to keep the pump from overheating. Centrifugal pumps draw LESS CURRENT when they are not pumping as much water because they are doing LESS WORK.

There are pros and cons to both boiler and system bypass, and we can argue which is best till we're all blue in the face, so I'm not going to engage in that.

I WILL say that my personal preference for a 2-3 even 4 zone fin tube baseboard system is to use a SYSTEM bypass. In spite of the fact that a system bypass diverts some flow from the system, the pump will have enough capacity to provide proper flow through the heating zones AND the bypass. I believe that warming the return water to the boiler is a better choice.

BUT, MOST fin tube baseboard systems do NOT need a bypass circuit.

Because fin tube baseboard heats up fast, as fast as the boiler can pump the hot water to it, the need for any bypass is generally NIL. No matter what Siegenthaler says. (sorry John, if we disagree on this... but I bet we don't really. Feel free to jump in if you are reading this.)

With LARGE WATER VOLUME CAST IRON SYSTEMS a SYSTEM bypass is NOT advisable. Those systems need the full capacity of the pump to properly distribute the heat to all the radiators.

THIS is the type of system that would benefit the most from a thermostatically controlled bypass system.
 

Last edited by NJT; 10-30-14 at 03:12 PM.
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Old 10-30-14, 03:09 PM
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I thought the differential bypass is primarily used to reduce system noise especially in wall mounted boilers
Nothing 'especial' about wall mounted boilers. The 'system noise' comes from high velocity water traveling through the baseboard zones, not specifically from the boiler itself.

DIFF BYPASS reduces velocity noise with ANY type of boiler.

By the way... too high velocity in the system slowly erodes the pipes from the inside out, particularly near fittings... elbows and such... because at those points there can be very high velocity 'eddy currents' formed.

Also, those eddy currents can very often be blamed on improper prep of the pipes. The inner edge of the pipes must be 'reamed' smooth after cutting in order to reduce turbulence and eddy currents.

Following quote from: Pinhole Leaks in Copper Pipes
Failure of the plumbing contractor to properly ream and smooth the cut ends of tubing prior to soldering, as required in ASTM B828, can also cause turbulent flow and erosion corrosion. The resulting corrosion rates can be very high and result in short term failures as documented in several case history studies [11,14].
This is another reason that I advocate the use of 'long sweep' elbows... and differential bypass valves.
 
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Old 10-30-14, 03:15 PM
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WOW ! ! EXCELLENT EXPLANATION OF THE DIFFERENT TYPE OF BYPASSES. I need to read this information a few times. NICE JOB !!
 
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Old 10-30-14, 03:16 PM
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a boiler bypass is used on modern boilers to raise or lower the return water temperature to conform with boiler flow rate.

In my specific case, will the differential bypass also reduce the return water temperature?
Boiler bypass can not RAISE the return water temperature, in fact, it has no effect on it at all.

Because a diff bypass is a form of SYSTEM bypass, it will RAISE the return water temperature, which can be beneficial.

The basic idea behind ANY bypass is to RAISE THE AVERAGE TEMPERATURE of the boiler.

BOILER bypass does this by reducing the flow through the boiler and increasing the Delta T, which raises the average temperature.

SYSTEM bypass does this by recycling the boiler supply water back to the return, also raising the average temperature.

(I know I'm repeating myself, trying to drive home the concepts)
 
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Old 10-30-14, 03:19 PM
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I dont think you need a Diff - bypass
I disagree... I think EVERY system with zone valves should have a diff bypass.

What's the 'downside' ? (aside from the obvious small added cost) ?
 
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Old 10-30-14, 03:21 PM
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Wow your is much more nicer looking... (You sure its an HC 100? Mines an HC 85 and has two burners. Looks like yours has one...)

[ATTACH=CONFIG]40948[/ATTACH]

Mine... ( Note: I probably will not replace until it disintegrates into a pile of dust...LOL)

 
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Old 10-30-14, 03:23 PM
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With LARGE WATER VOLUME CAST IRON SYSTEMS a SYSTEM bypass is NOT advisable. Those systems need the full capacity of the pump to properly distribute the heat to all the radiators.
Also, I think a monoflo system needs full pump flow for the diverter tees to function effectively.

My large-volume system with cast-iron baseboards works fine without a boiler bypass (no condensation over 60+ years of operation). My supposition is that with the boiler being oversized, the boiler water temperature quickly catches up after a heat call. Also, the boiler is warm start, which helps.

If my existing boiler craps out and has to be replaced, undoubtedly a properly sized, cold-start, replacement boiler will need a boiler bypass.
 
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Old 10-30-14, 03:26 PM
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A boiler bypass is used to protect the heat exchanger from condensate which is sulphuric acid
Saves, there are MANY types of acid formed from flue gas condensate.

Sulfuric is probably dominant with oil fired condensate, but there is also significant CARBONIC.

With gas fired systems CARBONIC is probably the dominant, with very little sulfuric.

To accurately control this condition the bypass should have a boiler water return temperature feed back. This information is what I understand from the article by John Siengenthaler in the March 2014 issue of HPAC.
This is expensive overkill for a three zone fin tube baseboard system.
 
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Old 10-30-14, 03:34 PM
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a monoflo system needs full pump flow for the diverter tees to function effectively
Yes, good point...

Monoflo (tm) have the advantage that they have a 'built in' bypass. A portion of the circulating water in the mains does not ever go to a radiator, so the return in general is warmer. (IF they are designed properly without too many diverter tees on too small a main pipe loop)
 
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Old 10-30-14, 04:01 PM
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No matter what Siegenthaler says.
Siegenthaler's book has several things that I don't quite agree with. (I'm going by the 2nd edition, so maybe the new edition has been changed in these areas).

In the chapter on expansion tanks, he addresses "standard" tanks, some like me call them "conventional" tanks, usually hanging from floor joists above the boiler. (Nowadays, I guess the ubiquitous bladder-type expansion tanks are conventional, but I digress.)

Siegenthaler says that a properly sized standard tank will reach a pressure of about 5 psi below the system's pressure relief-valve set-point when the system's maximum operating temperature is reached. I suspect that there is math behind that. But, if the cold pressure in the tank is, say, 15 psi, and the pressure at 180 deg is 25 psi, then there are some potential problems there, I think. (30 psi is the typical relief valve set-point.)

Elsewhere in the same chapter, Siegenthaler says that "standard" expansion tanks should be drained and refilled twice a year to prevent waterlogging because the tank's air cushion will be depleted by "air vents" on the system. Of course, automatic air elimination devices should not be installed on systems with "standard" expansion tanks - only bladder tanks. My standard expansion tank is never routinely drained and refilled, and its air cushion lasts indefinitely.

Siegenthaler is a real engineer that has contributed greatly to the hydronics industry, and I recommend his book. But sometimes, I've heard, engineers can be mistaken?
 
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Old 10-30-14, 05:06 PM
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Monoflo (tm) have the advantage that they have a 'built in' bypass.
Thanks, I hadn't thought of that.
 
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Old 10-30-14, 05:10 PM
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I have not read any of his books only some of what he has written in HPAC. I don't of course feel I am blindly following as gospel everything he writes . The expansion tank emptying I also don't agree , if it is piped properly and there are no air vents the air cushion should remain for a few years ,and if it needs more air a bicycle pump will easily replace it with out draining . My own boiler tank has been in service since 1996 with nothing done to it, that is why I always recommend the bladderless tank . Trooper states that on the coldest day the boiler would not condense . My view is if the boiler is sized properly , on the coldest days the emitters may deliver more heat to the room than the burner can produce the boiler water will cool and if it reaches the condensing temperature damage will be done to the boiler. Boiler installs are getting very expensive and maybe the best boiler protection may be worth the up front expense .
 
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Old 10-30-14, 05:20 PM
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if it needs more air a bicycle pump will easily replace it with out draining .
That would be true for a bladder-type tank with a Schraeder valve, but not for conventional steel tanks.
 
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Old 10-30-14, 05:30 PM
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Why not a conventional tank, don't you have an adapter to screw on to the sediment valve, if not easy to make , all you need is a 1/4 pipe tap and tap drill and a screw cap for a sediment valve ,and a male Schrader valve.
 
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Old 10-30-14, 06:05 PM
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Mine looks nice but like I mentioned before, there is some corrosion between the bolted cast iron circulator flange and the boiler interface. Never had a leak but last year i sanded and jwelded the top of the flange as a precaution. The boiler runs beautiful, the running pressure is always around 15 psi.
I am sure it is HC-100 model with a single burner. Attached is a JPEG with the detail.Name:  CIMG1672.jpg
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