my basic boiler questions


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Old 11-08-14, 07:01 PM
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my basic boiler questions

Hello All! hope all is well!

i was wondering if you guys could please let me know what the devices indicated by arrows A thru J are?

What do the valves indicated by arrows I and J do? what do they shout off or turn on?

PB080016_zps3c9bf89b.jpg Photo by hecho34 | Photobucket

what is that black thing on the vent in the picture below?

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/...ps61b18c68.jpg



thank u very much for ur replies.
 
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Old 11-08-14, 07:57 PM
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Is this a test or do you really not know? I strongly suggest that you buy the book, We Got Steam Heat as it will answer almost all your questions on how to operate this system. After reading you will be far more informed than most repair techs.

We've Got Steam Heat!

Now to answer your questions.

A. Pressuretrol (a Honeywell name but universally used). It controls the start and stop points of the burner in conjunction with the room thermostat.

B. A transformer and something else contained in the box. Not knowing what else is in the box I cannot state positively what it does.

C. Another transformer. I don't know what this one does either but the exposed wiring does not meet the electrical code.

D. Pressure gauge. Shows the steam pressure within the boiler pressure vessel.

E. Gauge glass, shows the water level inside the boiler pressure vessel.

F. Fuel gas pipe to the main burner.

G. Low water cut-off. Prevents firing the main burner if the water level in the pressure vessel is too low. This is a safety device.

H. Bottom blow and/or drain valve. This is to remove sediment and dissolved minerals in the boiler water and also to drain the boiler for maintenance.

I. Upper gauge glass valve. This must be open at all times to properly ascertain the water level in the pressure vessel.

J. Lower gauge glass valve. This must be open at all times to properly ascertain the water level in the pressure vessel.

Regarding the gauge glass valves, they are ONLY closed to allow changing of the gauge glass when in operation OR in a process called "blowing the glass" to ascertain that both upper and lower passages are clear. There is also a drain valve on the bottom of the lower gauge glass valve/fitting to allow draining the glass itself and used in the blowing of the glass. Unfortunately, your boiler, like most in residential installations does not have a useable drain.

The round. black object on the combustion vent is a damper motor that opens and closes an internal damper to limit the draft through the boiler when the main burner is off.

Did I pass?
 

Last edited by NJT; 11-08-14 at 08:33 PM.
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Old 11-08-14, 08:12 PM
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thank you very much. now....when i add water to the boiler how can i know if i added too much water? can you tell by looking at the glass valve? is there such a thing as adding too much water or are these things designed such that no matter what they will stop receiving water when a set point is reached?

i also noticed a LOT of brown water coming out of the drain valve. can i EVER clean out the inside of the boiler of this brown sediments?
 
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Old 11-08-14, 09:00 PM
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when i add water to the boiler how can i know if i added too much water?
There should be a line on the casing near the gauge glass (not glass valve) that shows either the minimum water level or the desired operating level. Generally speaking somewhere between 1/3 full and 2/3 full is acceptable but 1/2 full is best. (added, look at that black tag to the left of the gauge glass)

is there such a thing as adding too much water or are these things designed such that no matter what they will stop receiving water when a set point is reached?
You most definitely can add too much water. An automatic water feed should stop the inflow IF (a) it is working properly and (b) it doesn't leak and (c) there is no bypass piping around the automatic feeder for manually adding water.

i also noticed a LOT of brown water coming out of the drain valve. can i EVER clean out the inside of the boiler of this brown sediments?
Eventually yes. It may take quite a time as you should probably not blow off more than a gallon or so at a time. Best to blow right after the burner shuts off and you have some pressure on the boiler. After a gallon, or maybe even less, the sediments are stirred up to the point where they are mostly floating around in the water rather than concentrating near the valve.

Please buy the book, it is written for the layman and is invaluable to someone that has a steam system. Very few competent residential steam techs left.
 

Last edited by Furd; 11-08-14 at 09:03 PM. Reason: Additional information.
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Old 11-29-14, 04:23 PM
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Why do i have a pressuretrol AND a pressure gauge? Is it possible that the pressure gauge was replaced by the pressuretrol and no one bothered removing the pressure gauge? i am asking this question because the pressure gauge is reading 25 psi when the steam is starting to go up the pipes.
 
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Old 11-29-14, 04:40 PM
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That pig tail under A most likely needs to be cleaned. The pipe needs to be taken apart... 25 psi is not good ... you need to fix asap... IMO no time to learn now during the cold. Call in a pro...

Its a dangerous situation IMO..
 
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Old 11-29-14, 04:53 PM
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the whole boiler system was checked twice just 4 months ago!
do you think the reason why it was showing 25 psi is because i added way too much water???? the water level was only a inch below the top end of the sight glass tube when the water was cold.
 
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Old 11-29-14, 04:58 PM
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Anything can happen in 4 months... Whats your skill level? Are you comfortable working on that system if we guide you? How long do you want no heat or a dangerous situation if things go wrong with your repairs????

Just being realistic is all...
 
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Old 11-29-14, 05:02 PM
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i would call myself a hair breadth below intermediate with my skill level. you could tell me what to do.

i drained the water such that the water level was exactly half in the sight glass tube. then i let the furnace kick back on and it is heating the house now. the most it showed was 11 psi the second time. as i type this the psi is going down to 5 psi.
 
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Old 11-29-14, 05:16 PM
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PSI should not be that high with steam residential... Maybe 2 psi max...

You will need to shut down the system and drain a little. Then remove A and that pig tail below it...

Clean the pig tail out...





Tell us the setting on A... Outside and remove cover and tell us inside setting please....
 
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Old 11-29-14, 06:31 PM
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it is a honeywell pressuretrol model pa404a ( cut out equals cut in plus differential). the outside is at .5 psi and the inside dial ( i am pretty sure it is called the differential dial ) is set between 4 and 5.

also........do you guys know why the high pressure did not make the steam come out of the pressure relief valve?
 

Last edited by group; 11-29-14 at 06:52 PM.
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Old 11-29-14, 07:01 PM
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pressure relief valve should trip at 15 psi.. Maybe someone replaced it with the wrong relief valve... Check the tag...

The diff should be lower IMO... Should be a subtractive diff from what I know. wait for others to chime in...

https://customer.honeywell.com/resou...0s/60-2341.pdf
 
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Old 11-29-14, 07:04 PM
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why the high pressure did not make the steam come out of the pressure relief valve?
Or plugged up.... explosion senerio......
 

Last edited by NJT; 11-29-14 at 07:50 PM. Reason: added some alarms!
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Old 11-29-14, 07:38 PM
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the outside is at .5 psi and the inside dial ( i am pretty sure it is called the differential dial ) is set between 4 and 5.
The diff should be lower IMO...
Yes, it should.

Set the DIFF to 2.0, this will give you a 'cut in' of 0.5 PSI and a 'cut out' of 2.5 PSI.

You might even get by with 1.5 on the DIFF but try 2.0 for now.


do you guys know why the high pressure did not make the steam come out of the pressure relief valve?
Maybe someone replaced it with the wrong relief valve... Check the tag...
If it's a 30 PSI someone who didn't know any better change it out. It should be a 15 PSI valve.

Or plugged up.... explosion senerio......
Worse yet, someone PLUGGED IT! Make sure the pipe is open on the end.

Another possibility is that the pressure gauge is a PAPERWEIGHT. But unless you install another gauge to find out, always err on the side of safety! ASSUME the gauge is correct until you've proven otherwise.

That orange streaking below the gauge glass is a good sign that the seals on the glass are leaking.

Have you bought the book that Furd recommended weeks ago? It's REQUIRED READING. You NEED that book. It's the best $25 you will spend on an education.

If you don't have the manual for the boiler, find it online and download and READ IT.
 
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Old 11-29-14, 07:45 PM
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Should be a subtractive diff from what I know
If the 'cut in' dial on the front is 0-9 PSI, it's an ADDITIVE model.

If the cut in dial is 0-15 it's a subtractive.

That one appears to be 0-9, additive.
 
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Old 11-29-14, 07:47 PM
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so setting the DIFF to 2.0 is as easy as opening the cover to the pressuretrol and turning the dial????
 
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Old 11-29-14, 07:48 PM
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Why do i have a pressuretrol AND a pressure gauge?
Because a PressurTrol is not a gauge, and a gauge is not a PressurTrol.

The PressurTrol is a CONTROL that starts and stops the burner.

You can't determine the pressure in the boiler with a PressurTrol.

The gauge tells you the pressure, but does not CONTROL the burner.
 
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Old 11-29-14, 07:49 PM
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so setting the DIFF to 2.0 is as easy as opening the cover to the pressuretrol and turning the dial????
Yes..................................
 
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Old 11-29-14, 07:50 PM
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Have you looked at the tag on the relief valve yet?

What does it say?
 
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Old 11-29-14, 07:51 PM
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What is the make and model of the boiler?
 
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Old 11-29-14, 07:53 PM
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If you don't clean that pigtail out you are going to go round and round and round in a circle game.

You also need to verify the pressure gauge.

If the relief valve is more than 5 years old, replace it.
 
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Old 11-29-14, 07:53 PM
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Nah! The dial wont turn with my finger. any other ideas?
 
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Old 11-29-14, 07:56 PM
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any other ideas?
Yeah, replace it... it should turn easily.
 
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Old 11-29-14, 08:10 PM
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The boiler is a Burnham IN-5, the pressure relief valve says "set 15 psi" " cap 407 lbs/ hr".
Please note that the differential was at the "1" mark to begin with ...not the 4.5 mark. I didnot read it correctly the first time. ( the number "1" is right underneath a mark that says "diff".?)

I believe the pressure relief valve is working because couple of weeks ago i saw about 2 cups of brown water that came out of it. i constantly have a clean aluminum pan under the relief valve pipe to catch tell tale signs of anything that might have happened during the night or during the week.

I would like to stress that i dont know at what point in the " whole boiling the water-steam being sent up the pipes" is the pressure jumping to 25 psi.
 
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Old 11-29-14, 08:12 PM
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OK then, turn the DIFF up to 2.0 (the DIFF should be not less than 1.5 above the cut in)


If you don't clean that pigtail out you are going to go round and round and round in a circle game.

You also need to verify the pressure gauge.

If the relief valve is more than 5 years old, replace it.
 
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Old 11-29-14, 08:13 PM
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Also, replace the seals on the gauge glass.
 
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Old 11-29-14, 08:15 PM
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I believe the pressure relief valve is working because couple of weeks ago i saw about 2 cups of brown water that came out of it. i constantly have a clean aluminum pan under the relief valve pipe to catch tell tale signs of anything that might have happened during the night or during the week.
"Working" is a relative term.

OK, it opened, so it's not completely plugged.

If it's more than 5 years old, replace it.

If you saw the gauge reading above 15 PSI, it's a good bet the gauge is bad too. Replace it, or add another on a tee fitting on top of the pigtail when you take that apart to clean the pigtail.

Because, if you saw the relief valve open, it means the pigtail is clogged.

You have your marching orders...
 
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Old 11-29-14, 08:18 PM
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Thank you for your time and replies.....is it REALLY bad and DANGEROUS if i leave the diff at 1 ( the way it is now)????
 
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Old 11-29-14, 08:24 PM
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is it REALLY bad and DANGEROUS if i leave the diff at 1 ( the way it is now)????
No, but Honeywell recommends that it never be set closer than 1.5 from the CUT IN, so 2.0 is the minimum setting for a cut in of 0.5

Are you still saying that you can not turn it easily by hand?

What IS, or COULD BE dangerous is a clogged pigtail. If the control can't sense the pressure in the boiler because of a clog in that pigtail, it can't CONTROL the pressure! OK, yes, there is a 15 PSI relief valve, but you can't depend on that to control the pressure... that's an EMERGENCY SAFETY valve that by all rights should NEVER open.
 
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Old 11-29-14, 08:29 PM
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It turned easily. thank you. i was turning the other way and also was trying to be extra gentle with the dial.
 
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Old 11-29-14, 08:32 PM
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Do you guys know of any videos or literature online that talks about unclogging pigtails? where do you start?....how do you take em apart etc etc
 
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Old 11-29-14, 08:42 PM
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I know that your gauge is defective... you can leave that gauge there and install a gauge on a tee fitting on the same pigtail that the PressurTrol is on, like this:

 
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Old 11-29-14, 08:47 PM
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Do you guys know of any videos or literature online that talks about unclogging pigtails? where do you start?....how do you take em apart etc etc
I guess you could google and maybe find something... maybe youtube? I don't know of any offhand.

Let me google that for you

Whoever installed that stuff on your boiler wasn't thinking about service I don't think because it looks like those transformers might have to be removed to be able to spin that pigtail off. The pigtail simply unscrews from the boiler... but if you don't have room to spin it, yer 5cr3w3d.

Is the PressurTrol far enough from the boiler to be able to spin that off the top?

You would have to shut down the power to the boiler, remove the wire to the PressurTrol, and remove the PressurTrol from the pigtail.

You might be able to get a wire if it's flexible enough down into the pigtail without removing it.

Do you have an air compressor? You might try blowing it out.
 
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Old 11-29-14, 08:53 PM
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Here's another example:



This guy don't trust gauges any more than I do!

By the way, don't do what this guy did. Use only RED BRASS pigtails.
 

Last edited by NJT; 11-30-14 at 08:38 AM.
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Old 11-29-14, 09:05 PM
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I cant seem 2 figure out how to unsrew the pigtail and the pressuretrol........there just isnt enough room for them......on the other hand If they somehow screwed them in then i should be able to screw them out the same way ( how am i gonna do that is a mystery 2 me right now)
 
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Old 11-29-14, 09:12 PM
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Nope! dont look like the pigtail nor the pressuretrol can be unscrewed so easily.i feel i need to get them transformers out of the way first.
 
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Old 11-29-14, 09:33 PM
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Anyways I just realized i might be able to hand unscrew that "internal syphon gauge" itself. do you guys think i could unscrew it and put in a new gauge ( hand tightened). if the pressure reads 2psi or low, then i can just forget about cleaning the pigtail ...right???
 
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Old 11-30-14, 08:03 AM
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If they somehow screwed them in then i should be able to screw them out the same way
They obviously installed the pigtail and control before they installed the transformers.

do you guys think i could unscrew it and put in a new gauge ( hand tightened)
Probably... is this your gauge?

100325-01 - Burnham 100325-01 - Steam Pressure Gauge for IN-INPV Boilers

if the pressure reads 2psi or low, then i can just forget about cleaning the pigtail ...right???
In my opinion, no.

The very fact that at some point the pressure in the boiler rose enough to open the relief valve is evidence enough that the pigtail is clogged.

It's VERY common for those pigtails to get clogged up. It should be a fairly common routine maintenance item on the servicers checklist.

That's why I don't understand why they would mount all that other stuff in the way, making it impossible to easily remove and replace the parts.
 

Last edited by NJT; 11-30-14 at 08:37 AM.
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Old 11-30-14, 08:34 AM
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Have you bought the book that Furd recommended weeks ago? It's REQUIRED READING. You NEED that book. It's the best $25 you will spend on an education.

If you don't have the manual for the boiler, find it online and download and READ IT.


Here's my to-do list for your boiler...

1. Remove and clean pigtail.

If you have to remove the transformer boxes to get it off, then that's what you have to do. Don't reinstall them in the same position, but move them to allow removing the pigtail in the future.

When you reinstall the pigtail and the control, install a TEE fitting below the PressurTrol and either mount a second gauge there, or put a plug in the side port so that in the future one can install a temporary gauge for verification of the primary gauge.

A decent selection of pigtails can be found at McMaster-Carr:

http://www.mcmaster.com/#siphon-tubes/=utknc0

1a. Correct that sub-standard, poor workmanship, wiring while you are doing this.

2. If you opt to replace the original pressure gauge, install a pigtail siphon tube on that gauge ALSO. This will allow the use of any gauge (i.e. not an internal siphon type) in the future, and probably make the job of replacing a gauge easier.

3. Replace the RELIEF VALVE.

4. Remove the gauge glass, clean it out so you can see the water level. Check both valves to make sure they aren't plugged up, replace if necessary, and replace the seals on the gauge glass.
 

Last edited by NJT; 11-30-14 at 08:56 AM.
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Old 11-30-14, 09:09 AM
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Got it! Will buy and replace as you said.

I totally forgot why i started this discussion last night to begin with!

My pilot wont stay lit . every time i light it and release the red button the pilot goes off.

I cleaned the thermocouple with wd 40 and also the tip of the pilot with wd 40. still doesnt work.
can you guys tell me what is going on?

( i lit the pilot. pilot lit. house warmed up. noticed the pressure gauge by chance. was talking about the pressure with u guys. house got cold. noticed the pilot went off again.)
 

Last edited by group; 11-30-14 at 09:47 AM.
 

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