Move water faster in one of the zones

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  #1  
Old 11-17-14, 06:44 PM
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Move water faster in one of the zones

I need help with new water heat baseboard we installed in the basement. We have a 3 zone setup. I extended zone 1 to the basement and ran baseboard along the wall. We cut and extended the pipe on the return.

All the other zone has adequate heat, but the new section in the basement warm to the touch, there is no heat being generated. I am wondering if there is a way to increase the water circulation.

When I bleed the water from zone 1 while the heat is ON, the water circulates and the baseboard generate heats, but once I stop, it returns to normal warm temperature after about an hour. I would imagine if I add something to increase the water circulation, the baseboard would get warmer.

If I can add something to make the water circulate faster, please let me know.

Thanks
 
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Old 11-17-14, 07:49 PM
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Welcome to the forums.

I moved your post to the boiler section as you have a hot water system.

We need more information like do you have one circulation pump and three zone valves ?

Some well lit pictures of your system will be a real plus in us helping you.
http://www.doityourself.com/forum/el...rt-images.html
 
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Old 11-17-14, 08:02 PM
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I extended zone 1 to the basement and ran baseboard along the wall. We cut and extended the pipe on the return.
How exactly did you do this? With tees?

Or did you cut into the end of the loop on zone 1 then continue to the return where zone 1 was previously connected?

Lets start there..

Also make and model of boiler?
Pressure and temp reading on boiler gauge?
Also make and model of circulator...

Post this and we can help....

Welcome to the forums...
 
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Old 11-17-14, 08:27 PM
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I'm betting that there's an air blockage................

Pics will help, yes, because when we see the setup we can tell you how to purge the air. Hopefully you have 'purge stations' on the piping.
 
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Old 11-18-14, 07:13 AM
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Hopefully you used monoflo tees. Take a look at this link and read the part about radiation below the main. Assuming zone 1 is upstairs and you added baseboard downstairs in the basement.

http://www.comfort-calc.net/monoflo_system.html
 
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Old 11-18-14, 07:37 AM
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Just so as not to confuse the issue...

If the new section of baseboard was added IN SERIES with the old loop, monoflo(tm) tees are not needed.

Until we get a clear explanation of how the new baseboard was added, there's nothing more we can say.
 
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Old 11-18-14, 11:05 AM
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Thanks for the replies.

I extended the pipe on the return of zone 1 which is the first floor.

I have attached a pic showing the pipe cut and extension.Name:  20141118_112354.jpg
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Name:  20141118_112409.jpg
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I do not think there is a pump installed on Zone 1

The new pipes and baseboards are not installed using the Monoflow system. Every new baseboard are installed have a return pipe done in series.

If I can add a pump to move the water faster. I do not know if it can damage the system if the water is moving too fast or how to get this fix.

Thanks
 
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Old 11-18-14, 11:53 AM
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I have attached a pic showing the pipe cut and extension.
I can't tell from the pics which are the new pipes... Is it the pipe labeled " I " that elbows off to the right side?

What is that second picture supposed to be showing us?

Can you stand back and take some pictures that show us everything?

I do not think there is a pump installed on Zone 1
What makes you think that?

Also, please answer questions that Mike asked:

Also make and model of boiler?
Pressure and temp reading on boiler gauge?
Also make and model of circulator...
 
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Old 11-18-14, 12:29 PM
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The pipe label 1, the extension is going to the left and return on the right.

I will take picture when I am back home.

The temperature would go from 150 to 170. I am not sure about the pressure.

It is a HydroThermo Broiler.

I can not find a circulator or a pump anywhere in the Boiler Room, When the heat is ON, I can hear a clicking sound in from the the wall in part of the bedroom, sound like a spinning wheel,
 
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Old 11-18-14, 12:45 PM
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In the second picture, I see what I believe appears to be a pump on that pipe to the boiler.
 
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Old 11-18-14, 01:08 PM
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The Second Picture is the main pipe that goes into the boiler on one end and it goes straight up, supply the Hot water to all the zone. There is no electric wiring attach to that pipe, I will look closer when I can.

Name:  20141118_112354.jpg
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The blue line shows the original connection.

The Red line shows the new extension, baseboard runs along the floor.

The Orange line is the new return that connects back to the original.
 

Last edited by icpeanuts; 11-18-14 at 01:24 PM.
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Old 11-18-14, 04:25 PM
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What is that second picture supposed to be showing us?

Can you stand back and take some pictures that show us everything?
I'd like to help you get this going, but without pics that show me ALL the piping and valves around the boiler I can't... I need to describe the process to purge the air and without knowing what valves are available I can't help.
 
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Old 11-18-14, 10:39 PM
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Thanks for your info. The Picture 2 does contain a Taco Pump.

The thermostats is on the First Floor, Would adding a thermostats on the basement help with this setup? Do I need to disable the Thermostats on the First Floor?

I can not seem to upload more pictures. It keep saying upload failed when it gets to 100%

Here is a link to more photos. Thanks for your help.
https://plus.google.com/photos/10960...97092272801089
 

Last edited by icpeanuts; 11-18-14 at 11:24 PM.
  #14  
Old 11-19-14, 08:19 PM
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Anyone have a recommendation on what I should do?

Would adding a pump help to move the water?
 
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Old 11-19-14, 09:04 PM
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To bleed the system you need to boost the psi with the fill valve... But having a faulty gauge will not help you...

You need to replace that gauge so you know the psi..

Your zone mod looks OK.. FYI what is the total ft of baseboard element now on that zone???

You can get a new gauge at the home store or a plumbing supply...







Yes your bleeding is correct here but your zone valve remains closed when blleding....

 
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Old 11-19-14, 10:46 PM
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To replace the Gauge, when the power is off, just unscrew and put in the new one?

I think approximately 60 feet of baseboard Elements.

The temperature of the pipe is Not as Hot as other pipe in the same return pipe.

When I bleed the system, I use full open using the fill valve and I filled until the Shutoff valve is leaking the excess water.

"Yes your bleeding is correct here but your zone valve remains closed when bleeding"
Should I slide the handle on the Zone valve to Manual when bleeding?

The baseboard would be warmer in the first 16 feet of the baseboard, it gets cooler on the new return pipe and rest of the new baseboard.
 
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Old 11-20-14, 05:30 AM
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To replace the Gauge, when the power is off, just unscrew and put in the new one?
No you need to drain the boiler. You may be able to isolate the zones..

I think approximately 60 feet of baseboard Elements.
OK

When I bleed the system, I use full open using the fill valve and I filled until the Shutoff valve is leaking the excess water.
OK..


Should I slide the handle on the Zone valve to Manual when bleeding?
No.. Zone valves closed... Turn power off to boiler when bleeding...


Seems you may have an air issue only..

Can you verify the pump is a taco 007 here?

[ATTACH=CONFIG]42079[/ATTACH]
 
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Old 11-20-14, 10:20 AM
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The Taco pump is 007-F5

Regarding the replacement of the Gauge, physically, how would I remove the Gauge? Do I turn it counter clockwise to release it?

Thanks for the information on the Bleeding, I have been doing it while the system is on.

I am a very newbe.
 
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Old 11-20-14, 09:58 PM
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I bleed the system using your instruction, the basement baseboard still does not generate enough heat.

The pipe are warmer, but not as warm as the others, any other suggestion?
 
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Old 11-21-14, 03:18 PM
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I bleed all 3 zones. The baseboard on the extended area is not generating enough heat. The copper pipes on the other zone is much hotter.

Can I add a Thermostats on the basement outside wall, will this help with water circulation?

Can I add something on the new pipe extension that will move the water quicker?

Thanks for your help.
 
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Old 11-21-14, 05:34 PM
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Not to muddy the waters..... what happens if you turn the two zones down a few degrees..... does the one in question get hotter ?
 
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Old 11-22-14, 08:48 PM
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I tried, it is still the same.

The temperature is around 63.
 
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Old 11-23-14, 09:19 AM
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Can I add a Thermostats on the basement outside wall, will this help with water circulation?

Can I add something on the new pipe extension that will move the water quicker?
Hi Peanuts,

To directly answer these questions, no, you're 'barking up the wrong tree'.

Adding more pumps or thermostats is not going to 'fix' the issue.

To replace the Gauge, when the power is off, just unscrew and put in the new one?
Basically yes, but you need to drain the system to do so. You do NOT want to do that at this point in time, so instead, read this:

http://www.doityourself.com/forum/bo...ure-gauge.html

Before you proceed any further, you MUST know the pressure in the system.
 
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Old 11-23-14, 09:22 AM
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I think approximately 60 feet of baseboard Elements.
We want to know how much baseboard is on the zone that you are having issue with. Not 'think' or 'approximate', but get out your tape measure and tell us how much ELEMENT (not the connecting pipes) is on that zone.
 
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Old 11-23-14, 09:25 AM
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Thanks for the information on the Bleeding, I have been doing it while the system is on.
NO.

Turn the power OFF to the boiler and allow it to cool to 100F or less before bleeding.

But before going any further, you MUST know the pressure in the system, so read that thread about verifying the boiler pressure, and we can continue from there after you have a functional pressure gauge.

Your issue is 99% most likely still air in the system and this air is cutting the flow.
 
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Old 02-02-16, 10:34 AM
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I have not resolve this problem and I put it off for so long.

Can I add a hot water circulator pump such as this

Taco Hot Water Circulator Pump, 1/25 HP 008-F6 | Zoro.com

toward the end of the return to help move the water in the pipe.

The water is not moving or no pressure to move the water. The extension of the copper pipes are too long. Thanks
 
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Old 02-02-16, 12:58 PM
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You have to answer the questions asked below.. Whats the temp and psi say on the boiler gauge?

Can you take more pics of the system?

A extra pump will not do anything...

Something else is wrong...
 
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Old 02-02-16, 03:54 PM
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If zone 1 baseboards, original and new,are plumbed in series, the original zone 1 baseboards should be at nearly the same temperature as those in the basement. I don't read that anywhere. This would indicate the baseboards are not in series. Can this be the case?
 
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Old 02-05-16, 11:09 AM
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We have a 3 zone setup.
I extended zone 1 to the basement and ran baseboard along the wall.
. . .
I extended the pipe on the return of zone 1 which is the first floor.
. . .
All the other zone has adequate heat,
To clarify, All of the original Zone 1 -- minus the addition -- is heating as expected.
 
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Old 02-05-16, 01:56 PM
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First off, I admit to not having read this thread, or perhaps I did when it was new but If so I do not remember. This, however, caught my eye.

The water is not moving or no pressure to move the water.
Pressure alone will not move any water. It requires a DIFFERENCE of pressure from one end to the other for the water to flow.
 
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Old 02-12-16, 10:32 PM
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Zone 2 and 3, the temperature is hot/normal.

Zone 1, floor 1 is also ok, the problem is the extension of the baseboard in the basement, the pipes are lukewarm.

The original pipe was connected as noted in the yellow line. We cut and extend pipes and baseboard around the basement and return on the right.

Water are flowing when I bleed zone 1, everything would be HOT during the bleed, but it will cool off when I stop bleeding.

Not sure what to do.
Is there anyway to safely circulate the water in the return pipe in the basement?Name:  20141118_1953.jpg
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  #32  
Old 02-13-16, 07:13 AM
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So the zone with the hose there is the issue?

OK looks like a loop with a feed and return.. Can you take a pic or the whole boiler?

Can you show us where you added to this zone?

Draw a diagram maybe .. Anything to help us help you..
 
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Old 02-13-16, 03:36 PM
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With the extra head loss from the basement loop in series, flow is less in zone 1, that increases the temperature drop of that circuit. And I bet when you sized the radiation for the basement you used 170-180F as your design temperature.

Can you show us the supply riser where the zones branch off, we have the return with the zone valves.
 
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