Carrier (oil burner runs but no ignition

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  #41  
Old 12-26-14, 07:37 PM
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95% oil !!!! Run Forrest Run. Run far & fast.
If I were going to replace an entire system, I'd look pretty hard at geo-thermal heat pumps. The wells in your part of the country might be really expensive.

Back to your Ducane: If you can maintain a clean fire, try closing down the air just a wee bit more. A rich mixture is easier to ignite than a lean one. You have a large flame viewing door. The flame should be light yellow. Certainly not orange or dull yellow.
 
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  #42  
Old 12-27-14, 07:58 AM
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In post #19 you say the Carrier calls for 80* @ .90 GPH and your now running a .75 GPH . If the unit was set up on original installation using test equipment and you just down fire it to .75GPH with out using test equipment you now have no idea how it is performing even when the ignition problem is solved . If the nozzle is letting oil into the chamber after burner shuts down you will see a small fire , this is usually caused by air trapped behind the nozzle and will clear by cycling the burner a few times .
 
  #43  
Old 12-27-14, 09:37 AM
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We had cut the air a bit to compensate for the down fire. So what's left to adjust that will impact the ignition besides gaps and air? Does adjusting the overdraft impact ignition/fuel impingment as well or just the heat escaping up the chimney?

Furnace has run all night and day so far without shutting down. Still a bit of ignition delay sometimes like 1 or 2 secs. so I can play with gaps and air some more. I haven't quite gotten the electrodes all the way down to just a 1/16 ahead of the nozzle. So at this point do we think the transformer is still suspect or that I just suck at setting the electrode gaps/positions and therefore just get a good tech in to make all the critical settings? Especially as saves said, I down fired without checking all the performance tests. Flame looks good at this point - light yellow, maybe an occasional blue tip. Just pulled the nozzle gun and it seems basically dry. Even the air tube only has only a quarter size wet stain which is the least I have seen in a long time. When burner shuts down the firebox glows orange for 30 secs or so but I see no smoke. I'll try to catch it at ignition to see how smoky it is at start up.
 
  #44  
Old 12-27-14, 10:49 AM
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I assume the burner is a flame retention burner and therefore the end cone may need to be changed to match the .75 nozzle . The smaller the nozzle the higher the % of air past the nozzle as compared to the air around the flame. I have not worked on that burner so can not advice, your burner manual should tell you . Becketts have removable end cones to suit the range of nozzles that can be fired , Reillo has an adjustable slide that adjust the amount of air past the nozzle and around the flame , Reillo f3 fires from 0.4 to 0.75 and the slide is set to 0 for a 0.4 nozzle ,the air is then adjusted to obtain a smoke # 0 and a co2 of 12.5 and with a stack temperature of 350f the efficiency should be 86.5%, If the over fire pressure can be controlled by the draft regulator under varying flue pressures the fuel to air ratio should remain close to original settings .
 
  #45  
Old 12-27-14, 11:29 AM
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Not sure why you describe the .75 nozzle as a smaller nozzle. Physically it is the same size as the .85 nozzle the techs installed so the space between nozzle and ring is identical and requiring the same wrench size. Or is the draft or draw of air past the nozzle different due to the different flame characteristics of the .85 and .75 nozzle?

I checked the literature and .90 gph is stated as "maximum" input but no reference to anything about sizing the ring to the nozzle. That's the first I've heard of this. I didn't have very good ignition with the .85 either but then I wasn't as attentive to my gaps and air settings. I can play with that and see if any better but I was trying to reduce oil consumption as I think this furnace puts out plenty of heat for the one floor it supports. It's a Ducane burner so I can't find a replacement ring for it.
 
  #46  
Old 12-27-14, 11:59 AM
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All nozzles are physically the same size, the oriface is what changes which controls the amount of oil that flows. The .75 sprays .1 less GPH then a .85. That requires adjustments, mostly air, to set the burn correctly.
 

Last edited by tomf63; 12-27-14 at 12:15 PM.
  #47  
Old 12-27-14, 12:23 PM
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Agree. So isn't it redundant to try and set air by both adjusting the external air shutter at the burner air intake and also by altering the flame retention ring or end cone?
 
  #48  
Old 12-27-14, 12:37 PM
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The reference to a smaller nozzle relates to the GPH of oil through the nozzle . The less oil sprayed into the chamber the less oxygen (air) required to convert the oil into heat. The end cone will have a bigger outer slot for a greater % of the air for larger nozzles .Beckett has a range of nozzle sizes for each end cone such as a f3 . If you are getting oil in the air tube this indicates the oil is hitting the end cone or electrodes, or there is an oil leak were the nozzle is seated . If the nozzle is in the right relationship to the end cone and your getting oil hitting the end cone a 70 degree nozzle will help , usually done as a last resort .A good transformer will have a spark that can be dragged with a n insulated screw driver from one post almost to the other post at least 3/4 of an inch long. Caution there is potential for a nasty shock 10,000 volts.
 
  #49  
Old 12-27-14, 01:06 PM
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Try setting everything where you think it's suppose to go.Grab the assembly tube firmly and press down on the brass flats,see is the adjustments move.
 
  #50  
Old 12-27-14, 02:46 PM
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The air shutter is used to introduce enough air to burn all the oil in the firing chamber plus 35% more air than required as a safety to prevent the production of co . The end cone is used to direct some air to the center of the fire and some to the outside of the fire in the proportion required to burn as much of the oil droplets as possible. If the smoke spot is a #o the burner is considered to be burning all the oil and the burner is nearly 100% efficient. So no it is not redundant to set both the air damper (total air) and by altering the flame retention ring or cone to get the oxygen to were the most oil will be converted to heat .
 
  #51  
Old 12-27-14, 02:46 PM
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The reason there are different end cones for different firing ranges is the end cone is what provides swirl to the air to mix with the fuel. You can have the correct proportions of air & fuel but if they don't mix properly, you will have poor combustion.
Being only somewhat familiar with the Ducane burner I don't know how critical the end cone size is as it relates to firing rate.

If you are seeing any blue or sparkles in the flame tips, you probably have too much air.
 
  #52  
Old 12-27-14, 03:00 PM
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I understand since the introduction of the flame retention head by Beckett it is impossible to look at the flame and tell if it is burning efficiently even by an experienced tech as the flame is to bright for the eye to tell what is going on.
 
  #53  
Old 12-27-14, 04:13 PM
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Right so I guess three questions:

1. Does my .75 gph nozzle fall within the acceptable range of the original end cone/ring being that .90 gph is stated as the "maximum" input - Grady's not sure about Ducane and my literature doesn't say - remember the burner is 30 years old.
2. since it's igniting consistently and maybe not perfectly is it a matter of more adjustments or larger nozzle therefore bring in a good tech with the appropriate equipment.
3. get that new transformer 1st and deal with the rest after?
 

Last edited by Wayfarersun; 12-27-14 at 04:16 PM. Reason: add
  #54  
Old 12-27-14, 04:57 PM
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At least we now have it lighting consistently so you have heat. Primary objective accomplished.

I believe I'd get the transfomer, install it, & then call a tech to tweek the air/fuel.

If the new transformer gives you instantaneous ignition, ask the tech not to adjust the electrodes. I seriously doubt you will find anyone highly experienced with the Ducane burner but it doesn't hurt to mention it to the service manager.
 
  #55  
Old 12-27-14, 06:35 PM
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Yes definitely primary objective achieved. Great thanks - here goes the transformer. I'll let you know how it goes.
 
  #56  
Old 12-27-14, 07:14 PM
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If I remember right, when you go to mount the Alanson transformer on the Webster plate, you are going to have to drill a hole for the wires to go through. I think the wires come out of the Alanson on one side & the Webster on the other.
 
  #57  
Old 12-27-14, 07:43 PM
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ok thx. should be doable
 
  #58  
Old 12-28-14, 09:25 AM
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To guyold:

Try setting everything where you think it's suppose to go.Grab the assembly tube firmly and press down on the brass flats,see is the adjustments move.
Not sure what you're saying. What do you mean by:

assembly tube= air tube or nozzle gun? - are you asking me to check if either move or float meaning adjustments are constantly changing?

Flats - the flats of the transformer contacts or the electrodes' contact bands? I'm pretty sure they line up and have enough tension to maintain consistent contact.
 
  #59  
Old 12-28-14, 10:26 AM
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Assembly=gun. Sometimes the electrode points will spread when there is pressure on the brass flats.(where the transformer comes in contact with electrodes) Your good if they are tight.
 
  #60  
Old 12-28-14, 11:25 AM
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Wayfarersun,
Sometimes the clamp(s) don't hold the electrodes securely & pressure from the transformer onto the buss bars will cause the electodes to move.
 
  #61  
Old 12-28-14, 11:46 AM
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Thanks guys. I was thinking of that but I think I will specifically check it the way guyold described and look for any other play I can find. I'm pretty sure I've tightened the electrode clamp after the last adjustment but will snug it up if possible without cracking the electrodes. Wasn't sure how much pressure the electrodes could take so I was a bit shy about really tightening down hard on them.

I gotta say, Ducane makes a real sloppy gun/clamp combination when i compare it to my Beckett on the HW heater
 

Last edited by Wayfarersun; 12-28-14 at 11:49 AM. Reason: add
  #62  
Old 12-28-14, 12:02 PM
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Ducane burners were what I refer to as "bird burners". Cheep, Cheep, Cheep.
 
  #63  
Old 12-28-14, 01:14 PM
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LOL - I agree. Cheaply made and nothing special designed into it to make it service friendly. I can't believe Carrier incorporated such a substandard product into there overall heating/cooling system. When I look at other older products online they seem evolved and sophisticated while this Ducane seems so primitive.
 
  #64  
Old 12-28-14, 04:51 PM
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You wouldn't believe the number of brand names I've seen on that exact same furnace. Probably a dozen or more. For a long time Ducane made furnaces for anybody who wanted an oil furnace line. If you wanted 1000 furnaces with Wayfarersun Furnace Company on them, Ducane would hook you up. For a few dollars more, they'd paint them whatever color you wanted. I don't know that I've ever seen one with the Ducane brand on it.
 
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Old 12-28-14, 06:29 PM
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its amazing then that I can't get parts for the burner like a flame retention ring. You would think it would fall under the universal fit/one size fits all category.
 
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Old 12-29-14, 01:47 AM
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I don't know what the Ducane parts look like so not sure if it has same type of setup.

On my old Beckett I was getting intermittent ignition problems. Went through many things you listed also. Pulled electrode/nozzle assembly many times and found wet electrodes.

End result- with all the times taking the parts out my lock screw had come loose and the "Z" setting was off by about 1/4"+. That is how far the nozzle and electrodes sit in relation to the end of the burner tube with the swirl. Not being right totally threw off the mixture. I fixed that to where it should be and no more issues.

I had a Weil Mclain with swing open door so it was easier to check that. You might need to pull the head to check that (and also clean any carbon buildup from the end).

I also installed a new webster cleancut pump that had the oil solenoid which factory didn't. I then replaced the honeywell controller to the model that has pre and post purge. I liked the fact that I got a 15+ second forced draft / airflow before the oil started pumping into chamber and then had time to clear out the fumes and cool down a bit after.

Can the furnace be changed to put a Beckett or other head in it? With all the people switching to gas, craigslist has many choices on boilers/furnaces/heads etc.
 
  #67  
Old 12-29-14, 08:07 AM
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Hi, sequoiasoon,

Thanks for the info. I replaced my Webster with another Webster pump 2 years ago and didn't realize they made one with a solenoid - which I wanted to get but wasn't sure how to wire. I think it is a simple as connecting to the cad cell sensor terminals? Anyway the newer Webster was suppose to have an improved fuel cutoff if you believe the marketing and the footprint was the same . For some reason I thought the ports on the Suntec w/solenoid were positioned slightly different and the overall pump measurements were different than Web so I kept things simple and replaced with another Webster. I also installed a Delaevan Protek valve that acts somewhat as a solenoid as well...if you believe it though not currently installed until I achieve my final settings.

I've asked if the Ducane can be replaced by a Beckett and I think I've gotten both yes and no answers, however I just checked one of the supply houses and it recommends specific Beckett part numbers to replace my DMR-10A. I'll be following up with that in case the burner fails so I have the option of replace the whole system or just the burner.

Right now it may be firing best it has in a long time, so I'm going to take all the advice thus far and eliminate any possibility of looseness, find my best settings and maybe throw in a new transformer. Then take it from there with a tech to check the combustion.
 
  #68  
Old 12-29-14, 09:07 AM
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I think it is a simple as connecting to the cad cell sensor terminals?
No, not that simple.

The newer oil burner primary controls have an output for the oil solenoid valve. These controls start the motor first, allowing the blower to come up to speed before opening the oil valve. They also close the valve first at shutdown, and delay turning the blower off in order to clear the boiler of flue gases.

One could wire the valve directly to the AC for the burner so it opens immediately at start and closes immediately at shutdown.

Suntec has a 'timer' that can be wired in to provide some of the function of the oil primary... I don't know if Webster has such available.

Not Webster related, but some insight here:

http://inspectapedia.com/heat/Oil_Quick_Stop_Valves.php

There are also solenoid valves that are external to the pump and install in the nozzle line, such as:

http://www.patriot-supply.com/produc...BECKETT_21789U
 
  #69  
Old 12-29-14, 09:44 AM
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Suntec makes Model # A2VA-3006 with two lead solenoid which says to install in parallel with burner motor (I think what NJ is saying). Sounds like this is the more simplified approach which can use the traditional primary control as opposed to the more complete cut off approach using the pre/post purge capabilities of the more sophisticated controls of today. I think this is why I avoided the upgrades to keep it simple. I was too lazy , impatient to figure it all out. I think Webster sells a separate solenoid that may mount to my Web pump but even then I wasn't sure.

Wiring the Oil Shut-off or Oil Delay Valve

Wiring the oil delay solenoid: for most models, the solenoid valve's electrical wires are connected to the oil burner "run" circuit inside the primary control by connecting the solenoid control circuit wires to the oil burner motor leads - in this case, the nearby cad cell relay
- from your link below - I guess this is why I said cad cell relay.
 

Last edited by Wayfarersun; 12-29-14 at 09:46 AM. Reason: add
  #70  
Old 12-29-14, 10:30 AM
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I think what they are calling the 'cad cell relay' is what I'm calling the 'oil burner primary control'...

So yes, in that case, what you initially said is basically correct. The solenoid gets wired to the O/B primary control, aka 'cad cell relay'.
 
  #71  
Old 12-29-14, 02:11 PM
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Well Suntec literature says to run in parallel with burner motor like you had implied?. So would it make any difference?. I know my cad cell sensor is hooked up alone to the F terminals and simple to identify. I guess I could trace the motor wires easily enough.
 
  #72  
Old 12-29-14, 02:41 PM
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The delayed oil solenoids are wired to orange & white on a basic 3 wire primary control (R8184 or similar). In the case of the Suntec, the delay (3-5 seconds) is built into the cord.

With the Pro Tek valve, you have to increase the pump pressure, if I recall correctly.
 
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Old 12-29-14, 04:55 PM
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Ok . Thanks.

According to Delavan's literature and instructions there is no drop in pressure and therefore no need to increase pump pressure for nozzles under or up to 2 GPH. Have you had any experience to the contrary? Have you had any experience good or bad with this nozzle?
 
  #74  
Old 12-29-14, 05:11 PM
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No first hand experience. I thought I had remembered reading something, sometime about having to increase the pump pressure. It may have been when they were first introduced or maybe for the >2gph.
 
  #75  
Old 12-29-14, 11:37 PM
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I moved from that house 2.5 years ago so no chance on double checking. I thought it was a webster pump BUT looking at the images on line I think it was the suntec with the solenoid. It was 2 wires and had the built in delay on it. I remember the shop saying I didn't need to change the primary as the solenoid had the delay built in.

I did change the primary as I wanted the post purge. The primary (honeywell 7184) had the spot for the solenoid so I hooked it up there. I think the primary had like a 15 second delay and the built in to cord added like 4 seconds. It also then had the post purge you could set (mine was 2 minutes).

I had a problem for a while with poor draft and boiler not firing (for indirect water heater) due to not mixing correctly during the warmer months as the central air would pull air down through the chimney. You could here the whistling and feel it pulling from under basement door.

Doing the solenoid, primary, and then the field oil vent damper solved that problem. I also added 2 feet to chimney as it was just above ridge line prior and would catch down drafts when wind blew from northeast. Must have been an issue at some point and prior owner just never repaired. It was the lowest one in neighbor hood and just appeared it was missing a couple rows of brick (but crown was new masonry).
 
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Old 12-30-14, 02:50 PM
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Thanks SS,

I wish I had talked to you, Grady & NJT sooner. I would have sprang for a new primary and pump with solenoid. Since my new Webster is only 2 years old, I'll see if I can make do with it and maybe the new transformer. Right now, just improving/playing with my gaps and air seems to be getting decent ignition.

Although I still get some 1or 1.5 secs delay occasionally and the small explosion into flame. My Beckett never does that. It's just a mild mannered burn from the moment the burner comes on. It's also a 1 GPH nozzle.

I think purging a quart of oil out of the line did wonders for making the pump run quietly and smooth and the burner pretty much just hums now after ignition. Just need to get the ignition right.
 
  #77  
Old 01-09-15, 09:50 AM
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The Allanson 421-430 transformer came in last night and I want to hook it up this weekend. It has two black leads coming out of the bottom. I assume due to alternating current the two leads are interchangeable with respect to the terminal connects?

Do the leads connect at the primary control? Hopefully its easy to trace the current transformer leads.

Happy New Year
Mike a.k.a Wayfarersun
 
  #78  
Old 01-09-15, 12:33 PM
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Connect one wire to the neutral (white) and the other wire to the Red wire which will have the hot wire to motor also. The three wires coming out of the primary safety control same as it is wired to original transformer.
 
  #79  
Old 01-09-15, 12:49 PM
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Thanks! Will let us know if ignition improves
 
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Old 01-09-15, 12:56 PM
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and the other wire to the Red wire which will have the hot wire to motor also.
How do you know it's a 'red wire' saves?

Wayf, you'll see where it needs to connect.
 
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