Tying zone valves together.

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Old 01-07-15, 12:35 PM
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Tying zone valves together.

Hi guys, I searched around the forum but wasn't able to find the answer to my question so I am hoping you can help. To make a long story short, I have a cape cod home, 3 zones (1 on each level) and 3 TACO zone valves. I would like to eliminate the thermostat on the 2nd floor and have the main floor thermostat control the 2nd floor and main floor valves. I have attached a picture of what I currently have. I am guessing I need to remove the white thermostat wire from the 2nd floor valve and ..... possibly piggy back it off the first floor? I don't want to break anything or overload anything so I figured I would check with you guys.
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Let me know if you need more information, for this small request I didn't think I would have to go into much detail.

Thanks,
Mike
 
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Old 01-07-15, 12:52 PM
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Taco lists .9A as the current consumption for a zone valve. That means two would be 1.8A.
You need to check the maximum capacity of your thermostat.

You could post the make and model of the t'stat and we could check on it.
 
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Old 01-07-15, 12:53 PM
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Hi Mike,

I think we did cover this recently for another poster... let me look tonight and see if I can find.
 
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Old 01-07-15, 04:20 PM
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PJ the tstat is a RiteTemp 8030C and the maximum amperage is 1.0.

Thanks for the quick reply.
 
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Old 01-07-15, 04:53 PM
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I think this is the image from that earlier thread I mentioned:



Before doing this, I need to look at it again because as I recall there may have been an issue with it.
 
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Old 01-09-15, 03:37 PM
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Sorry for the delay. So does that mean (since I have 3 valves right now) that it would look like this? Don't mind my chicken scratch

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Old 01-09-15, 03:51 PM
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No... you need a wire on zone 2 (middle) terminal 1 ...

Gimmee a minute to redraw.
 
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Old 01-09-15, 04:29 PM
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Still thinking... I have a bad feeling about this...
 
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Old 01-09-15, 04:42 PM
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First, for it to work at all, you can't just disconnect the thermostat if that's what the X through it means. You would have to connect the wires together, or simply leave that thermostat turned up all the way, all the time.

BUT, I realized what the bad feeling was for... because there's a potential problem with your diagram which existed in the ORIGINAL diagram.

Read this thread in it's entirety:

http://www.doityourself.com/forum/bo...wo-valves.html

The problem shows it's fangs with the first thermostat opens after a heat call.

If the wires are not connected such that the zone valve transformer and the transformer in the aquastat are 'phased' correctly, there will be current flow in the circuit between the two transformers.

That was the reason that the wire to the aquastat on the first zone valve was moved from terminal 2 over to terminal 3.

Your proposed wiring puts that wire BACK on terminal 2 ...

Your diagram will only work if by LUCK alone you got the right aquastat wires connected to the right zone valve wires.

I know it's confusing... but read that thread and you should get it.
 
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Old 01-10-15, 07:43 AM
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Thanks Trooper, I will check out that thread. My original drawing, which looked like yours except for the red line, was actually something that TACO had sent me some time ago. I found it buried in some paperwork, however, they didn't address my direct question of having 3 zones they just sent me that picture of having 2 zones. Do you think I should try to reach out to them again or is it something we can figure out?
 
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Old 01-10-15, 09:26 AM
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something that TACO had sent me some time ago
Yes... that's where the original idea came from and when Gwest tried it discovered a flaw... the aquastat relay would 'pump' on and off, which we worked through in the thread I linked to.

That's when the wire was moved from 2 to 3.

The flaw is that you have a 50/50 chance of getting it right... because whether it works or not depends on that 'phasing' thing that is discussed in that thread.

If you get it WRONG, what will happen is that after a heat call on the 'linked' zones, the aquastat control will 'pump' on and off because there is current flow between the two transformers, the one on the wall, and the one in the aquastat.

If you get it RIGHT, it will work properly.

Do you think I should try to reach out to them again or is it something we can figure out?
I doubt it will do any good, but you could try. You'll have to get a tech that understands exactly what goes on when multiple transformers are involved, and that the 'phasing' of the transformers has an effect on the circuit.

It will work if you roll sevens, it won't work if you snake eye.

If you hook it up and try it, and the aquastat relay 'pumps' when the linked zone heat call ENDS, simply reverse the wires at the aquastat T T input and it should work properly.

The only problem with doing this is for future persons who don't understand what was done, and why, or yourself if you have the same memory flaws that many of us have.
 
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Old 01-11-15, 09:11 PM
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Trpop, This is just a thought. What do you think.

From the transformer [let's call it R (hot)] go to the t-stat on z1

then [from the other side of thermostat] to Term1 on ZV1.

From Term2 on ZV1 back to [ let's call it C (common)] trans.,

also Term2 on ZV1 to Term2 on second ZV.

Now the first ZV is connected to the TSTAT that he wants to use

and the 2nd Term. on ZV's 1 & 2 are tied together. [to 24VAC Common]

Then tie Term.3 on ZV1 to Term 1 on ZV2.

now when Tstat 1 calls for heat Term's 1 &2 on ZV1 will open [the valve] and make the end switch and send power to Term1 and 2 on ZV2 which will make that end switch.

Then from Term's 2 & 3 on ZV2 go to TT on boiler control.

Zone valve 3 wired the regular way. Trans goes to Tstat then to 1 & 2 and then 2 & 3 go to TT on boiler. That is all seperately wiring though. No jumping from term to term like the electricians like to do do to save wire. That way Z3 runs independent of the the other two.

I'm on a tablet and can't figure out how to draw & post but if you draw it Troop you'll be able to see what you think.

Simply when ZV1 opens it makes 2 & 3 which sends power to Term on Z2 which will make that end switch to send power to TT on boiler.

Sorry for the length but it's midnight and just saw it and mind started going.

Good Luck,
 

Last edited by NJT; 01-12-15 at 08:28 AM.
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Old 01-12-15, 08:23 AM
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Hey Skip, I did draw that out and it won't work... that is, if I drew it to your specs, which I think I did.

When ZV2 endswitch makes, all it will do is connect terminals 1 and 2 of ZV2 together...

You've got ZV1-2 and ZV2-2 wired together.

And ZV1-3 wired to ZV2-1.

When ZV1-2 and ZV1-3 'make', ZV2-1 and ZV2-2 would be the same point, electrically...
 
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Old 01-12-15, 04:12 PM
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So.. I did get a response from a tech @ TACO. I told him my current setup was identical to their "Basic Wiring Diagram Intermittent Operating Pump" instructions. It looks like he came back with what I had drawn earlier... also, Trooper, in response to one of your other posts since I can't figure out how to quote you, the "X" I drew through the thermostat signified me tieing those wires together. Oh and one other thing. I don't mind trying this out so long as it's not going to damage anything. If it won't burn out any motors or overload anything I will gladly roll the dice.



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Old 01-12-15, 04:20 PM
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It looks like he came back with what I had drawn earlier
Yes he did, and I sorta thought that he would... I'm not sure why they don't know that there is a crap shoot with this design...

Here's the thing though, it's been PROVEN that there's a 50/50 chance of this working correctly. Unfortunately the original poster from that other thread removed his graphics so we can't see the whole thing.

Like I said, it WILL work if you happen to get it right by accident.

If the aquastat on the boiler 'cycles' after the tied together zones END the heat call... (it will work when calling, and while calling... the problem will show up the first time the heat call on those zones ENDS) ... then simply reverse the connections at the boiler aquastat thermostat connections and it should work properly.

Was it an email that you got from Taco?

Don't post it here, but would you have objection to passing that email to me ? I would like to discuss this with them. Let me know and I'll send you a private message.
 
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Old 01-12-15, 05:02 PM
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This may be a terminology thing but I'm not sure what the aquastat on the boiler is (sorry, I'm a car guy). Is that just the device that knows the temp of the water in the boiler?

It was an email from TACO support, yes. I have no problems sharing it with you.
 
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Old 01-12-15, 05:18 PM
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I'm not sure what the aquastat on the boiler is (sorry, I'm a car guy). Is that just the device that knows the temp of the water in the boiler?
Water temp is one of the functions.

It also runs the circulator pump.

What make/model is the boiler? What aquastat is installed?
 
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Old 01-12-15, 06:52 PM
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We refer to it as the relic. It's original to the house 1947. I can't find any badges on it but see the word York on some of the other components. I would be happy to donate it to the Smithsonian. The circulator pump wiring goes to a black box mounted remotely about 8 feet away. I'll snap a few pics... (by the way it says you aren't accepting Private Messages)
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Old 01-12-15, 07:02 PM
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OK... well, that might change things then, or, it might not.

To what control are the wires from the zone valves going to?

Yeah, I had to turn off PM's to keep from getting hammered... I'm going to send you one.
 
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Old 01-12-15, 08:01 PM
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They go that black box labeled YORK HEAT. You can kind of see some of the wires to the right in the photo.
 
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Old 01-13-15, 05:16 AM
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Can you slide cover off and let's see what's inside?

Assuming it's a transformer and a relay.
 
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Old 01-13-15, 04:15 PM
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Absolutely..

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The wires on the right are 2 of the 3 thermostats. The 3rd zone thermostat wires terminate over by the boiler.
 
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Old 01-13-15, 04:53 PM
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Eggzackly what I expected to see... and nothing really changes...

EXCEPT, now you've got me a bit confused by saying:

The wires on the right are 2 of the 3 thermostats.
Because the THERMOSTATS should be going to the ZONE VALVES, and the wires from 2 and 3 on the zone valves should be going to the B and W terminals on that relay box.

The 3rd zone thermostat wires terminate over by the boiler.
That doesn't make sense... WHERE "over by the boiler" ?

They should terminate at the same place.

Does your boiler stay hot all the time? and only the pump starts / stops when the zones call for heat?
 
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Old 01-13-15, 07:16 PM
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That's my bad for not elaborating. Those 2 thermostats simply connect to other wires that extend over to the zone valves. The third thermostat (wires) were brought directly to the zone valve area.

The blue and white wires in that box extend over to the zone valves where the other thermostats and wiring are connected via wire caps.

And no. It doesn't stay hot. It cycles, like a normal boiler.
 
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Old 01-13-15, 08:28 PM
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OK, so the blue and whites are coming from 2 and 3 on the zone valves then?

I would say to go ahead and try it...

Understand that when the linked together zones STOP calling for heat is when the problem, if you've got the wires backwards, will show up, so that's what you've got to test.

Set the linked zones to call for heat, give time for BOTH zone valves to open (maybe 4 minutes or so) and then turn the thermostat back down. Give time for BOTH zone valves to close.

If the zone continues to call for heat, or turns on and off a few times, reverse the blue and white wires and that should fix the problem.
 
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Old 01-14-15, 02:42 PM
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Ok. I will try it either tonight or tomorrow and let you know how I make out. Thanks for the help!
 
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Old 01-14-15, 02:49 PM
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Suggestion...

Leave the original wiring in place and test with clip leads or jumpers first... just in case! That way you can easily go back.
 
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Old 01-17-15, 04:11 PM
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Ok. So I made the adjustments and documented the changes I made. It was easy enough to where I can revert back in a few minutes. The change worked, however, once the temp came up and thermostat turned off, the relay clicks every 30 seconds or so turning the circulator pump on, then off, then on then off. So it sounds like it's doing exactly what you said Trooper. So when you say
If the aquastat on the boiler 'cycles' after the tied together zones END the heat call... (it will work when calling, and while calling... the problem will show up the first time the heat call on those zones ENDS) ... then simply reverse the connections at the boiler aquastat thermostat connections and it should work properly.
which connections would those be?
 
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Old 01-17-15, 04:32 PM
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Reversing the White and Blue wires here, REGARDLESS of the fact that they don't match the lettering on the board, will correct the problem.

I haven't had a chance to collect my thoughts for my "Love Note To Taco" yet.
 
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Old 01-17-15, 04:41 PM
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Haha nice. I will reverse those and report back. Thanks for the quick reply on a Saturday night.
 
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Old 01-17-15, 04:53 PM
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Ok. Reversing did the trick. Circulator pump hasn't kicked on. Should I test it and call for heat again or are you confident that there won't be any issues next time it calls for heat (which will most likely be tomorrow AM or middle of the night)?
 
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Old 01-17-15, 04:56 PM
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Confident.

But there's no reason that you shouldn't reassure yourself!
 
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Old 01-17-15, 05:08 PM
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Confident.

But there's no reason that you shouldn't reassure yourself!
If you're confident, I'm confident. You've been right all along this far. I'll let it ride
 
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