DHW overheating, ER-2 message from Amtrol


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Old 01-07-15, 10:27 PM
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DHW overheating, ER-2 message from Amtrol

Hello, first off I'd like to thank everyone that provides such helpful info on these and other forums.

My situation:
I just bought my first house about a month ago. I have no previous HVAC experience or knowledge, everything I do know I have learned in the last month out of necessity from research on forums like this, so please excuse my lack of experience and feel free to correct my terminology/understanding of things. Anyway, here's what's going on...

Upon walking into my newly purchased house in early December I discovered it was a balmy 40 something degrees. Checked both of the boiler shutoff switches and they were on, but the heat wasn't working. After paying a tech $112/hr for 3 hours to come fix frozen pipes etc, I decided I needed to learn some of this stuff for myself. He got the heat working and it works great, the only problem I'm still having is with the DHW. It's extremely hot.

Here's my setup:
Slant/Fin Liberty II oil burning furnace/boiler (whatever you call it)
Amtrol Boilermate water heater/tank
The furnace runs 3 zones plus a 4th for the hot water, using Taco 007-F5 circulators on the return side (we're in a single story house w/basement).

When I got the house, the thermostat for the Amtrol was pulled out and sitting on the floor with a bunch of wires running to/from it. The thermostat did not appear to have power and nothing was on the display. After a lot of research into wiring diagrams, I figured out that someone appeared to have wired it to bypass the thermostat completely. Our boiler would run way more frequently than it should and we went through a quarter of a tank of oil in like a week. I re-wired it but the thermostat would never display anything even when power was applied. I decided it was fried (probably why they bypassed it), and replaced it.

New thermostat is working fine, but apparently that wasn't the only problem. We now go through much less oil, but the DHW is still way too hot, and as expected the Amtrol is giving me the ER-2 code for "too hot". If we run the hot water enough it will stop, but as soon as the heating zones run for a while it overheats again.

I've checked voltage to it's circulator pump (Taco 007-F5) and it's not getting any voltage unless it's calling for hot water, so I don't think I wired anything wrong. After much more research, I've decided I think I know what the problem is - all 3 of the heating zones have a Taco Flowchek valve up top, but the one for the Amtrol doesn't seem to have one at all. It's circulator doesn't have the -IFC extension on the model number, so I don't believe there's anything in there to stop gravity/backflow heating when other zones are running heat. This seems to be confirmed by the fact that the pipes running to/from it's coil are extremely hot long after it's called for heat (which it rarely has to do since it seems to be getting "phantom heat" from the other zones which are running quite often since it's -7F here right now).

Anyway, to my final question - do you guys/gals think my diagnosis is correct or am I missing something?

A flowchek valve would be cheap but I can't do plumbing myself and don't want to pay someone. Just a few days ago I ran into a post from NJTrooper with a brilliant idea that I didn't think of, why not just replace it's circulator with one that has an integrated flowchek? But in that same post he told that person it wouldn't help them because their furnace had an internal circulator that would push or pull the valve open or something like that. So before buying a new circulator and figuring out if it's even possible for me to install it, I just wanted to confirm for sure that it would work in my situation.

Thanks again to anyone that can help, and esp. to NJTrooper for already helping me learn a lot of this stuff!

Here's some pics of my setup: (and yes, I see there may be a problem with that expansion tank due to the leakage marks - but I haven't seen it leak anything since I've been here and my pressure never runs much over 15psi even when the furnace is really active - anyway, that's another problem for another day and I don't want to make this post so long everyone skips right over it)

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Thanks again to everyone!
 
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Old 01-08-15, 05:36 AM
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isolate off the DHW tank during a heat call.
See if it continues to overheat.

What type of heat emitters do you use? Copper finned ?

Really sounds like migration is causing this overheating situation.
Or the DHW circ is miswired and runs when there is a heat call as well.
Is there a zone control panel such as a Taco SR50x ?

An IFC circ would prevent unintended flow thru that zone.

As usual, the expansion tank is not in the correct spot.
Someday the old "norm" of putting the circs on the return manifold will die out with the old plumbers,,, I HOPE
 
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Old 01-08-15, 08:12 AM
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Thanks for the reply!

Sorry I'm not sure what exactly you mean by isolate off the DHW tank or how I would do that. I'm very new at this. But I have checked the voltage at the DHW circulator when it's not calling for heat (I think one or more of the other zones was at that time) and there was no voltage to it and it did not appear to be running.

As far as heat emitters, the fins do not appear to be copper, what they are I'm not sure. Aluminum or something maybe?

Yes, I have a Taco SR503 zone control. Honeywell L8148a aquastat, wired to the Amtrol per their own published wiring diagram specifically for that aquastat - so I don't think it's a wiring mistake but it could be and I'm not sure how to further test.

Great to know the IFC circ should work! I've read it's a fairly easy job, hopefully it's something I can manage to pull off. Will have to start looking into how to do it.
 
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Old 01-08-15, 09:15 AM
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why not just replace it's circulator with one that has an integrated flowchek? But in that same post he told that person it wouldn't help them because their furnace had an internal circulator that would push or pull the valve open or something like that
I sorta remember that... that caution wouldn't apply to your system. They had a boiler with an internal circulator that would have affected the check valve as I recall.

I see there may be a problem with that expansion tank due to the leakage marks - but I haven't seen it leak anything since I've been here and my pressure never runs much over 15psi even when the furnace is really active
That is most likely not a problem with the tank itself, but rather the automatic air vent that is on top of the 'air scoop' that the tank is screwed into.

That vent either is or was leaking and running down from above.

I've read it's a fairly easy job, hopefully it's something I can manage to pull off. Will have to start looking into how to do it.
And made immensely easier by the fact that the installers opted for shutoff isolation valves above and below the circulator pumps.
 
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Old 01-08-15, 09:08 PM
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Awesome, thanks for the confirmation Trooper! I assumed mine probably didn't have an internal circulator since each zone had it's own, but just wanted to make sure before I spent all the money and time replacing something that wouldn't fix the problem.

Good to know about the expansion tank as well. The furnace tech said it was waterlogged and needed replaced, but giving it a little shake it didn't feel like it was full of water to me. I'm not sure what would have caused the air vent to leak water for so long but I've never seen it leak at all since I've been here.

Thanks again to both of you (and others!), this new house is really draining my funds but all the info I've been able to get from here is really going to help save me a lot of money
 
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Old 01-09-15, 06:19 AM
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Good to know about the expansion tank as well. The furnace tech said it was waterlogged and needed replaced, but giving it a little shake it didn't feel like it was full of water to me. I'm not sure what would have caused the air vent to leak water for so long but I've never seen it leak at all since I've been here.
The tank may in fact be waterlogged, and if it is you can count on your pressure relief valve to be opening up and spewing at some point.

You can't tell if it's waterlogged by giving it a little shake...

You're going to need to know this information sooner or later... read:
http://www.doityourself.com/forum/bo...sion-tank.html

When those air valves leak, and the system is hot, the water often will evaporate before it is seen, leaving behind a mineral deposit. Eventually this mineral deposit can plug the leak to the point where you never see any water. That valve needs to be replaced eventually.
 
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Old 01-09-15, 06:32 PM
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I had the same ER2 code one time on an Amtrol tank. It turned out the problem was the temperature sensor not being fully inserted into the tank.

I gently pushed the sensor up further into the tank (on my Amtrol, the sensor was inserted from the bottom of the tank upwards) until I felt it sort of "top out" and then I backed it off about 1/2". Never had a problem with overheating again.
 
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Old 01-09-15, 10:06 PM
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Rockledge - I think the fact that mine is getting heat running to it almost all the time, even when it's not calling for heat and it's circ pump isn't operating would rule out that being my problem (maybe I'm wrong?), but I'll give it a check!

Trooper - I have already run into that nice write up you did and it's next on my list of things to do, for sure. So is replacing that air valve something I could do w/out draining the system? I would assume probably not

Alright one more stupid question here,
I watched Taco's video on replacing the circulator and it does look quite easy, just one thing - with the new circ installed and not full of water, wouldn't I be introducing a fair amount of air into my system? Is this acceptable and not a problem, or do I need to fill the new one with water or something before I connect it all the way?
 
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Old 01-10-15, 10:15 AM
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is replacing that air valve something I could do w/out draining the system? I would assume probably not
If it's accessible enough (looks kinda tight to me!) and you can work fast, you can do the change without actually 'draining', but you MUST drop the pressure to zero in the system (and let it cool to 100F or less!). You will want to cover anything below the area with plastic sheet if there's anything (like boiler controls) that will be damaged if water gets on them.

You would have to have the new vent in your hand and ready to screw in place.
Best to have a helper ready to hand you the new valve...

Basically, drop pressure to zero in system, loosen old vent... have new vent at hand... unscrew old vent and have thumb ready to put over hole. Water WILL come out! (wear a raincoat).

Remove finger from the dike and quickly screw in new valve.

And, by the way, this would be the time to also charge the expansion tank, or change it out if it's bad, since you'll have the system pressured down anyway.

If you DO have to change the tank out, this would be the time to add the optional service valves as well.

with the new circ installed and not full of water, wouldn't I be introducing a fair amount of air into my system?
Yes... some air is going to get in there no matter what. There really isn't much you'll be able to do about that...

Since your pumps are pumping DOWN into the return manifold, and the internal check valve is on the outlet (bottom), you could actually fill the pump with water in order to minimize the air that gets into the system.

But this is the reason that the auto vent should be changed, because it's job is to remove that air, which it will do as the system circulates.
 
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Old 01-11-15, 06:42 AM
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Excellent, thanks for all the info!
 
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Old 01-16-15, 12:22 AM
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Got the part in the mail (Taco circulator), plan to install it this weekend. Just one more quick question before I dive in:

Obviously I will want to turn off the power to the boiler so I don't electrocute myself while wiring, and I imagine it would be a good idea to let the temp of the water drop to a safe level to avoid scalding myself, but what about the pressure in the system? Do I need to let it drop below a certain level or are those shutoff valves on each side of the circ trustworthy enough to hold it back? I can't imagine the system pressure will be more than 10psi or so by the time I get to work, just want to make sure that's ok and I don't need to let the pressure go down any further. It's very cold lately here in Maine, and I can't afford to have the heat off too long...

Also, Trooper -

Since your pumps are pumping DOWN into the return manifold, and the internal check valve is on the outlet (bottom), you could actually fill the pump with water in order to minimize the air that gets into the system.
Doesn't the internal flow-check only prevent flow in the reverse direction? So if my circulators are pumping downward, wouldn't it allow water to pour right through it instead of filling it up, only preventing flow in the reverse direction, upward? Or am I misunderstanding how these things work? Do they prevent flow in ANY direction except when the pump is running?
Not that it matters much, I can always connect the bottom half and then fill it with water before connecting the top part (I think?), I just want to make sure I understand these things as best I can
 
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Old 01-16-15, 12:31 AM
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those ball valves should definetely hold back the system pressure.
Let it cool a bit, as there will be water coming from the circulator body.

When you install the new circ, tighten the bottom flanges up snugly (do not over tighten, I have seen pump flanges snapped off). With the top flange bolts run close, slowly open the bottom valve a crack. You basically going to fill the pump body up. Since there is a check valve in the pump you will have to do the same with the top valve.

You are gonna get a bit wet doing this, but once you understand what I am getting at you can do it with out spilling a drop.

Once the pump body is full is full, snug down the top flange bolts and then open up the top valve slowly and check for leaks. Tighten as needed, but don't crank on them. Just as tight as needed.
Fire everything back up, make a dhw call and check for leaks again once the water temp is up to high limit.
 
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Old 01-16-15, 12:41 AM
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Thanks for the tip TOH! I must not understand correctly how these flowcheck things work, it seems like the whole point of it would be to NOT let water flow upwards if I opened that bottom valve. So kind of like I asked Trooper above, does the internal flowcheck prevent flow in both directions unless the circulator pump is running? That would seem to make more sense considering the things you guys are suggesting...
 
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Old 01-16-15, 05:33 AM
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As I (tried) to state.
the check valve will prevent the pump body from filling.
Therefore open the top valve a wee bit to fill the pump body, while still having the upper flange loose enough to allow air to pass
 
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Old 01-16-15, 05:58 AM
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The check valves in those pumps is a spring loaded type. It shouldn't open under the weight of the water in the pump cavity, at least I doubt it will. I'm sure that it takes a bit more pressure than a few ounces of water to open it, but I've never tried it. I believe it will only open when the pump runs, AFAIK. Let me know if I'm wrong about that... when you get the pump, fill it up and see what happens.
 
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Old 01-17-15, 08:57 PM
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NJ you were correct, I was able to fill the pump up without water coming out the bottom. The job was easy and appears to have fixed the problem! How nice it will be not having to hear that annoying beeping almost constantly, whew!

I believe you are also right about that air valve, I was watching the system very closely after replacing the pump and turning it back on, and I could see a tiny bit of water bubbling out of it along with the air that was being released... As far as the expansion tank, I know you said the "shake test" wouldn't really tell me anything, and maybe the "knock on it" test doesn't either, but it does make more of a solid sound when I knock on the bottom part of it, and a more "empty" sound at the top, as if water was in the bottom instead of air. I understand this may by my imagination and mean nothing at all, so I will have to follow your instructions and do a proper test to find out for sure. But since the system is working and providing heat, I may try and wait till the off season instead of risking messing something up and having to call an emergency tech again, I just can't afford that... I'm sure it's easy enough for you guys with the knowledge and experience you have, but I don't even really get how to bleed air out of the system properly and turning the boiler off long enough for the pressure to drop that low, it could get cold in here pretty quickly in a Maine winter!

Thanks again to all and I'm sure you'll see me around with more questions soon enough
 
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Old 02-03-15, 09:29 AM
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Well, I thought this problem was solved, but I seem to have just fixed one thing to uncover other problems... Anyway we're back to the original topic of DHW problems.

The new IFC circulator is working great and I no longer feel hot pipes to/from the Amtrol when I shouldn't. I set the temp on it, it gets heat when it calls for it, and stops when it's satisfied just as it should.

The problem is, now I don't ever seem to have enough hot water. I even bumped up the temp to 130, figuring I was just used to having 160 degree DHW before, so the fact that I was mixing in more cold with it to make it tolerable, it kinda made the 41gallon tank "go further". But this can't be right. This morning I checked the tank, the display read 130 and it was satisfied, not calling for heat. Water started out nice and hot, but before the bath tub was even half full it was running completely cold. No hot water whatsoever. Other days it will say it's satisfied but the water will run luke-warm to semi-hot at best and stay this way no matter how long I run it.

So I figured the temperature sensor must be bad (I hadn't replaced it with the new one that came with the Amtrol thermostat when I replaced it, figuring the old might be alright still). That was about a week ago and even with a new thermostat and temperature sensor I am still having these problems. And yes, I made sure it was fully inserted into the tank as far as it would go.

I'm at a loss here, what would be the next thing to check? Could it really be a bad brand new temperature sensor? Or sediment or something in the tank causing only part of the water to be anywhere near hot enough? Just thinking out loud here, I really have no idea what else to look at. Any ideas?
 
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Old 02-03-15, 10:13 AM
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Darn... I thought no news was good news...

I looked back at the pics to see if you might have a 'tempering valve', but the pics didn't show one.

Where the hot comes out of the tank, does it go to a valve with 3 ports on it, and a knob ?
 
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Old 02-03-15, 08:49 PM
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Nope, the hot water that comes out of the tank goes directly to a multi-splitter device (dunno what that's called) that feeds (through pex lines) to all our DHW using devices in the house.

I've read about tempering valves but am 90% sure my system doesn't have or need one. (why it doesn't need one I cannot remember at this point but I thought they were only used in other types of systems?)
 
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Old 02-04-15, 05:21 AM
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The sensor may be too far up the tube which limits the volume of hot water in the tank. The longer the pump runs to reach the Amtrol setting the more hot water you will have , the temperature of the DHW will also tend to approach the boiler water temperature. To get more volume of DHW stored in the tank lower the boiler water temperature going through the Amtrol coil which also slows the recovery time so there is a trade off. A mixing valve will give you more volume as it allows the tank water to be at a higher temperature which is then mixed with cold water as you are using the hot.
 
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Old 02-04-15, 06:51 AM
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Interesting how it went from an "overheat" condition to not making not hot water.

I thinks saves suggestion regarding repositioning the temp sensor location is certainly worth a try, it's easy enough to do.

Personally, if I were going to go through the process of adding a mixing valve, then I would consider installing a new indirect hot water heater while you are at it. I don't think those Boilermates are made to run at higher temps over the long haul (IIRC the maximum you can set it is 150*).
 
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Old 02-04-15, 09:25 AM
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Saves, I will give that a shot, thanks for the idea! Certainly worth a try.

Rockledge, you're right it only goes to 150, and you can't even really set it there because you'll get intermittent ER-2 beeping every time the temp drifts a little above that. (the "too hot" code trips at 155 I think). Not that I really want my water that hot anyway though!
 
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Old 02-04-15, 10:41 AM
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Not that I really want my water that hot anyway though!
That's the point of having a tempering valve, to protect against excessively hot water.

Others have explained that the tempering valve 'extends' the size of the tank... if you keep the tank hotter, say 140F, have a thermostatic tempering valve in the hot outlet line, when you draw hot water you won't get the full flow through the tank... you'll get a 'mixed temperature' at a safe 125F ...

Drawing less, hotter, water from the tank and mixing with some cold makes the storage capacity of your tank appear larger.
 
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Old 02-04-15, 09:10 PM
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Drawing less, hotter, water from the tank and mixing with some cold makes the storage capacity of your tank appear larger.
Yes, this is what I was meaning to say was basically happening when my water was overheating and I was mixing in more cold water at the showerhead/faucet/whatever. Only the mixing was obviously happening at the spigots, not a tempering valve. Might be something to look into, but I'm sure I couldn't do the install myself. And like Rockledge said, I don't think my Boilermate really wants to run that hot or it beeps at me constantly.

I still think there's something up, I'm definitely not getting as much hot water as I should out of a 41 gallon tank. I still haven't had a chance to drop that temp sensor lower, but I will try to get it done tomorrow and see if it helps.
 
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Old 02-05-15, 06:10 AM
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I don't believe the high limit warning is meant to protect the tank , but to protect people from serious burns . The tank should be able to provide ample amount of hot water with out resorting to a mixing valve . Some get confused on the labeling ,boiler in and boiler out, if the hot water from the boiler is sent to the wrong side of the coil the water at the top of the tank will reach the sensor before the water at the bottom has had a chance to be heated.
 
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Old 02-05-15, 03:45 PM
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Saves, that's very good point. I will check into that as well. Whoever installed this seems to have made a lot of mistakes so I could see that being one of them. Thanks again for another good idea to check!
 
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Old 02-05-15, 07:21 PM
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Amtrol- Water System Solutions - Commercial, Industrial, Residential
F,
The above is a link to Amtrol. It's a little slow downloading but it will give the ratings for your tank.
The rated output of the tank depends on the boiler btu rating of the boiler and also at 180° water temp. going to the tank.
You wil first notice lack of hot water from your tub spout vs sink faucets because of the larger draw.
The water pressure in the house also plays a part. These tanks output rating is based on 50psi incoming house water pressure. Any more pressure, any less boiler temp., a low btu boiler all play a part in how much hot water is delivered.
I can tell you this about Boilermate. They need full flow going through the coil or they act erradically.
At one point they advised against using zone valves vs pumps because they said ZV restricted flow and although the literature probably shows either if you call about lack of hot water the first thing they would ask is pump or ZV.
The next thing they suggested when pump companies come out with check valves built in was to pull them out and put in a regular full port flocheck.
This is just some info that I gathered and has helped me over the years.
I don't know about now but the early Boilermate actually came with a pump.
I have had the same tank as you have now only a mechanical tstat (no electronics back then) in my house since 1984 and no mixing valve with 5 people (3) females and never ran out of hot water.
Just follow their instructions.
Hope this helps.
Good Luck,
 
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Old 02-05-15, 07:29 PM
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Thanks for that info Spott! It sounds like there's a lot more to learn about that particular Boilermate than I had thought. I did install a circ with integrated flowcheck recently and that's when my problems of too LITTLE hot water did seem to start. I will have to do more reading.

It could also have something to do with the many other problems I'm currently having with my system, but that's another thread...

Thanks again.
 
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Old 02-10-15, 10:52 PM
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Just to update, Spott I think you must have been right on about the flow etc. having to be correct through the Amtrol. After fixing my issues with my boiler pressure by replacing the expansion tank / air vent (the other thread you helped me out in), I have had no problems whatsoever with my DHW.

Not only that, but my shower heads don't freeze and refuse to work when it's really cold out anymore (which they had been doing but I never mentioned here). I can't imagine how just fixing the pressure in the boiler system could have fixed that (I had assumed it was because they ran the pex lines through an outside wall and my insulation here was crappy), but ever since replacing my expansion tank and getting my system pressure up to par, ALL my problems appear to have been fixed. The only explanation I can think of is now that I have proper pressure/heat in the pipes to the baseboards in the bathroom, maybe that keeps the pex DHW lines warm enough not to freeze anymore? I'm stumped as to why, but can't complain

Just thought I'd throw that in for anyone in the future who comes across this thread and has a similar problem. And to say thanks again Spott! (and others!)
 
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Old 02-11-15, 08:33 AM
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F,
Glad it worked out and we were able to help.
 
 

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