No circulation to 2nd floor
#42
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Were the pipe is pex can you disconnect the feed end to the baseboard and the end were it is attached to the baseboard and then attach an air compressor to the pex and pump up to 75 psi into it to see if the air will come out the open end of the pex. If it does do the same for the return pex .
#43
I wouldn't recommend that...
Believe it or not, chunks of ice can come out the end of that hose like BULLETS!
This is true... I once broke a finger getting hit by a piece of ice out the end of a frozen garden hose.
This is DANGEROUS believe it or not!
Think about what Hail Stones can do to an automobile! And they are only falling with gravity, not being shot out of a hose.
Believe it or not, chunks of ice can come out the end of that hose like BULLETS!
This is true... I once broke a finger getting hit by a piece of ice out the end of a frozen garden hose.
This is DANGEROUS believe it or not!
Think about what Hail Stones can do to an automobile! And they are only falling with gravity, not being shot out of a hose.
#44
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If you are afraid of what may come out the end of the pipe using an air compressor and as I am a great believer in Murphy Law maybe a better solution would be to pour some methyl hydrate into the higher end of the pex and hope it will melt the ice . I would use a wet and dry vacuum first to see if the line is open this would be safer .
[ MODERATOR NOTE: Methy Hydrate is also known as METHANOL and is EXTREMELY FLAMMABLE! Do NOT go pouring this stuff into piping! Especially indoors! ]
[ MODERATOR NOTE: Methy Hydrate is also known as METHANOL and is EXTREMELY FLAMMABLE! Do NOT go pouring this stuff into piping! Especially indoors! ]
Last edited by NJT; 01-10-15 at 05:01 PM. Reason: bad advice
#45
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Just because I have one I'm borrowing and it sees amazing things. Do any rental places by you rent thermal imaging camera? You can find the cold and hot spots inside the walls.
My parents have a Cape Cod with rear dormer. When they built the dormer there was a section of either siding/insulation missing. The cold air came through the soffit at first floor and froze the pipes going to the new bathroom.
If you know where the pipes run look for things like this scenario.
My friends pipe froze it was in the ceiling bay close to outside wall. Basement was finished, nice and warm but wall ended right there cutting off heat and air flow to that bay. I opened the ceiling tile where I could only get my arm in. I put a hair dryer in that side, and by boiler room (15 feet away) put a small desk fan (like using the shop vac) blowing in that direction also. 20 minutes later it thawed.
My parents have a Cape Cod with rear dormer. When they built the dormer there was a section of either siding/insulation missing. The cold air came through the soffit at first floor and froze the pipes going to the new bathroom.
If you know where the pipes run look for things like this scenario.
My friends pipe froze it was in the ceiling bay close to outside wall. Basement was finished, nice and warm but wall ended right there cutting off heat and air flow to that bay. I opened the ceiling tile where I could only get my arm in. I put a hair dryer in that side, and by boiler room (15 feet away) put a small desk fan (like using the shop vac) blowing in that direction also. 20 minutes later it thawed.
#48
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I have no way of disconnecting the pex, I was just going to see if I could suck anything out, whether it be any little trickle of water or anything to help get the flow going and maybe melt the ice.
#51
maybe a better solution would be to pour some methyl hydrate into the higher end of the pex
One must NOT POUR that stuff into your piping indoors. Even a static electricity spark can ignite the vapors.
Funny Cars burn this stuff as fuel.
Furthermore:
Methanol is toxic by two mechanisms. First, methanol (whether it enters the body by ingestion, inhalation, or absorption through the skin) can be fatal due to its CNS depressant properties in the same manner as ethanol poisoning. Second, in a process of toxication, it is metabolized to formic acid (which is present as the formate ion) via formaldehyde in a process initiated by the enzyme alcohol dehydrogenase in the liver.[14] Methanol is converted to formaldehyde via alcohol dehydrogenase (ADH) and formaldehyde is converted to formic acid (formate) via aldehyde dehydrogenase (ALDH). The conversion to formate via ALDH proceeds completely, with no detectable formaldehyde remaining.[15] Formate is toxic because it inhibits mitochondrial cytochrome c oxidase, causing the symptoms of hypoxia at the cellular level, and also causing metabolic acidosis, among a variety of other metabolic disturbances.[16]
#52
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Heaters on all night, still nothing. It's about 84 in the rooms up there. Doesn't help its single digits outside. Any other methods I could use simultaneously? Back flushing through the return with water?
Last edited by NorthMaine; 01-11-15 at 06:27 AM.
#53
2. Shut all supply valves except trouble zone.
You don't need to close any of the supply valves, only the returns, and in fact, you only need to close the return on the troubled zone. Water will only flow through the zone with the closed return valve and open drain and zone valve.
Any other methods I could use simultaneously? Back flushing through the return with water?
I have never tried that zone, so it's hard to say if it worked before this cold spell.
Any tips on finding the frozen section?
#54
Has this zone ever worked correctly,when did this first start?this system has only one cir,and all the other zones are working,correct?
Geo
Geo
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Zone was working when we bought the house. Pretty sure I could hear water flowing in the ceiling above our bedroom (where pipes run for that zone) before the cold spell beginning of this week which points to a freeze. System only has one circ yes. All other zones are working.
#57
What other problem could it be?
You are absolutely certain that you know which valve on the supply is for the troubled zone?
Which is why you should leave all the supply valves open. Water won't flow through the other zones because it has nowhere to go.
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Yes I do get flow by doing that. Is there any way to verify the zone valve is in fact open? It is in the open position but. Just trying to eliminate things here. I guess I would know if I could determine whether or not there was water in the pipes leading to the return.
Also all the supply valves are open and always have been. If there is a hidden valve I have no idea where it would be haha. Nothing in the basement that's for sure.
Also all the supply valves are open and always have been. If there is a hidden valve I have no idea where it would be haha. Nothing in the basement that's for sure.
#60
Is there any way to verify the zone valve is in fact open?
Have you tried the same procedure you're doing on that bad zone on another zone momentarily? Just another sanity check...
#64
I wonder if the valve could be isolated and the top removed so as to be sure the actuator is really doing it's thing,check the lower pages of this link,it states that the actuator maybe replaced.
http://www.kele.com/Catalog/04%20Con...structions.pdf
Just a thought
Geo
http://www.kele.com/Catalog/04%20Con...structions.pdf
Just a thought
Geo
#65
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Thanks for the link. I have actually taken the actuator off the valve body and manually turned the stem to the open position. I know the stem is in the open position, but have no way to verify of the ball is off the seats. Assuming it's a ball or whatever the sealing mechanism is.
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NorthMaine
Zone was working when we bought the house. Pretty sure I could hear water flowing in the ceiling above our bedroom (where pipes run for that zone) before the cold spell beginning of this week which points to a freeze. System only has one circ yes. All other zones are working.
Zone was working when we bought the house. Pretty sure I could hear water flowing in the ceiling above our bedroom (where pipes run for that zone) before the cold spell beginning of this week which points to a freeze. System only has one circ yes. All other zones are working.
Not sure where besides the return valve bleeder to add water to system. If it's pex the clamp DC heaters I don't think will work (unless the water conducts it also. I was almost thinking along the lines of taking water from the hot water heater (mine has a hose bib on the out to flush it also). Maybe a faucet adapter or even a 1/2" IPS to garden hose and remove the shower head. At least you'll flush hot water through, not cold. I'm thinking back feed with hot water as best as possible, drain, repeat many times so that you get hot into the pipe more or less flowing and starting to warm it.
Do the same thing but drain from a different zone into the frozen one. short washing machine hose should do for that. Yes you'll need to possibly bleed the system later from air getting introduced but that is normally much easier than frozen burst sections.
#73
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Problem is when backflushing is there is air in the pipe right so the water isn't even making it far. I hook it up and get just a quick burst back out when I take the hose off. Even tried sucking with the shop vac, closing drain, hooking up hose, turning on hose before tightening onto drain, then opening the drain and hose. Close drain, undo hose, and again barely any water just a quick burst. This further leads me to the zone valve. I am still not convinced it is really open but am not sure how to test that theory. It seems like the amount of water I get out is very close to what would occupy the pipe between the ball valve and zone valve...
I can't imagine that with using the vac to purge the pipe of air prior to hooking up the hose I should have gotten a lot more water in there than what came out. Regardless of whether there was still a bit of residual air.
I can't imagine that with using the vac to purge the pipe of air prior to hooking up the hose I should have gotten a lot more water in there than what came out. Regardless of whether there was still a bit of residual air.
#74
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Question.
The very first time I closed the ball valve and opened the drain on the trouble zone like NJ said to do, shouldn't I have drained at least the water that was in the piping downstream of the "blockage" via gravity? A zone that is not open/flowing is full of water corrext? The circ pump doesn't pull unless flow is available correct? Ie the short length of pipe between the manifold and zone valve should always have water in it even if another zone is circulating right?
So when I first closed the ball valve and "manually" opened the zone valve and hen opened the drain and got just a burst of water, doesn't that mean the zone valve wasn't actually open. Shouldn't I at the very least drained the water out of the 10 or so feet of pipe above the zone valve via gravity? With the short burst wasn't I just draining whatever water was between the zone valve and drain valve (which is hardly anything, like 3" of pipe).
The very first time I closed the ball valve and opened the drain on the trouble zone like NJ said to do, shouldn't I have drained at least the water that was in the piping downstream of the "blockage" via gravity? A zone that is not open/flowing is full of water corrext? The circ pump doesn't pull unless flow is available correct? Ie the short length of pipe between the manifold and zone valve should always have water in it even if another zone is circulating right?
So when I first closed the ball valve and "manually" opened the zone valve and hen opened the drain and got just a burst of water, doesn't that mean the zone valve wasn't actually open. Shouldn't I at the very least drained the water out of the 10 or so feet of pipe above the zone valve via gravity? With the short burst wasn't I just draining whatever water was between the zone valve and drain valve (which is hardly anything, like 3" of pipe).
#75
I have never tried that zone, so it's hard to say if it worked before this cold spell.
Zone was working when we bought the house
Should I backflush with the supply open or closed? Do I need to shut down the boiler and let it cool?
I don't think it will matter much if it's frozen... nothing is going to flow anyway, unless the extra pressure breaks the ice jam loose. That's why I said to watch the boiler pressure gauge so the relief valve doesn't spew.
Shouldn't I at the very least drained the water out of the 10 or so feet of pipe above the zone valve via gravity?
Do the pipes to that zone run up into the attic and back down again? You said you heard water noises in the ceiling... is there an attic above that ceiling?
#76
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All zones worked when we bought the house. Didn't have it running since then. Thought I could hear water creaking, cracking in our ceiling the other day which would be going to that zone. Our BR is on first floor. Pipes do not go into atic. They run from basement through walls into second floor floor then run through the floor to various rooms.
Supposed to be warmer tomorrow. I will have to try everything again tomorrow. Heaters still cranking though so...
Supposed to be warmer tomorrow. I will have to try everything again tomorrow. Heaters still cranking though so...
#77
You would have to have it vented ,think about draining a HWH from the bottom ,unless you open a HWF or the PT valve it's hard to get water out.
Geo
Geo
#79
They run from basement through walls into second floor floor then run through the floor to various rooms.
#80
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It finally came out of it!!! I think that's the exact issue here. Keeping it manually open right now so it always flows on any calls thanks a ton for all the help everyone!! Glad this is finally sorted out.