Hello,

I've got a few questions and was hoping I could get some help. This is my first boiler, so I am pretty green...but I have been trying to do a lot of research and searching. The boiler is a Raypak H3 0180r. The house has 2 floors and a basement.

1) My aquastat appears to not work correctly. It was set at 180* but the temp gauge on the boiler gauge was reading around 240*. I adjusted the temp on the aquastat to around 120*...now the boiler turns off at 190* and kicks on around 170*. Much better, but would still like to get it down. I suspect that either the aquastat is bad, or the temp sensor (or the copper wire) needs to be cleaned . Below are pics of the sensor and copper wire. There is a lot of corrosion as you will see...which certainly seems like a problem.

2) Does an outdoor reset take the place of an aquastat, or do they work together? I tried searching on this but couldn't find an answer. It appears that the outdoor reset (i.e. Tekmar 256) replaces the aquastat, but I am not sure. I would like to get an outdoor reset if possible.

3) I get a pipe knocking/pinging noise in the middle of a pipe run. I originally thought it was heat expansion causing pipe to hit against a floor board. However, this knocking/ping happens immediately as the thermostat tells the boiler to turn on....so I don't think it is solely heat expansion since the pipes haven't had enough time to heat up. Off course, the knocking/pinging continues after the boiler turns off. Could this be water pressure related? I bumped the pressure up to around 18 lbs, from 14 lbs, but that didn't seem to help. I tried bleeding the system first, but that didn't help. Any other ideas?

Thanks for the help! This forum has a lot of great info.

 

Oh my...

You've got a leak that needs to be repaired... can't tell from the photo if it's leaking at the point where that pipe threads into the boiler, or if it's leaking from the flange of the pump that I believe is on the pipe above that.

That needs more than 'cleaning'... you won't fix the leak by cleaning anything.

After the leak is repaired, then you can start investigating the reason for the inaccuracy of the control.

They work together, but I don't think your boiler has an 'aquastat' per se...

It's not 'hitting' a floor board, it's 'slipping' against a wood member, possibly through a hole in framing. The action is like that of an earthquake in miniature... pipe expands builds tension, then 'slips', making a knocking noise.

When the system calls for heat, does the knocking start off faster, then slow down? And if the heat call continues long enough, does it stop knocking?

Sounds like expansion to me if so.

 

Thanks NJ Trooper! Please see below.


The pump flange does not appear to be leaking, so it must be from the where the pipe threads into the boiler. This seems like it might be a fix I could handle...pull the pump...unthread the pipe and reseal with thread tape...reverse the previous steps with new flange gaskets...bleed the air out of the system. Am I being too naive and is this is something a professional should handle? I already scheduled a prof to come out later this week, but I like to DIY when things aren't too tough.

Please see the pic below. Isn't that my aquastat?

You are correct, starts off as a fast knocking, then slows down...stops after awhile...then starts knocking again once the boiler has stopped calling for heat. What is causing it to knock right away? It doesn't seem to be caused by heat yet since the boiler takes a few minutes to reach operating temp. Is it caused from pump altering the pressure in the pipe?

Thanks again for the help!

 

Are you sure the last letter is an " R " ?

 

Yep, I just confirmed it on the boiler.

 

Tape is not for 'sealing' purposes. It is simply a LUBRICANT that is used in order to get the joint tight enough.

I can see in the pic that the original installer used TOO MUCH tape, probably went round and round and round with it... I bet there's six wraps on there.

DO NOT believe the videos you see of even professional plumbers and pipe fitters claiming that you need six wraps of tape. It's total BULL DOO-DOO from people that don't understand. (like 'askthebuilder' for example)

Take a look at a REAL PIPE FITTERS MANUAL if you can find one on the web... you will see I speak truth.

There should never be more than TWO wraps of tape, and NONE on the first 2-3 threads.

Tapered pipe threads are designed to make a MECHANICAL METAL TO METAL seal on the last 2-3 'imperfect' threads. If one uses that much tape they will never be able to get the pipe tight enough to create that all important metal to metal seal. The tape just takes up space between the threads and prevents it from happening.

Then, after the pipe fitter THINKS he has the pipe tight enough, the tape starts to 'flow' and compress between the threads. The joint LOOSENS UP because there is no MECHANICAL fit of the pipe to the threads. The pipe is for all intents 'floating' on a bed of tape.

This badly made fitting won't usually leak right away. Sometimes they do, but it often takes weeks or months before the water finds that 'spiral leak path' and becomes apparent.

Properly tightened threaded joints of that general size ( like 1-1/4" ) should have 7-8 threads of engagement. This usually means that three, maybe four threads will be exposed. I think I see like SIX on that pipe under that WAD of tape.

You are going to need an 18" or 24" pipe wrench, depending on how strong you are. You will need to tighten it so tight that you may even move the boiler, so be careful!

From the joints that I can see, the number of exposed threads on the pipe tells me that probably NONE of them are tight enough. I guess though, if they aren't leaking, leave them alone...

What MIGHT happen if you re-do that is that when it is properly tightened, the pipe will be like a quarter inch too short. If this happens, will there be enough play in the pipe ABOVE the pump to allow it to be pulled together?

So, like I said, not more than TWO WRAPS of tape! On top of the tape feel free to spread a thin layer of quality pipe dope like Rectorseal #5. I personally prefer that black gooey stuff for black pipe... GRRIP is one brand:

15510 - Hercules 15510 - Grrip Thread Sealant - 1/4 pt.

 

OK, let me go back and look at their website again, I didn't see an "R" model...

Boiler appears fairly new, what is the approximate age?

 

The previous owner had the boiler installed. I believe it was installed about 5-8 years ago. I didn't see a manufactured date on the boiler, but it has an ANS# number that ends with 9a-2005...does that help?

Thanks for info on how pipe threading should work...good to know, as I have been guilty of applying too much tape on other pipe related projects! Looks like my pipe wrenches are 14", but I do have a 2.5' long pipe that I have previously used for leverage. I believe that I could make up a quarter inch of play, but I won't know until I get started. I will need to source flange gaskets first though, unless they are reusable.

 

I wouldn't reuse them. They should be readily available locally...

Be careful using a 'cheater' ... accidents happen and some are NOT pretty!

 

Okay thanks. Maybe I will just have the prof take a look at it later this week, so I won't screw it up too bad.

The aquastat is a Honeywell L6008A 1025. I've tried to find out if this model is compatible with an outdoor reset, but I am having trouble confirming. It looks like the newer L6008A can be used with an outdoor reset, but I am not sure if the 1025 is an older model or not. Can anyone confirm?

Thanks again for all the help NJ Trooper!

 

Yes, that is an aquastat. It's probably being used as a 'high limit' control. Is that the one that the coiled copper tube is running to?

If so, it doesn't match the manual I'm looking at.

Pretty much any boiler can have an ODR connected to it, it's just that one would have to be able to read the wiring diagram and understand where it needs to get connected.

Do you have the manual for your boiler?

Your model number indicates that it should be a '2 stage' unit, and the manual I'm looking at appears to INCLUDE outdoor reset on your boiler.

Is there a control inside the front cover that says "Raypack Staging Controller" or something similar?

Can you take pics of ALL the controls please?

 

The coiled copper runs to the aquastat.

I don't have a manual for the boiler. I couldn't find a Raypack Staging Controller. I did find a diagram of the wiring on the front cover (pic below) along with pics of anything that might be a controller. I think one is the ignition module and one is the gas supply related. I am not sure of what the others are. I noticed wires running from the zone valves to mechanism in the last picture...not sure what that is...maybe a power supply to run the zone valves?

 

I see that the description for the L6008A is "Circulator and low limit cooling." Shouldn't a boiler need a high limit controller instead of a low limit? I have a stand alone hot water heater, which isn't connected to the boiler.

 

Not 100% readable due to the forum resizing the pics, but I get the gist...

It says the boiler model is " W H " ... whereas the dataplate on the boiler says " H 3 " . I'll go back to Raypack website and see if there's a " W H " model manual. I don't recall seeing one.

What I can see of the schematic, I know this is NOT the one I was looking at for the " H 3 " model.

There is no 'staging controller' and the schematic says " 1 STAGE " gas valve.

Note on the diagram at the upper right though, it shows a temp probe connected to a " Fast Response Temperature Sensor " and you clearly do not have that. In place of that is the 6008 I would imagine.

Yes, power for the zone valves. It's a 24VAC transformer that steps down the 120VAC to 24VAC.

In spite of the Honeywell description, it can still be wired as a High Limit, it just depends on which terminals are used. Yours is probably wired to the R and B terminals, with no wire on the W terminal. R and B terminals 'break' on temperature rise and can be used by themselves as a HIGH LIMIT.

That's the one that you set at 120F, correct?

There's a very good possibility that the copper tube is damaged by corrosion, or that the sensing bulb is either not fully inserted into the 'well', or that there is corrosion inside that well which is causing erroneous temp readings.

I wonder if the boiler was supplied with that control, or if it was a later retro-fit when perhaps the fast response temp sensor failed?

 

See that circuit board under the wire harness, and the twisted small blue wires running from it?

Where do those blue wires go?

Wait, I think I see them...

In the first pic you posted, on the left side, it looks as if they may have yellow insulation on them, and they go to another temp sensor... that circuit board must be your FRTS...

Would it be possible for you to set up a free account at www.photobucket.com and upload a high res pic of the wiring diagram there so I can see it full size?

It would probably help to see some wider shots of the control area and that upper area as well.

 

Yep, the L6008 is what I set to 120F.

It appears to be a retrofit to me...the sensor has a copper shim holding it in place...I can easily pull the sensor out of the well.

I took some close up pics of the diagram last night, they are attached below in case they are helpful.

I will go look at the boiler to see where the blue coiled wire goes.

 

I went through a stack of papers from the previous homeowner and found the boiler manual. Says Raypak Raytherm Type H then it says for "0180B" along with some other model numbers. Don't see "0180R" listed.

The blue wires run to a sensor that is bolted into header (at least that is what I think it is called)...right below the temp and water pressure gauge. It then runs to the circuit board to a " TP1 senor" and "com" plugs.

 

I'm sorry, I still can't read the diagrams.

If you can't (or won't) put them on photobucket, then tell me this:

What is the device that is between the OUT on the FRTS and the "A" terminal of the gas valve?

I can see that the new diagrams clearly show a TWO stage gas valve, not the single stage I thought I saw on the previous diagram.

Is the gas valve original? Can you get a model number off of it?

Trust me, we're getting to how you might hook up ODR to the boiler... not asking all this just for curiosity.

 

below are links to the photobucket pics.

I will go look at the OUT and to A terminal on the gas valve. I will also pull a model number for the gas valve.

Thanks again!

http://s1382.photobucket.com/user/KU...?sort=3&page=1

 

Something wrong with the links HF ...

Never mind, I fixed it...

 

Looks like the OUT goes to the red wire on the aquastat. Then the brown wire from the aquastat connects to terminal A on the gas valve. I couldn't find a model number on the gas valve.

 

That schematic is perfect now... I see how it is 'supposed' to be... but it's not.

Which terminal on the aquastat does the RED wire go? And the brown wire?

They should be on the R and B terminals if I understand what they did when they changed the controls around.

No... something is still not making sense.

I'm hoping that they didn't do what I think they did... because if they did, it means that they may have disabled some of the safety controls... namely the BLOCKED VENT and the ROLLOUT switches.

Take a look at that diagram for reference:

Is there a black wire from the MV terminal on the ignition control going to the M terminal on the gas valve?

Is there ANOTHER wire tied in with that black wire going elsewhere? If so, where?

On the ignition module again, the drawing shows a "B" wire on the 24V terminal. Where is that wire coming from?

There should be a switch device (Blocked Vent Switch) on the atmospheric hood on the flue pipe. Trace those wires and tell me where they go. One of them should go to the following rollout...

The other safety is the ROLLOUT switch and that's down by the burners. Where do those wires go?

 

I think I see the issue ...

You said:

And according to the parts list for your boiler, that should be a

L6008 G 1025

Which is a COMPLETELY different animal!

The G model is a TWO STAGE controller. The A model is a single stage.

You're absolutely certain that the one you have installed is an A model?

There are not FOUR wires going to it?

Waiting to hear the results of your wiring investigation.

 

I'm sorry that this is getting so tedious, but I want to make sure you are SAFE!

Like I said, if they did what I think they did, it was the WRONG thing to do...

 

Not sure if you saw the #21 post, but Red connects to the OUT on the FRTS. The brown wire from the Aquastat connects to terminal A on the gas valve.

I will research the other items on your list.

 

Yes, I was wondering which terminal those wires are on...

If that's an A model 6008, there will be W B R terminals.

If it's a G model as it should be, there will be FOUR wires and two sets of R and B terminals, no W terminals.

 

OH... one other thing...

If you plug the L6008 G 1025 number into Google, one of the 'hits' you will get is selling that control for almost $700 !!! That is highway robbery... do not buy from them!

 

Sorry! my mistake it is a L6008 G 1025. There are 4 wires and then the copper sensor wire.

Thanks...I appreciate you looking into this!

 

OK, good... someone didn't 'hack' your system then. It probably is as it came from the factory.

Just be sure you are confident that the wiring matches the diagram, no need to report all my wiring questions.

So, back to square one then. We don't know for certain that the a'stat is bad yet. It may be.

I've sent a question to my friends at supplyhouse.com asking if the L6008G1009 which is in stock for $150 will replace yours. I strongly suspect that it will. I'll let you know when I hear from them.

The model you have, the 1025 is 'proprietary'. Honeywell 'brands' their controls with proprietary numbers for manufacturers so that ppl are forced to buy the parts from them, when in fact the only difference is the 4 digit 'flavor' number.

That's not a 'wire'. It's actually a very thin piece of tubing. It appears to be all corroded and there is probably pinhole leakage of the 'stuff' that's inside. There's a liquid inside that bulb and when heated, the liquid expands and pushes the switches inside the aquastat.

It is always possible that your TEMP GAUGE is defective. Can you get your hands on an IR thermometer? They aren't terribly accurate in most cases, but would give a general enough idea to determine if the boiler gauge is that far off...

I'm going to mark up your wiring diagram to show how the 256 can be connected to your system.

 

Forum will resize this, but there is a link to the PB full size image below:



click here for full size image

The BLUE and YELLOW wires can be taken from any convenient spot that is electrically the same.

For example, one of the thermostat connections is electrically the same as the BLUE from the transformer.

The YELLOW can be connected likewise anywhere convenient...

Try to minimize the cutting of wires as much as possible.

The REDs can go inside the aquastat, remove the red wire from the terminal, wire nut to wire to the 256. Other wire from 256 to the terminal in the aquastat which you removed the wire from.

 

I don't have an IR thermometer, but it was cold here last week and the boiler seemed to heat the house just fine after I had adjusted the aquastat to 120F...resulting in ~190F boiler gauge temp.

Thanks for the diagram! Looks like pretty easy set up thanks to your diagram. If I am not mistaken the "sensors as required" are included with the Tekmar 256 package (outdoor sensor and universal temp sensor),right?

I think I know what to do to connect Boiler 5/6, but then when I read your comments and I am unsure. the current red wire seems to be about 18" long...I was thinking I could cut it in two and connect the FRTS OUT red to Boiler 6, then run wire from Boiler 5 to aquastat. Are you recommending installing a new longer red wire from the aquastat terminal?

Thanks!

 

As I recall, yes, included with.

I don't think I would recommend installing the 256 inside the boiler cabinet, so this will mean longer wires, yes.

 

Have you looked into the 260 model? It has the option for indoor temp sensors as well. The 256 looks identical to the Taco unit I have. If I didn't already have the Taco and were in the market, I would go for the 260 with indoor sensors to allow the unit to have feedback from inside the house (zones) as well as from outside.

Just my .02.

 

I believe that the Taco PC700 is a 'badged' version of the 256.

My opinion of the 260 for this app is that it's a LOT more money for little (if any) gain.

I think the 256 is about 150 and the 260 is close to 400

In fact, if the 256 were any more money I might even say not to bother with ODR at all. Being able to do a PARTIAL RESET of boiler temperature will produce very partial savings.

 

Thanks...I should have originally asked my question better. I was hoping to confirm that what connects to "sensors as required" are new sensors from Tekmar and not sensors already on my boiler. That appears to be the case based on what I read from the Tekmar 256 manual.

NorthMaine, thanks for the advice...but I think I will go with the 256 based on what NJ Trooper said.

 

HomeFan,

Re: 256/260 ODR --
This boiler has a High/Low stage fire sequence, you will loose the low fire under most conditions if you add outdoor boiler reset.

Wiring:
I see Alpinehomeair.com still has a copy of the I & O (pdf) for this boiler:

Catalog No.: 2100.50W
Effective: 10-01-04
Replaces: 04-01-04

INSTALLATION AND OPERATING INSTRUCTIONS
RaythermTM Type H RESIDENTIAL BOILERS
Models 0042B, 0066B,0090B 0135B, 0180B


Google for 2100.50W

 

I thought about that too... and didn't think it's a big deal really...

As I understand the Hi/Lo fire on that boiler, upon a heat call, if the boiler is mostly cool, it will fire on HIGH until the water gets within 10F of the setpoint. (the interstage diff maxes out at 10F, so there will never be more than that amount)

When it gets close to setpoint, it switches to LOW fire...

I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of heat calls never get to the point that the unit goes to Low fire anyway...

 

NJ Trooper,

Did your friends at Supplyhouse ever get back to you about a replacement for the aquastat?

I tried contacting them too. They finally contacted me yesterday asking for the boiler make, model number and serial number.

Thanks!

 

Darn...

I meant to update this...

Yes. I got an answer. I was a little disappointed in the quality of the response.

My subsequent research tells me that the answer to the first question is YES.

And most likely the compatibility question is also YES.

I could see nothing in the specs to indicate that it would not perform the exact function. (the temperature range is slightly different, but should pose no issues at all)

Now that you've reminded me, I think I'll pursue it further with them...

And I did, and got a reply... (thanks Eli !)

 

Here are the two product pages at Honeywell, check them out.

https://customer.honeywell.com/en-US...uct.Rank&asc=1

https://customer.honeywell.com/en-US...700&height=580