Choices: air scoop, air separator, or high point air vent

Reply

  #1  
Old 01-29-15, 11:24 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: usa
Posts: 35
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Adjusting pressure after filling system

i am hearing banging and clicking noises from baseboards. I filled the system recently after changing expansion tank.
Temp= 180-220F
Pressure=18psi

3 zones, one on each floor.
Each zone has a shut off valve and a drain valve above a circulator pump.
BG Bell valve fills system.

Please remind me steps to fill system and purge air.

Here is what I think I remember. Please correct any mistakes or missing steps in this procedure.

Turn off boiler and let it cool.
Turn on circulator pumps in all zones with thermostat.
Open drain valve and close shutoff valve on basement zone
Run water at street pressure until no air bubbles come from drain hose attached
to basement zone drain. Takes about 10 minutes.
Set bell valve back to reduced pressure.
Close the drain valve and Open the shut off valve.

Repeat same procedure for first floor.
Repeat same procedure for second floor.


Turn on Furnace. Let Temp and pressure stabilize.
bleed air from the upper floor bleed valve. (I believe I only have one bleed valve in my system).
 
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 01-29-15, 02:49 PM
lawrosa's Avatar
Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Galivants Ferry SC USA
Posts: 17,799
Received 10 Votes on 8 Posts
Turn off boiler and let it cool.
Yes

Turn on circulator pumps in all zones with thermostat.
No keep circs off

Open drain valve and close shutoff valve on basement zone
Yes but close valve at circ first

Run water at street pressure until no air bubbles come from drain hose attached to basement zone drain. Takes about 10 minutes.
Not street pressure really. You want to raise the pressure to just below 30 psi or the relief valve will trip. ( Reset cold psi in boiler to 12 when done)


Set bell valve back to reduced pressure.
After you do the step below...

Close the drain valve and Open the shut off valve.


Repeat same procedure for first floor.
Repeat same procedure for second floor.
Yes


Turn on Furnace. Let Temp and pressure stabilize.
yes


bleed air from the upper floor bleed valve. (I believe I only have one bleed valve in my system). -
Where is this bleed valve...
May not need to. If the water is moving the main bleeder neer the boiler should take care of the rest of the air..

Possibly its not working and that is your issue..

Take a few pics...
 
  #3  
Old 02-02-15, 08:18 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: usa
Posts: 35
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
filled hydronic system, now pressure is up

I filled my hydronic system after hearing banging and gurgling noises from
the baseboards.

Now that is fixed,

Temp. is 180-200 degrees.
However, now that I purged and filled the system again it is reading 25-27 psi.

my boiler pressure gauge with all 3 zones on had been
reading 18psi when the system is running, before I filled it again today.

Note I had replaced the expansion tank at the beginning of winter,
and except for the air in the system recently I have had no other issues.

What should I do, if anything. Is 25-27psi too close to where the
relief valve will trip? Note I have 3 floors of heat, one zone each floor.
Approx 55 feet of baseboard on each floor.
 
Attached Images   

Last edited by wrenchmonkey; 02-02-15 at 11:13 AM.
  #4  
Old 02-02-15, 12:25 PM
Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 2,698
Received 11 Votes on 11 Posts
You can drain a little water out to 20 psi and that will be good for the 3 floors. Just don't let any fresh water back in to bring air again. 20 psi is good for at least 40 ft. Figuring 10 ft. a floor you're fine. The regular formulae to figure out what you need involves a decimal pt and math. It's easier to just figure 1psi for every 2ft. and you safe.
 
  #5  
Old 02-02-15, 02:42 PM
lawrosa's Avatar
Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Galivants Ferry SC USA
Posts: 17,799
Received 10 Votes on 8 Posts
Could be too much water... But that expansion tank looks small for your system... Is that a 30?

Did you check the air charge in the expansion tank before you installed it? Should have 12 psi but I would have put 15 psi with 3 floors..

Where is your air elimination device???
 
  #6  
Old 02-02-15, 03:06 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 2 Votes on 2 Posts
The regular formulae to figure out what you need involves a decimal pt and math
Spott don't like math... but if you want to know, just for curiosity sake:

Take the height from the boiler to the highest radiator. Let's say in a 3 story home that's 30 feet.

Multiply that by 0.432 and add 4.

That's what the MINIMUM pressure should be.
 
  #7  
Old 02-02-15, 03:28 PM
Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 2,698
Received 11 Votes on 11 Posts
Troop, love math. Just don't see the need to explain formulas when 2 for 1 will do.
Instead of .5 your at .432. In the big picture it's just not worth my time. Now radiator outputs or proper heat loss calc., that another story.
As you also mentioned, your figure is for the minimum. That I never do.
 
  #8  
Old 02-02-15, 03:38 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 2 Votes on 2 Posts
Yeah, but for someone that don't know the 'why', it helps to get an understanding...

Below excerpt from B&G publication:

There was once an old-timer who was charged with teaching an apprentice a thing or two. The apprentice was young and eager to learn, and it seemed as though there was so much to learn back then.

One day when they were working together the apprentice looked over the oldtimer’s shoulder and out of honest curiosity asked, “Why are we doing it that way?”

The answer came back like a slap in the face.

“What’s your point?” the old-timer asked, narrowing his eyes.

The young apprentice didn’t know what to say. The old-timer had turned on him so quickly.

“What do you mean?” the apprentice finally asked, backing up a step.

“I mean, what’s your point? You trying to say you think there’s a better way to do it? Are you questioning what I’m trying to teach you here, Kid? Huh?”

The apprentice looked at his shoes and said nothing. The old-timer nodded slowly to himself and said in a very deliberate way, “We do it that way, Kid, because I say so. Do you understand?”

The apprentice quickly nodded, not sure what he had said wrong, but marking this moment in memory. This would never happen to him again. Ever.

“Now, do you have any more dumb questions?” the old-timer asked.

The apprentice shook his head.

“Can we get back to work now?”

He nodded, saying nothing.

“Thank you,” the old-timer spat out, turning back to his work.

As the years went by, the apprentice grew in experience, but he never did get that solid base of knowledge that he needed to be better than average. He always hesitated to ask questions.

Before long, the people around him just assumed he knew things.

The trouble was, he didn’t. And he always worried that someone would find out. So when he was asked a question that made him uncomfortable, he would often answer with a steely eyed question of his own.

“What’s your point?” he’d say.
I could go really crazy and go into the old B&G "pound of round dimes"!
 
  #9  
Old 02-02-15, 04:17 PM
lawrosa's Avatar
Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Galivants Ferry SC USA
Posts: 17,799
Received 10 Votes on 8 Posts
I still feel since he is not pumping away ( Assumption from pics) 3 floors, and that expansion tank that was recently replaced, it may be too small and proper air was not added...

( How is that for a run on sentence?....LOL )



[ATTACH=CONFIG]45939[/ATTACH]
 
Attached Images  
  #10  
Old 02-02-15, 04:34 PM
Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 2,698
Received 11 Votes on 11 Posts
Troop,
NO MAS. As Sinatra said to Elvis. We work it in the same way only different areas.
 
  #11  
Old 02-02-15, 04:51 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 2 Votes on 2 Posts
no hay problema papi chulo!

I know that... just want to make sure ppl that need to know what they need to know get to learn what they need to know... entender?
 
  #12  
Old 02-03-15, 03:29 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: usa
Posts: 35
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
thanks guys... i drained some water from boiler. now pressure is around 20psi, temp 180-200.
I remember I set the expansion tank to around 14 lbs. It is same size as came with the house
almost 20 years ago. It is approx. 10 in. long and 8 inch diameter.

First Question: This is a click or thump from horizontal copper pipes in basement supplying the zones- comes like once a second. If I touch the pipe the rate of clicks changes. Is this something to be very concerned about, and is there a "quick fix".

Second Question: What adjustments should I make to deal with the present situation at least temporarily to hopefully get past the very cold spell here.

Third Question: (Sorry for so many questions): How do I determine what size expansion tank
is required for my system?

Thanks Again for all your help!
 
  #13  
Old 02-03-15, 12:21 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: usa
Posts: 35
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
adjusting pressure after filling system

I made the recent post on purging air...
In my other post I explained how the pressure was too high after
I filled the system with Bell Valve open, and when I closed it,
pressure was too high I think-25 lbs + when hot.

I let some water out of the system through the boiler drain,
pressure returned to normal,
but then my original problem of air in the system was back.

any ideas on how to adjust the pressure immmediately after filling
without letting air in with it.
 
  #14  
Old 02-03-15, 01:17 PM
Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 2,698
Received 11 Votes on 11 Posts
The only way air would enter is if you drained the boiler below what the feed valve was set at and it let water back in.
How much water did you take out?. Run your boiler @ 20psi and leave it.
 
  #15  
Old 02-03-15, 03:42 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: usa
Posts: 35
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Please answer my 3 Questions from todays post... 0 degrees tomorrow....

thanks guys... i drained some water from boiler. now pressure is around 20psi, temp 180-200.
I remember I set the expansion tank to around 14 lbs. It is same size as came with the house
almost 20 years ago. It is approx. 10 in. long and 8 inch diameter.

First Question: This is a click or thump from horizontal copper pipes in basement supplying the zones- comes like once a second. If I touch the pipe the rate of clicks changes. Is this something to be very concerned about, and is there a "quick fix".

Second Question: What adjustments should I make to deal with the present situation at least temporarily to hopefully get past the very cold spell here.

Third Question: (Sorry for so many questions): How do I determine what size expansion tank
is required for my system?

Thanks Again for all your help!
 
  #16  
Old 02-03-15, 04:11 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 2 Votes on 2 Posts
First Question: This is a click or thump from horizontal copper pipes in basement supplying the zones- comes like once a second. If I touch the pipe the rate of clicks changes. Is this something to be very concerned about, and is there a "quick fix".
It sounds like expansion noises. Can you show us a picture of those pipes? Might be an easy enough fix.

Second Question: What adjustments should I make to deal with the present situation at least temporarily to hopefully get past the very cold spell here.
Please forgive me for being too lazy to read back through all the posts...

Can you please restate what the problem is?

Third Question: (Sorry for so many questions): How do I determine what size expansion tank
is required for my system?
It depends on a number of things.

Mostly the water volume in the system.

I think you said it's a three story home, yes?

Do you have copper fin-tube baseboards? or lot's of cast iron radiators? Please describe.

If the #30 tank has worked all these years, I don't think it's too small.
 
  #17  
Old 02-03-15, 04:29 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: usa
Posts: 35
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
original problem

Name:  noisy pipe.jpg
Views: 641
Size:  11.1 KBName:  air valve.jpg
Views: 870
Size:  28.9 KBgurgling and banging in the baseboards...if i let air out using bleed valve on third floor, air and water comes out every day...didnt solve it. my next attempt to fix: I purged/ filled each zone again with bell valve full open. Pressure was higher than before and went up to 27psi and temp went up to 220. to solve this, I let some water out From boiler drain, but that let air into the zones again...so back to square 1. Note... Copper baseboards.
 

Last edited by wrenchmonkey; 02-03-15 at 05:01 PM. Reason: add pics
  #18  
Old 02-03-15, 05:01 PM
lawrosa's Avatar
Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Galivants Ferry SC USA
Posts: 17,799
Received 10 Votes on 8 Posts
Where is your air elimination device???

????

Pics...

Its probably faulty.... You only adding more air
 
  #19  
Old 02-03-15, 05:03 PM
lawrosa's Avatar
Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Galivants Ferry SC USA
Posts: 17,799
Received 10 Votes on 8 Posts
Sry posted without refreshing page..


Ummm Is that the only airvent on whole system>????
 
  #20  
Old 02-03-15, 05:07 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: usa
Posts: 35
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Air vent

there is a bleeder valve on third floor baseboard...lets out lots of air every day whenI open it...but water comes out too...
 
  #21  
Old 02-03-15, 05:13 PM
lawrosa's Avatar
Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Galivants Ferry SC USA
Posts: 17,799
Received 10 Votes on 8 Posts
IMO I would want to see more pics of the boiler from several angles... And this bleeder on third floor...

Most air may be from the bleeding. ( Not doing it properly) As well as faulty air vents....
 
  #22  
Old 02-03-15, 05:16 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: usa
Posts: 35
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
is the air vent automatic or do i need to open it... It is 20 years old...true could be faulty...but playing with it or changing it may do more harm than good, please suggest work around...will send more photos
 
  #23  
Old 02-03-15, 05:44 PM
Member
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 228
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Is the peressure rating of the boiler relief valve: 30 psi ? The valve has a maximum working pressure below the opening pressure.

You need the Height of radiation above relief valve to set the psi of the expansion tank precharge & feed valve setting.

CounterPoint How Hydronic System Components Really Work [pdf]

TECHNICAL BROCHURE FHD-501A

p 3 The All-Important Relief Valve

p 6 Pressure-Reducing or “Feed” Valve
p 7 Water has weight!
p 7 Square inches and round dimes
p 9 Why 12 psi?
p 10 What settings?
p 14 Compression and Expansion Tanks
p 17 Expansion tanks
p 18 Pump it up!
p 27 The Circulator, And How It Moves Water
p 28 Job description...
p 28 “Pump head” is not height!
p 29 Pump pressure and static pressure
p 30 How circulators work in closed systems
p 33 The Point of No Pressure Change
p 34 What’s in it for you? (pumping toward the system...)
 
  #24  
Old 02-03-15, 06:16 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: usa
Posts: 35
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
adding photos

Name:  boiler1.jpg
Views: 1074
Size:  22.2 KBName:  boiler2.jpg
Views: 866
Size:  21.7 KBName:  boiler3.jpg
Views: 594
Size:  18.9 KBName:  boiler4.jpg
Views: 978
Size:  21.7 KBName:  boiler6.jpg
Views: 632
Size:  20.8 KBName:  boiler5.jpg
Views: 602
Size:  17.9 KB
 
  #25  
Old 02-03-15, 06:51 PM
lawrosa's Avatar
Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Galivants Ferry SC USA
Posts: 17,799
Received 10 Votes on 8 Posts
Any more air vents look like this one?? You need to change that I believe. The cap on top should be loose... Is it? If water comes out its shot...




[ATTACH=CONFIG]45994[/ATTACH]
 
Attached Images  
  #26  
Old 02-03-15, 06:52 PM
lawrosa's Avatar
Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Galivants Ferry SC USA
Posts: 17,799
Received 10 Votes on 8 Posts
Look around the boiler and piping for any more vents...

426-3 - Taco 426-3 - 1/4" Hy-Vent
 
  #27  
Old 02-04-15, 05:39 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: usa
Posts: 35
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
reducing the pressure after bleeding

Lawrosa, Trooper, thanks again.

Please review each step, which summarizes based upon all of your comments so far. I just want a quick fix so that there is not excessive air in the system. I can make repairs later.

1. shut off boiler, let cool, fill each zone to purge air with bell valve set open.

2. set the bell valve to reducing.

3. bleed system at 25psi. using the bleed valve on 3rd floor, with boiler off. Note my expansion
tank is set to 14 psi. is that ok?

4. Next drain boiler slighly to reduce pressure as follows:
NOW HERE IS THE PART THAT WENT WRONG LAST TIME, ZONES DRAINED, AIR GOT IN, WILL THIS WORK BETTER?:

5. Shut all zone gate valves, both at circulator pumps and at the boiler.
This will prevent loss of water in zones when boiler is drained to reduce
pressure to normal.

6. Set bell valve to reducing. This will prevent help pressure from going too low
when boiler is drained to reduce the pressure.

7. open boiler drain a short time to reduce pressure to expansion tank pressure 14 psi. Open all gate valves again.

7. turn on boiler.
 

Last edited by wrenchmonkey; 02-04-15 at 08:17 AM.
  #28  
Old 02-05-15, 04:47 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: usa
Posts: 35
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Choices: air scoop, air separator, or high point air vent

Since I only have a bleed valve on my upper floor presently I want to add
a device to remove air from the hydronic system.

1. The choices are: air scoop, air separator, or high point air vent.
What should I choose?

I read the air separator works best. Also does it prevent
air going into the system if there is pressure loss?


2. Where should I install the device?
Note I have an old system where the circulators pump into the
boilers and the expansion tank is also located at the boiler inlet.
I am thinking to place it on the upper floor, before the point
where the hot water passes through the baseboards. Is this
the best place to put it?


.
 
  #29  
Old 02-05-15, 07:00 AM
Temporarily Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: NY
Posts: 10,986
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
What problem are you trying to solve? Is air constantly entering the system? Is it always losing pressure?
 
  #30  
Old 02-05-15, 03:53 PM
Member
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 228
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
That depends, are you using a compression tank or expansion tank?

CounterPoint How Hydronic System Components Really Work [pdf]

TECHNICAL BROCHURE FHD-501A
See: pp 14-17 Compression and Expansion Tanks
 
  #31  
Old 02-05-15, 04:56 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 2 Votes on 2 Posts
Wrench, you don't need to start new threads... you can continue with your original, having a 'history' helps others answer without asking the same questions over and again.

Have you replaced this one yet?



I can tell you this:

Whoever piped that system hadn't a clue.

Evidence:



Who would do that? Bush down the boiler return to what appears to be 3/4", and then split into three? That common pipe should have been 1-1/4", or whatever size the boiler port is. It's a 'traffic jam' of water going on there... a bottleneck... three lanes of traffic into one...

More evidence:



Why on earth would they install a flow check on the bushed down boiler supply, and then add three more flow checks? WTH is the point of that?

If I were you, I would first replace that obviously dysfunctional air vent and then see how it goes before deciding to cut into the piping to add another air vent.

If you are determined to cut into the piping, you might as well repipe the whole thing properly...
 
  #32  
Old 02-05-15, 05:26 PM
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Wet side of Washington state.
Posts: 18,482
Received 25 Votes on 19 Posts
Gotta agree with Trooper, that piping is a horrible mess.

That system releases the majority of the air inside the boiler as evidenced by the air vent on the boiler. If that air vent is not working then you will NEVER remove the air. I personally think that a standard 1/8 inch vent is too small for this location and I would use a 1/2 inch float vent OR a standard 1/8 inch float with a tee and a 1/4 inch manual vent.
 
  #33  
Old 02-05-15, 06:31 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 2 Votes on 2 Posts
I'd bet that the tapping in the boiler for the air vent is 3/4" bushed down to 1/8" for that vent.

One thing you could do that would probably be an improvement would be to install say a 6" long 3/4" (or whatever size the tapping is) pipe nipple and install the vent on top of it with appropriate reducers. This would probably increase the capacity of the venting, giving a bigger 'hole' for the air in the boiler to move into and more easily out of the boiler.
 
  #34  
Old 02-05-15, 08:16 PM
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Wet side of Washington state.
Posts: 18,482
Received 25 Votes on 19 Posts
It could be (and probably is) a 3/4 inch tapping. At any rate the boiler IS the primary point of air separation and THAT is where the primary air vent needs to be.
 
  #35  
Old 02-05-15, 09:02 PM
lawrosa's Avatar
Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Galivants Ferry SC USA
Posts: 17,799
Received 10 Votes on 8 Posts
whatever size the tapping is)
FYI common is 1/2" .
 
  #36  
Old 02-05-15, 09:37 PM
Member
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 31
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Sorry to jump in on a post with no help to provide, I just wanted to thank Heatworm for providing the link to that PDF. That's exactly what a noob like me has been looking for and will hopefully help me gain some of the basic knowledge I've been looking so hard to find, and prevent me from having to ask so many stupid questions, lol. Thanks a lot!
I almost think that link should be "stickied" at the top so others that are willing to do their research could learn a lot before asking the same questions that you pros have to answer over and over again... just a thought
 
  #37  
Old 02-06-15, 03:17 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 2 Votes on 2 Posts
so others that are willing to do their research
Problem is, those 'others' are few and far between!

In spite of the stickies, we'll still answer the same questions over and again... and I guess we don't mind!

B&G has many more papers that are good reading, I'd suggest 'backing into' their site and read them all!
 
  #38  
Old 02-06-15, 05:04 PM
Member
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 228
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Well at least the Automatic fill valve is in the right place given that the system circulators are pumping toward the point of no pressure change.
 
  #39  
Old 02-06-15, 06:01 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: usa
Posts: 35
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
More input

Thanks guys, I am learning there are lots of design problems here. Note that the circulators pump
Into the boiler. Does that explain anything about the strange piping arrangement?

I am thinking to add an air separator to the top floor because there are presently no air vents
Except the possibly faulty one on the boiler. I am afraid to change the one on the boiler,
Because if the threads break off in the boiler, I will have no heat at all. Maybe I can do that in the Spring. Piping changes are less risky.

My hope is to have a plumber do 1-3 hours work and get the
System back to its former self-worked acceptably well for 18 years...what steps here are most important?
I will have someone come tomorrow...

Note the 2 problems are excessive boiler pressure and
Air in the system.
 
  #40  
Old 02-06-15, 10:06 PM
Member
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 31
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Problem is, those 'others' are few and far between!

In spite of the stickies, we'll still answer the same questions over and again... and I guess we don't mind!
'Tis true, as much of a noob as I am here, believe it or not I am somewhat of an "expert" on other forums, and go through the same thing. If you ever want to learn how to grow mushrooms or brew beer, let me know, LOL. (Although from what I gather, you may know something about the latter?)

That's what forums are for though, and thanks to all those like you who do take the time to answer the same silly 'noob questions over and over again Learn and return, that's the way to do it!

I felt pretty damn proud being able to explain to the "expert" at home depot why I needed a drain spigot as well, instead of just an isolation valve, before the expansion tank. Incidentally, this was the same guy who actually installed the system in my house (that I am currently fixing all the problems on) about 10 years ago, long before I bought the house (long story and irrelevant to the thread, I'll shut up now...)
 
Reply

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Display Modes
 
Ask a Question
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: