Which pipe in basement supplies which radiator?


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Old 02-14-15, 07:05 AM
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Which pipe in basement supplies which radiator?

Is there some kind of electrical device that can be attached to black iron supply pipe at the radiator and to a possible candidate supply line in the basement, which could indicate, by signal strength, whether it's the matching supply line? It's not possible to say with 100% confidence which lines go to which radiators in our 1940s era two-storey house, and it would be good to know for certain.

I'm trying to troubleshoot why one radiator is completely cold. It is new, so we can be confident it is not clogged. All radiators have been bled, including the radiator in question; additional water has been added to the system, and the radiators bled again. Water flows freely from the bleed valve of all of them, including the cold radiator. Both valves of the new one are open.

One radiator was removed and its pipes are capped. But they seem to be plumbed with each radiator having two dedicated pipes to the basement, supply and return; they are not plumbed in series, so I figure that disconnected radiator shouldn't be causing the problem.
 
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Old 02-14-15, 07:45 AM
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You said this is a new radiator...what kind of piping set up do you have? Is it a "mono-flow"system? That is where you have special tees that are made to divert the flow partially to the radiator and partially to the main loop...Is it one larger pipe around the perimeter of the basement with a pair of tees and smaller pipes for each radiator? Why was this a new radiator?
 
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Old 02-14-15, 09:54 AM
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It is a Runtal OmniPanel towel-warmer.

Omnipanel Towel Warmer - Runtal Radiators

We did a DIY bath remodel. I asked the dealer if it would be compatible with our old hydronic radiator system or if it required special plumbing, and he said it would be compatible, to hook it up just like the old radiator, supply in one side, return out the other, and that it didn't matter which side was which.

The Runtal page says "Hydronic units are compatible with Closed Loop Forced Hot Water Heating Systems." If I understand correctly, that's what we have.

We have separate return and supply pipes from each radiator and separate larger-diameter return and supply pipes in the basement. Two pipes run side-by-side around the basement perimeter. Each of the larger pipes has a tee and each of these two large pipes has a 1/2" pipe connecting to each radiator. Mono-flow is a single pipe for both supply and return, right?

Here's a diagram that matches what we have.

Name:  ReturnFlowDiagram.png
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Last edited by tr888; 02-14-15 at 10:47 AM.
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Old 02-14-15, 12:33 PM
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T,
It looks like there is a bleeder on your unit. That bleeder must be on the return pipe and not the supply line going to the unit.
If it's on the supply pipe as the water enters it will hit that bleeder first and release initial air but will not bleed the rest of the unit.
I realize you were told it didn't matter but no one can make that determination without knowing what kind oh system you have.
If you trace your other pipes you'll see the vent on the return. There's a reason for that.
Good Luck,
 
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Old 02-14-15, 12:40 PM
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What you've drawn is a 'two pipe, reverse return', and it should be fairly easy to get flow through that radiator / towel rack.

If you have valves on the other radiators, close them and run the boiler.

See if that helps move the air bubble out.
 
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Old 02-14-15, 01:36 PM
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Thanks for the different suggestions.

All of the other radiators had their bleeder valves on the left side, and so that's where I installed it on this new radiator. I've moved it to the right side to see if it would help. There's good flow of water through the bleeder from both sides.

I closed the flow valves and as I was removing the plug on the right side, there was quite a burst of water and air, so the system was under a little bit of pressure.

But so far, it's staying cold. I did remember to re-open the valves

We don't have shutoff valves on any of the other radiators, unfortunately. The radiators are inset into the walls, and removing the metal cover panels is a major deal, so I've never gotten around to retrofitting valves.

When I remodeled, I moved the radiator location, and doing that involved extending the black pipe horizontally about 10 feet, if that makes any difference? Is it possible for air to get trapped more easily in a horizontal run than in a vertical run of pipe?
 
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Old 02-14-15, 01:55 PM
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Is it possible for air to get trapped more easily in a horizontal run than in a vertical run of pipe?
I would say yes...

Air can't really get trapped in a vertical pipe, it will rise to the top.

This tells me that you've got valves on BOTH sides of the radiator?

Close ONE and bleed.

Open that one, then close the OTHER and bleed.

Try that...

Are you familiar with how to 'jack' the pressure in your system?

If so, shut the boiler down and let it cool a bit, then raise the pressure manually as high as you dare go without opening the relief valve... say 25 PSI...

Then try to bleed as above. When you bleed, the pressure will drop, so do one side, switch the valves, raise the pressure back up again, and do the other side.
 
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Old 02-14-15, 07:20 PM
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I've tried shutting one valve and bleeding with the other valve open, and then reversing the process. No joy.

The pressure is @ 20 when the Temp is 170. To jack it up, should I let it cool down to 120 and then add water till the pressure reaches 25 while it's still cool?

Also, how much should I be bleeding? I'm stopping now after a couple of ounces. There's no sputtering, just a smooth stream of water.
 
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Old 02-14-15, 07:40 PM
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Is it possible to show us some pics of the install?

If you're only getting water there's no point in bleeding anything.

Your flow is probably not strong enough to move the air.

What kind of bleeder? one of those little pizzer bleeders?
 
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Old 02-14-15, 07:41 PM
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To jack it up, should I let it cool down to 120 and then add water till the pressure reaches 25 while it's still cool?
I would let it cool a bit myself, just because I don't like the idea of introducing cold water to a boiler. I know it won't be much, but I just don't like it...

Also, you don't wanna burn yourself with 180F water!
 
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Old 02-14-15, 07:43 PM
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Try turning off both radiator valves change the bleeder to 1/4 pipeing to a 3-5 gallon bucket. Have someone at the boiler adding pressure up to 30 PSI. Open the radiator valves one at a time. Fill the bucket none stop each valve. If there is air in a long horizontal pipe this is the only way to purge out the air short of installing a purging drain and valve.
 
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Old 02-14-15, 08:12 PM
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Yes... that's why I asked if it was one of those little pizzer bleeders. Can't move the water fast enough to move the air.

I suspect that the air is trapped up high in the towel bar though...
 
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Old 02-14-15, 08:33 PM
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T,
Since all other bleeders are on the left side and they all work that must be the way the system goes.
Shut off valves and put bleeder back on left side. If all bleeders are on left the water is coming from right pipe so shut off left side shut off.
When removing bleeder this time shut off both valves and open bleeder to release pressure before removing. When ready to bleed don't forget to open right side rad valve to let water into unit.
If possible Paul has a good suggestion but you must be patient.
You obviously have water there but no circulation which is caused by air in the unit.
This time when you bleed, continue to bleed until you get warm water coming out of the bleeder.
Keep the pressure as high as you can without blowing off the relief valve. When you get a good solid flow of warm water coming out shut off the bleeder and stop feeding water. If you have excess pressure in the boiler drain some water out to about 15-18psi. Open up both radiator valves and turn on boiler to test.
Good Luck,
 
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Old 02-15-15, 06:58 AM
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Once again, thanks for all the helpful suggestions. Family has asked that I not experiment until the 60mph winds and sub-zero weather ends. They're happy to have heat in all the other rooms

But I will try the purge with additional pressure in a day or two. Here are some pics of the installation. You can see the bleed valve and the two flow valves at the bottom.

BTW, the plumbing in the basement forks into front-of-house and rear-of-house, each half having its own return shutoff valve. Would temporarily closing the return valve in the rear of the house increase the flow in the radiators in the front of the house?

Name:  LeftValve.jpg
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Size:  18.9 KBName:  Bleeder.jpg
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Size:  24.3 KB
 
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Old 02-15-15, 08:57 AM
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Hmmm... bleeder is on top... water coming out... maybe the problem is not an air blockage after all?

Looking at the install manual, I don't understand the water hookups... doesn't look like what I see in the manual? (if you can call it that)
 
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Old 02-15-15, 09:06 AM
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the plumbing in the basement forks into front-of-house and rear-of-house, each half having its own return shutoff valve. Would temporarily closing the return valve in the rear of the house increase the flow in the radiators in the front of the house?
Your previous drawing doesn't show us that...

Yes, you might get more flow if you close off half the system.

Can you also show us where you tied the radiator into the mains?

Actually, the more pics the better, we might spot something.
 
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Old 02-15-15, 10:54 AM
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Progress!

When I shut the return valve for the rear half of the house, I get heat in this radiator, which is the last radiator on the front of the house.

Does that mean the pump doesn't have enough power?

P.S. Sorry about the diagram. I was only trying to show the separate supply/return lines, that it wasn't mono-flow.
 
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Old 02-15-15, 11:37 AM
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I shut the return valve for the rear half of the house, I get heat in this radiator,
And if you then open the rear half, does this rad no longer heat again?

Does that mean the pump doesn't have enough power?
It might.

What pump are you running?
 
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Old 02-16-15, 07:16 AM
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Yes, when the back-of-the-house return valve is closed, we get heat in this last radiator in the front half of the house; when the back-half return valve is re-opened, the radiator goes cold again.

PRESSURE
I've added some water, which pushed the system pressure up to 25psi at 190F (Aquastat is set to 180F). All radiators are hot now. Is it safe to leave it at that pressure permanently?

PUMP
We have a Taco 007-F5 installed now, but I bought another 3-speed pump as a backup. It is a Taco 0010-MSF1-IFC. The company that installed this system did not put isolation valves on either side of the pump. They also installed the pump on the supply side, between the valve that removes air from the system water and the Taco zone valves:

TACO ZONE VALVES...PUMP...AIR REMOVER...GAUGE...RELIEF VALVE...BOILER...RETURN
(There are 2 Taco zone valves: zones are "all radiators" and "domestic hot water")

They didn't put an isolation valve on the expansion tank either. Some day, I plan to retrofit isolation valves, but it would would require swapping in a couple of longer black iron nipples to make room for the valve handles, and cutting and extending the copper sections of piping. I'd really like to add a shutoff valve that would make it possible to replace components without having to drain the system first.
 

Last edited by tr888; 02-16-15 at 07:50 AM.
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Old 02-16-15, 09:05 AM
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Is it safe to leave it at that pressure permanently?
Yes, as long as your relief valve doesn't open... it's OK.

25 PSI is very close to the relief valve opening. In general, the spec is not more than 10% less than the valve pressure. Consider 27 PSI to be the max. Keep in mind that boiler pressure gauges generally 5uck.

I'm not clear from a physics standpoint why increasing the static pressure in the system has improved the flow... need to think about that some.

They also installed the pump on the supply side, between the valve that removes air from the system water and the Taco zone valves:
Sounds like a good thing... as long as the expansion tank is located at the same location as the air removal. In this case you would be 'pumping away' from the point of no pressure change... it's what we want to see.

We have a Taco 007-F5 installed now, but I bought another 3-speed pump as a backup. It is a Taco 0010-MSF1-IFC.
The 0010 and the 007 are very similar pump curves at higher heads, but the 0010 outpumps the 007 in lower head systems. I think that you said you had rather large mains in a reverse return system... if so, I would probably call your system a low to medium head system and the 0010 may be an improvement...

TACO ZONE VALVES...PUMP...AIR REMOVER...GAUGE...RELIEF VALVE...BOILER...RETURN
(There are 2 Taco zone valves: zones are "all radiators" and "domestic hot water")
I don't understand the 'heading' of this section?

I also don't understand what you mean by two zone valves... are you saying that the flow for the entire system, ALL radiators, goes through ONE zone valve?

What make / model / size is that zone valve ?

I see no way that a single zone valve can possibly NOT 'choke' the flow to ALL the radiators...

This should have been set up with a dedicated circulator for the indirect water heater, one pump for the system, and one pump for the water heater, and NO zone valves.

It's one thing when there are MULTIPLE zones in a home and each is serviced by it's own valve, and the water heater can be treated as it's own zone...

But to try and push enough water for ALL the radiators through a single zone valve is just wrong.
 
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Old 02-16-15, 12:37 PM
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TACO ZONE VALVES...PUMP...AIR REMOVER...GAUGE...RELIEF VALVE...BOILER...RETURN

That was just the order of appearance of the components, not a section header.

I'm not at home at the moment, but this is the type of head on the Taco zone valves: Taco 555-050RP Zone Valve Power Head. IIRC, the TACOs are on 1" copper pipe which transition to 2.25 1.65" inch black iron pipe (approx. actual O.D.).

I hope this comes through clearly (drawing with the keyboard):


⇨⇨⇨⇨⇨⇨⇨⇨⇨⇨ then this line FORKS ˂ to FRONT/BACK OF HOUSE


[TACO1] to "All radiators"



X (tee) ← ← ← ← PUMP....AIR RELEASE...GAUGE...BOILER


[TACO2] to domestic hot water heater



DHW
 

Last edited by tr888; 02-16-15 at 03:34 PM.
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Old 02-16-15, 02:14 PM
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T,
According to the diagram you have a 1" main feeding two 2" supply lines and a 1" indirect water heater all at the same time. Poor design.
I'm sure trooper will elaborate.
 
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Old 02-16-15, 02:48 PM
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My eyeballing was off. The actual O.D. of the main lines is 1.66 inches. (Just measured with calipers). So what is that, nominal 1" pipe? Maybe it's not so bad?

The house is from the 1940s. When the old coal-burner-converted-to-oil-burner was replaced about 8 years ago, the company installing the new boiler did not touch any of the black iron plumbing. They simply connected their 1" copper to the 1.66" pipes via a reducing coupling.

There is a Tee:
supply line #1 goes up to "all radiators".
supply line #2 goes down to the domestic hot water heater

After supply line #1 transitions from copper to black iron, the black iron forks into front/rear of house, but they're not really "intelligent" zones with separate temperature control. The "all radiators" zone is controlled by a single thermostat and has its zone valve. The domestic hot water is controlled by its own aquastat and it too has its own zone valve.
 
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Old 02-16-15, 03:06 PM
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T,
Black pipe is measured by ID. 1.65=1.50. Copper is OD. Information only.
The point is the main is smaller than the two supply's. Then if the HWT calls at the same time that cuts that 1" main down even more. I think that's why when you shut down one side it works.
That's like a 1/2" water main feeding all your faucets. One is fine, 2 at the the same time you notice a little less flow, 3 at once, you may not even get flow to one or very little to all.
You need the volume.
 
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Old 02-16-15, 04:02 PM
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They should have piped this primary/secondary...

With separate pumps for the boiler loop, the indirect, and the system.

If it were P/S, you wouldn't be having this issue right now. I'm sure you're not getting adequate flow in that system.

There should have been some form of boiler protection built in also.

The near boiler piping is all 1" copper? How many BTU is the boiler again?

Is the drawing accurate enough? Is the boiler feeding into the 'bull' (side arm) of the tee, and then branching two different directions? If so, that's just plain bad practice.

Did you tell us that the other radiators are all standing cast iron?
 
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Old 02-16-15, 09:15 PM
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There are 13 radiators in total, but they're not the large cast-iron behemoths; these are a pipe surrounded by metal fins. It's almost like a baseboard.

The drawing does reflect how it flows into the Tee, up to the radiator zone, and down to the DHW.

What did you mean by "boiler protection" and "the boiler loop"?

The close plumbing is all 1" copper. I will try to find out the BTUs.





T⇦⇦⇦⇦⇦⇦⇦ [PUMP]



 
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Old 02-16-15, 09:46 PM
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T,
Those heating units are called con vectors.
The point is, is that you're trying to feed all those con vectors that go in two directions and are connected to 1 1/2" pipe with 1" pipe.
Then on top of that if your water heater calls half of that 1" pipe is going to heat the water. Now you have 1/2 of that 1" pipe trying o heat your whole house. Not enough volume is your problem. The zone valves in your case don't help much either because they restrict flow a little also. Two seperate pumps would have been better in your case.
Trooper will explain what he meant.
 
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Old 02-17-15, 06:48 AM
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What did you mean by "boiler protection" and "the boiler loop"?
"Boiler Protection" is any of a number of piping schemes that serve to protect the boiler from receiving return water that is too cool for extended periods of time. "Too cool" is water that is below the dew point of the flue gases. When the boiler doesn't run hot enough, the flue gases condense inside the boiler and will destroy it in time... acid from the condensate will 'eat' it from inside out.

Fortunately, you don't have cast iron radiators... Convectors are much the same as fin-tube baseboard in that it heats quickly and not a lot of mass. Return water comes up to temp fairly rapidly.

"Boiler Loop" relates to primary/secondary piping... there are two 'loops' tied together with closely spaced tee fittings. The loop that the boiler is on has it's own pump.
 
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Old 02-17-15, 06:54 AM
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This is no way to pipe a system. The flow coming into that T hits that back wall and creates all kinds of turbulence.




T⇦⇦⇦⇦⇦⇦⇦ [PUMP]






It should have been like this:

...........
...........
...........
L⇦⇦⇦⇦T⇦⇦⇦⇦⇦⇦⇦ [PUMP]



 
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Old 02-17-15, 08:54 AM
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The burner is 133,000 BTU/HR. Buderus G115/4.
 
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Old 02-17-15, 09:03 AM
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For boiler-protection, is it possible to do a passive "feedback loop" without a mixing valve? The supply line to the radiators would branch and connect over to a WYE on the return line?

to radiators

..................⇩return
⇧ ⇨⇨⇨⇨⇨⇨⇨⇩
.................

 

Last edited by NJT; 02-17-15 at 10:06 AM.
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Old 02-17-15, 10:28 AM
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For boiler-protection, is it possible to do a passive "feedback loop" without a mixing valve?
Yes, but since you do not have cast iron radiators, you probably do not need it.

For information only at this point:

In your drawing, you would want a GLOBE VALVE on the bypass line.

There is a BOILER bypass, and there is a SYSTEM bypass.

Which one depends on the location of the bypass relative to the pump.

SYSTEM BYPASS

to radiators
.................return
...................
⇧ ⇨⇨⇨VV⇨⇨⇨⇩
..................
.................PUMP
..................
.......BOILER


BOILER BYPASS

to radiators
................return
...................
.................PUMP
..................
⇧ ⇨⇨⇨VV⇨⇨⇨⇩
..................
..................
.......BOILER

VV= GLOBE valve (NOT ball valve!)

(hint, choose WHITE text for the alignment dots!)
 
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Old 02-17-15, 10:32 AM
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Rather than concern over bypass, if you have your heart set on making some piping changes, my advice would be to first set up a proper manifold instead of that tee fitting, and then consider going to separate pumps for the system and the indirect.

Wire the indirect up so that it has priority and the heat and the water heater can't run at the same time.
 
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Old 02-17-15, 12:44 PM
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Everything I know about hydronic heating could fit on a postcard, so I am going to do some reading on the subjects you've been bringing to my attention, especially the primary/secondary approach.

Thanks again for all of the helpful information and troubleshooting advice.
 
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Old 02-17-15, 12:51 PM
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This would be a good place to start:

Comfort Calc

Comfort Calc

Comfort Calc

Comfort Calc
 
 

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