Riello F3 (2006) on a Viessmann 100 boiler

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Old 02-24-15, 02:28 PM
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Riello F3 (2006) on a Viessmann 100 boiler

Hi all, been a few years since I have had any issues with this system.

Got it cleaned and service last June.

About a month ago noticed the fuel smell occasionally when I passed the basement stairs.
Got worse last week. So I pulled the F3's cover to check for leaks. No found, pulled nozzle assembly. Gunked and sooted up? Did not expect that as when this system gets the right tune it soots very little and uses oil sparingly.

Cleaned it all up. Changed to a brand new Delavan .60 60W nozzle as per F3/Viessman manual.
A ongoing issue I do have even with a unfinished basement is air supply for burner.
So I left the basement window open about 1 1/2 and all was fine for a few days.

Oil smell returned.

So I pulled out nozzle assembly again. Still clean, little to no soot. BUT wet below nozzle. It appears to be drooling after it shuts down.

BIG ? What stops the oil in the delivery tube from dripping out the nozzle when burner shuts down? Naive me thought the nozzle was closed when under no pressure to keep it from drooling.
Just to test, I cleaned the end of the oil tube and puckered up and blew into it.
Oil spray out real easy?

Tks for your help

Pete
 
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Old 02-24-15, 05:41 PM
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I would suspect the tec has the electrodes too far forward were they are in the oil spray
 
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Old 02-25-15, 05:17 AM
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Tks save, I did go ahead and adjust electrodes to spec and then a wee bit back.

After everyone showers today I will pull burner assembly back out and check for unburned fuel.

Still would like to understand/know if the nozzle should close/prevent fuel in delivery tube from just coming out.

Pete
 
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Old 02-25-15, 05:38 AM
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Nozzles don't 'close' when not spraying.

A few things can cause 'after drip'.

Air in the fuel is one. If there are small air bubbles in the fuel, when the burner is running, they are compressed. When the burner shuts off the air bubbles expand and push fuel out the nozzle.

"Heat soak" occurs after the burner shuts down and the air stops flowing past the nozzle line. The radiant heat in the chamber then heats the line up and the fuel expands and drips.

I'm sure there are other things on the Riello that can cause this, but I'm not familiar with those burners... the above are 'generic' reasons.
 
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Old 02-25-15, 07:10 AM
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The Riello has a coil operated valve mounted on top of the pump which shuts off the oil to the nozzle at the instant power is cut to the burner which helps prevent after drip, Its main job is to prevent a flame on start up to give time to establish air flow through the unit and on shut down the oil is cut off to clear fumes from the chamber and to cool the end cone which helps to prevent after drip. IMO one of the best burners, one fault they have is the ball bearings in the motor don't like damp basement . The bearings can be purchased at any out let that sell bearings , I get mine at a local farm repair shop.
 
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Old 02-25-15, 07:14 AM
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Saves,
Checked and still some wetness under the nozzle.
I then watched several videos on modern, retention burner settings.
In my opinion my air gate was set too high and the flame cone was too weak, combustion box not getting up to temp and flame too far away from nozzle.
Adjusted back air until I got a real good, robust flame. Checked some visible smoke.
Eased back to no visible smoke.
Yeah, I know none of the experts here like this type of post and most likely will not comment.
Ordered digital oil combustion tester today. Comes Friday. Lets see what the nbr's are then.

Now I just need to get a soot vacuum to clean out chamber, boiler tubes.
Being retired and on a fixed income best I spend the $$$ and recoup it back over a few years.

In my experience living here tech's all seem to err on the side of CO2 caution.
Only one out of 4 cleanings/tunes I got did the burner run clean, no smell. That tune sipped fuel too.

Will be VERY interesting to see what the readings are from my adjustments.
As of this AM, burner no longer smells of oil when it turns off. Lets see how that works
when I take a long shower with the exhaust fan on upstairs.

Yesterday I added a source of outside air, 6" insulated AC duct down into 15 gallon paint pail located about 4 ft away from burner. If you stick you hand down into the pale you can feel the cold air in it.
When burner runs I get air flow from it as verified by strings of old music cassette taped to side of pale.

Pete
 
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Old 02-25-15, 07:25 AM
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NJT, tks for that info. Was wondering why it was so easy to blow fuel right out of the line/nozzle with just my breath. One of the vid's I watched actually address the fuel smell issue. Barring fuel leaks, it went on to explain how with too much air the combustion come is too small, and the chamber does not get hot enough to fully vaporize all the fuel.

Saves, luckily our basement is bone dry, its a walk out the back. Excavated right into about 6 feet of ledge in the front, ground drops away on all 4 sides of house.

BTW, I have two CO2 sensors in place. One right above burner other on stairs at top by the closed basement door. Both reading zero. The one above the burner had a maxium reading of 14ppm before I started looking into the fuel odor. Do not know when that was from, could have been recent or could have been last summer as I had not been checking them. Now I check every time I walk past them.

Pete
Tks for the replies,
 
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Old 02-25-15, 07:48 AM
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Sounds like the teck did not do an efficiency test after the service most don't . Here were I live we had a fatality from a gas boiler co . The teck I know replaced a leaking boiler , didn't do test and the pipes , side vent were covered in snow , the flue gases found a cloth dryer vent also covered with snow and filled the building. Police , fire fighters and tenants were made sick. There were no co monitors in the building, should come with the unit like the safety valve .
 
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Old 02-25-15, 09:08 AM
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Saves, that sucks. I am very careful about the air quality in this house as it's very tight.
I open windows every morning for awhile and again right before dusk as the Venmar air exchanger
was setup really stupid. It rain constantly AND the installed the unit, of all places right about the oil burner!
On a ever growing lists of things to redo.

With the price of fuel and air pollution, I would of thought by now new burners would have a feedback combustion system similar to auto's. Would a include a inline CO2 and a CO2 sensor feed from somewhere in the house.

The other thing that is not good is the wide difference in operating conditions btw seasons up here in Maine. As my unit is used for hot water, it sees decent amount of duty in Summer with windows wide open and air temps in 50-80's. Dead of winter house is all tight and outside temps from 0-40's. While the tank and burner are in a basement with a fairly steady temp of 60-75, the make up air temp varies greatly.

Tks again for your help, I am looking forward to getting readings and once I am sure its tuned, will get service man in to clean it out. Compare his readings to mine.

Pete
 
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Old 02-25-15, 09:56 AM
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Pete,
Riello burners aren't as homeowner friendly as Beckett or Carlin. They have there own set of standards that must be followed. If you have the book follow the settings they want.
One of the major things is the pump pressure. Your burner was set up specifically for the the Vies man and they want the pump set at 175psi oil pressure.
Riello runs very high oil pressures unlike other burners. If you don't run the recommended pressure sooting will occur. It used to be stated in the book. LOW OIL PRESSURE CAUSES MASSIVE SOOTING.
I can't emphasize enough to follow their specs. That includes air band and air gate.
As far as the nozzle dripping as trooper mentioned any small amount of air will release a couple of drops.
What is suppose to happen is when the boiler shuts off the pump which is suppose to be 100% shut off creates like a vacuum. Like the finger over the straw trick which prevents after drip.
If the pump seals start to go and it doesn't fully cut off the oil it breaks the vacuum and oil will drip.
I don't think that's the case with yours because you also have a solenoid valve which is also a 100% shutoff.
There are specific instructions on how to bleed that burner and if not followed the problem your describing takes place because of all the air not being removed. Not enough to cause noticeable problems but a nuisance.
All this is in the book or Google your burner for the info.
The best advise I can give you is DO NOT make adjustments without knowing what you're looking for.
Riello's are not that forgiving as a Beckett or others.
Good Luck,
 
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Old 02-25-15, 10:32 AM
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Riello burners are much easier to make changes to accommodate different size nozzles , they will produce good co2 numbers when firing in oversized chambers or in a steel chamber such as a Kerr furnace. The Riello in my opinion is very home owner friendly as you are able to set the air shutter to a numbered line that is set out in the manual for each nozzle size it fires , the same for the turbulator setting.The Riello usually comes with a hex bolt that needs to be removed for bleeding the pump can be messy ,I like to replace it with a normal bleed screw that a hose can be attached. Most Riello pump come with the pressure set at 140psi but may be set higher by the appliance maker ,you then of course have to follow there settings .These settings are described by Riello as a starting point only to fire up and do not replace setting with instruments the same as any burner should be set up.
 
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Old 02-25-15, 02:31 PM
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spott, yes, I know, seems local service guys have issues getting it right.

Spott,

Tks for your input/info.

I have the Veissmann manual that came with burner AND sooting has happened post service/tune done by a "Certified" Riello tech in June .

The original pump was replaced 2 years ago due to leak in fuel pump housing at back of pump. Original tech changed strainer and said it was fine, It was not. Tech was shown spec to set it to 175 AND he didn't. Following year new tech checked it and found it to be set to 145PSI. said he upped it to 175PSI.
The turbolator was NOT set to spec, the air gate was within range. The electrodes close to but not in spec.

I am a IT professional, took AP Physics in HS, and have been fixing and modifying anything that breaks/fails since I was about 10. I read voraciously on a subject, field test/try what I have learned until I master it. At this point I am inspecting the nozzle assembly after every adjustment I make and I only make small adjustments one at time.

Since adjusting the flame this AM as per information I read and watched late last nite, so far no more oil smell.

The combustion tester comes on Friday. Next I need the fuel pressure tester.
All the "tech" is going to do from now on is vacuum/clean out boiler and check readings.

We have lived here since Winter or '08 and I am pretty much done with the boobs around here they claim are trained tech's. At the rates they charge I can buy $500 of equipment and recoup the cost in 3-4 years, earlier if you factor in reduced fuel costs.

Pete
 
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Old 02-25-15, 03:18 PM
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Pete,
It seems same problem everywhere. Anything different nobody wants to know.
I hate to say it but with technology getting better our industry seems to be getting worse.
Sometime ago I was contacted to look at a boiler with a Riello that ran so bad he wanted me to remove the Riello and put in a Beckett. After numerous service repeat calls and getting the new house professionally cleaned to the tune of 3,000.00 (Ins.Co.) they had it. After the cleaning and the oil co. coming again to repair the problem it started sooting up again but they caught it this time.
I told him I would look at it. I got to the job and you could have had a yard sale with the changed parts that were left on the boiler surrounded again in soot.
After a quick look at the situation I got my oil pressure gauge. They wanted 180psi on this one.
Put the gauge on and it read 90psi. Lower than even a regular burner. Adjusted pressure to 180psi, boiler quieted right down, started burning the soot off that was there.
Changed the nozzle & filter and made all the proper adjustments and the thing ran like a top.
As it turned out the guy owned apartments besides.
From that 1 hrs. work I got all this guys business just from following the specs.
Pete, when you set this up right you'll be able to clean that boiler with a dustbuster.
 
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Old 02-25-15, 03:45 PM
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Spott is dead on. That burner/boiler combination set up right & fed clean fuel with plenty of clean fresh air is a sweet rig. I wouldn't be afraid to say with an yearly nozzle & filter change (might not even need that much) & testing just to confirm everything, you shouldn't have to clean that boiler for at least 5 years.

As an easy check to see if the fuel solenoid is leaking through, you can kill the power, disconnect the nozzle assembly, & put a paper towel under the nozzle line connection. If fuel weeps onto the towel, replace the valve assembly.
 
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Old 02-25-15, 06:22 PM
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Spot I do not see were you used test equipment to do a final check to determine that the burner is in fact adjusted properly in post #13 .
 
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Old 02-25-15, 06:28 PM
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LOL, Grady, Spott, its my fault! I was running great until I had it cleaned.

It was like over 2 years and it was running great. On avg over a 4 yr period using less then 600 gallons a year for heat and hot water in a 2100 sq ft house plus unfinished basement. And we have 3 teenage boys, long showers!

I got it serviced because your supposed to.

Anyway, I agree its a great combo and I will try what you suggested Brady.

As of right now, albeit, "tuned" by trial and error, its running well.
Will be very interesting to see what readings I get when this on Friday
to get actual readings.

Fieldpiece SOX3 Gas Combustion Check Meter - at the Test Equipment Depot

Tks for every ones input/help.

Pete
 
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Old 02-25-15, 07:16 PM
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Pete,
With electronic combustion instruments it is absolutely critical the appliance be running with zero smoke. Before using your new analyzer, make sure to check the smoke. Don't want to trash a new instrument (or old one either) for lack of a smoke tester.
 
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Old 02-25-15, 08:14 PM
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Grady, I see that I need a whole "kit" to do this right.

Combustion analyzer, smoke tester, fuel pressure gauge, draft gauge, soot vacuum.

I figure for the vacuum I will rig up a shop vac outside and us a 55 gallon drum in btw the vac and the burner. Maybe half fill it with water on put hose under water in it.

But I need the smoke tester and the draft gauge.

Maybe time for a trip to a few pawn shops.

Pete
 
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Old 02-25-15, 08:38 PM
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Pete,
I didn't mention it because I thought you had them.
Bacharach smoke tester and draft gauge. You can get a pocket Bacharach draft gauge cheaper than the big one.
As far as soot vacs go. They are made specifically for that with a sealed motor and the soot stays in.
If you try a shop you'll most likely ruin it and unless you devise something to keep the soot from coming out the exhaust it will be very messy.
Good Luck,
 
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Old 02-26-15, 05:25 AM
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I used a cheep shop vacuum and a filter bag for fine dust with a small filter bag over the ball cage with good success .
 
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Old 02-26-15, 07:45 AM
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I used a cheep shop vacuum and a filter bag for fine dust with a small filter bag over the ball cage with good success .
And you got darned lucky!!!
 
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Old 02-26-15, 08:31 AM
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I agree Brady, shopvac death sentence...

I do have one that the motor has its own air supply exhaust as opposed to the other style were the vacuumed air is exhausted thru the motor.

Maybe I just pick up a cheapo one at a garage sale or off CL for now while
I source a soot vac. Get burner running right/tight and just let service guy clean it every other year is the other idea.

Smelled a wee bit of oil today. Took off cover and that one metal cover over the nozzle assembly and it look dry in the tube at least.

Wife home today and doing laundry, running dryer, which of course uses/exhausts a good amount of air.

Need better fresh air supply. Working on it.

Off to a few pawn shops later to see if I can find a smoke and draft gauge.

Pete
 
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Old 02-26-15, 03:51 PM
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Pete,
I've cut the top or side of the Riello burner box & piped a 3" air intake directly to it.
 
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Old 02-27-15, 11:11 AM
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Grady, I thought some members caution about too cold air?

Grady, I read somewhere that some believed too cold air was not a good idea.

It occurred to me that IF the dryer is running AND on of the boys takes a shower with to exhaust fan on for like 20+ minutes, house is more than likely in negative pressure.

I think its best I just go and spend the money on that fan in a can you suggested awhile ago. Wire it in to operate when burner goes on. Was hoping I could make my own for less $$$ but not looking that way at this point.


Who ever set this system up the call for hot water fires the burner if the boiler is below its high temp point EVEN if the boiler is above its low temp point.

Maybe this is best from a hot water stand point as the ground water here gets ice cold in the winter.

Then they mounted the Taco SR 503 relay on the side of the boiler case right behind the circulator pumps so you cant even take the cover off the relay! WTF?
One can only assume the plumber came after the electrician, IDK.

I think its best I just go and spend the money on that fan in a can you suggested awhile ago. Wire it in to operate when burner goes on. Was hoping I could make my own for less $$$ but not looking that way at this point.

No luck at pawn shop for smoker tester, draft gauge yesterday. Shop was closed for the week for "tax inventory". Combustion tester appears to have shipped only yesterday so its not going to get here today.

In hind sight I should have just gone and order the entire oil kit for $500 and been done with it.

Ugh,

Pete
 
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Old 02-27-15, 03:13 PM
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The fan in a can is a good system. Often I wonder what or if some of these installers were thinking.
Yep, that 20-20 hind sight will get you every time.
 
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Old 02-27-15, 07:43 PM
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No combustion analyizer delivered today...

So GLAD I paid extra for 2 day shipping. My order only got shipped from CA yesterday even though it was ordered before CA cut off time on Weds. So its not getting here till Monday. Ordered over nite on a smoke tester, I should get here tomorrow.

Still zero on both CO alarms and only getting light oil smell when wife runs dryer.
Visual good, robust flame and no visible smoke as best I can tell.

Got 2 drywall dust bags for the shop vac and a cloth bag too. If its nice out tomorrow will work on make a window pass thru for the shop vac hose so I can leave the vac outside when I attempt to clean boiler. Have to wait for next weekend when it will be above freezing.

Pete
 
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Old 02-27-15, 08:48 PM
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Pete,
This is my 11:30 rant. This is just my opinion but I can't see where a dryer vent is going to make that much difference if you have an open basement.
The combustion air that the burner needs will get pulled from anywhere. It will take it from cracks under doors etc. Unless your basement is completely sealed meaning doors and windows it shouldn't really make that much difference.
It's not like a bathroom vent where it does exhaust room air. Dryer exhaust the moist air from a closed vessel.
With the houses as tight as they are it is a good idea to bring in combustion but I don't think running a dryer should create oil smell.
My washer & dryer were in the basement initially and then I moved them upstairs. When I did that I left the 4" dryer vent in the basement and am using that for my combustion air. I could have made it fancy and run it up in the joists to the boiler but I just let it hang down the wall and it works just fine and it's out of the way.
I actually have a shower in the basement with an exhaust vent with no problems at all.
Just for information purposes.
 
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Old 02-28-15, 06:20 AM
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Spott, I appreciate the input. Its too cold to take it apart right now...

Next week when it gets up into the 50's during the day and I hopefully have the draft gauge, smoke tester and combustion tester, I will work on it.

House is new and pretty tight.
While basement is open, its full of a lot of crap at this point.

Before I add outside air or left door open at top of basement stairs,
when the burner fired that closed door would jar?

Another not very accurate test of air supply I did, Standing at back basement door, with fan running in bath room right above where boiler is and the dryer running which again is right above boiler area, I watch the SS2 exhaust outside while opening and closing the basement door. The exhaust was noticeably effected when I opened/shut door.

Now I have a 4-5 inch vent/source of fresh air now from I took off the not in use Venmar. Have it going down into a 3 ft tall 15 gallon plastic pail right by burner.
So no more supply issue but now the basement floor is cold and the cassette tape on the edge of that bucket shows a small but constant cold draft entering the basement.

What I keep forgetting to add is this burner is vented
via a http://www.tjernlund.com/Tjernlund_8504105a.pdf

Makes me think the draft is set too high on the SS2. Draft high, air gate open to spec equals too much air?

A bit of luck, my wife got a patient at work who owns a HVAC service co about 2 hrs north of here where they use a lot of Riello's according to him. Hope to get to speak with him tonite. Unfortunately he is in the hospital with a fractured neck due to a bad fall so can not get him onsite.

6F this am so no screwing with burner. Smoke tester coming later today so will give that a go.

Pete
 
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Old 02-28-15, 11:43 AM
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Pete, you are indeed a wise man. Don't go messing with stuff until you have test equipment in hand.

Riello, unlike most American burners, has two adjustments which both affect ignition & combustion.
 
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Old 03-01-15, 08:28 AM
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Question OK, results of my 1st ever DIY smoke test...

Test 1 and 2 are the same, was learning how to use the smoke tester.

3 and 4 after I opened air gate 1/4 of a mark.

For now until I get the combustion reader I am leaving it here.

Still need to find/buy reasonable priced draft gauge and something to read
stack temp too.

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Old 03-01-15, 09:16 AM
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Pete,
You don't need a combustion anylizer to tell you you're burning much too rich. You are burning poorly.
You are looking for a zero to a trace on the stripes.
Personally I set it for a trace for a little higher efficiency.
Soot acts as an insulator and as it accumulates on the walls of the boiler it's costing you efficiency which is money because it takes longer to heat the water.
BURN CLEAN.
 
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Old 03-01-15, 04:24 PM
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Any day of the week, I'll give up 1/2 or 1% "efficiency" for a clean burn. I want ZERO smoke at 20 pumps. I've sucked enough soot for one lifetime. Maybe for 5.
 
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Old 03-01-15, 05:28 PM
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Guys tks for the feedback...

The dir's that came with the pump said 10, 3 second pumps.
I am totally naive here so, I read that to mean 3 seconds on the uptake 10 times.

Grady, so you recommend 20 pumps?

So do I do, say 1 one thousand, 2 1 thousand as I intake and just exhaust?

Tks

Pete
 
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Old 03-01-15, 05:33 PM
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Grady, trust me, I understand insulating properties. My goal is to get it running right, then either clean it myself or have svc guy clean it and retest.

Tks for your help guys.

Pete
 
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Old 03-01-15, 06:03 PM
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The dir's that came with the pump said 10, 3 second pumps.
I am totally naive here so, I read that to mean 3 seconds on the uptake 10 times.
That is correct. The 3 seconds is to insure the full stroke is drawn through the paper.
I use 20 strokes just to be sure the appliance is burning cleanly. If I get "0" smoke with 20 pumps, I know darned well it's clean. No doubt about it.
If the service guy doesn't have test gear, he probably has no idea as to how to use it or what the results mean. You're probably better off doing it yourself.
BTW: Never trust a single test. If you can't get reproducible results, something's not right. Most likely the boiler has not reached steady state.
 
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Old 03-01-15, 06:14 PM
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Grady,
Yes, random results are NG!
And being a novice I do it twice and thrice makes "tick tack toe".

"kit" i got did not come with the smoke examples page to compare to.
Maybe I can find one to print?

Pete
 
  #37  
Old 03-01-15, 07:54 PM
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OK, found the smoke gauge chart...

The chart that came with the kit is NOT the classic chart with the circles with hollow centers. Its a strip the same size as the test strips. IF I can find my old hole punch I will punch holes in it as that is the best way to compare.

SO using Grady's do 20 slow pumps it appears after my last tweak It was at about a 2- on the scale.

Went into my not often used file cabinet and dug until I found the binder that came with the house when it was built in '06. Found Viessmann and Riello install manual AND a supplemental sheet on the Riello as it was setup for the Viessmann VR1-27.

Turbolator setting is 2 not 1 as per Riello manual, initial air gate setting is 3.4.
Set it to those settings and smoke test appears to be zero BUT flame is weak looking?

So I am stuck at this point without a draft and pressure gauge best I can do is scale back air gate till smoke and then move back up to zero smoke.

Pete
 
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Old 03-02-15, 06:19 AM
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The lines for setting the Turbolator start at 0 just in case you missed it .
 
  #39  
Old 03-02-15, 07:07 AM
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Saves, yes, you got me, I had it set to 1 not 2.

The turbolator marks look like 0||||3 on this unit, and yes, I had it set to the 2nd line which was 1, moved it to 3rd line which is 2.

So let it run to get hot, checked air gate, was at 3.2ish. Did smoke test got a "light" but visible 1. Eased air gate to 3.5. Retested, smoke dot just visible by the dimple it made in the paper. Used the 20 pumps method Grady suggested.

Combustion analyzer on Fedex truck out for delivery, should arrive this AM.

Draft gauge due in on Weds.

Pete
 
  #40  
Old 03-02-15, 07:10 AM
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Service guy had gear. Seemed to be in hurry like most people these days.

Grady,

I remember him do the smoke test a few times, was real quick on that pump like he was inflating a bike tire.

Pete
 
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