3rd floor not getting heat!

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  #41  
Old 03-05-15, 06:54 AM
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OK, good!

I think that the reason you asked this was because you were wondering if closing the two lower zones would force more water through the upper zone... is that a good guess?

If so, I would say it probably would. More of the energy that the pump adds to the water would go into that one open zone, rather than be split three ways. It's not a LINEAR relationship though. In other words, you would not get three times as much, but you would get more.
 
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  #42  
Old 03-05-15, 07:53 AM
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I think that the reason you asked this was because you were wondering if closing the two lower zones would force more water through the upper zone... is that a good guess?
Exactly right!

If there was an obstruction in the line, would you still hear water moving in the line?
I heard that "flushing" sound again last night & this morning. And as I said in my prior post, when I purged the line got cold, both return & supply sides.

Also I may have to change the cut off valve.
It's dripping.
 
  #43  
Old 03-05-15, 07:57 AM
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You may not have enough pressure in the system for three floors, AND/OR the gauge on your boiler may be inaccurate (although my experience is that those old square gauges have stood the test of time... but still is possible not accurate).

Does your home have 10' ceilings? The boiler is in the basement and there are three floors above?

Please estimate the height from the bottom of boiler to the highest radiator in the system.

As mentioned before, if there is not enough STATIC pressure in the system, you will always have trouble with air in the system, particularly on the upper floor.
 
  #44  
Old 03-05-15, 08:14 AM
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You may not have enough pressure in the system for three floors, AND/OR the gauge on your boiler may be inaccurate (although my experience is that those old square gauges have stood the test of time... but still is possible not accurate).
I understand that & thought that may be a possibility. Last night after I purged I left the pressure at 20 psi with the boiler not running. When it did start to run, it went up to 25 psi. So not sure. Is there a way to get the pressure reading without troubling that gauge?
I'm really trying to survive the rest of the heating season and then I will address the entire system in the summer.

The boiler is in the basement and there are three floors above?
Correct again!

Does your home have 10' ceilings?
The ceilings are approximately 8-9 ft. I'll double check when I get home.

Please estimate the height from the bottom of boiler to the highest radiator in the system
Approximately 27 ft; again I will verify when I get back home.

As mentioned before, if there is not enough STATIC pressure in the system, you will always have trouble with air in the system, particularly on the upper floor.
Understood.

I really appreciate you & spott helping me out! Hopefully we can solve this and get me thru the heating season.

Thx,
Brian
 
  #45  
Old 03-05-15, 08:24 AM
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Approximately 27 ft;
20 PSI should be more than enough, in fact, that would take you to about 37 feet.

About the gauge, read this:

http://www.doityourself.com/forum/bo...ure-gauge.html
 
  #46  
Old 03-05-15, 08:43 AM
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Thx.
When I get home later @6pm I'll try again and verify all the info we talked about.
 
  #47  
Old 03-06-15, 07:30 AM
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weird!
I didn't do anything last night. Now when I go downstairs the pressure gauge is reading 15 psi. On wednesday I left it at 20 psi when cold & it went up to 25 psi when running.

What could cause the pressure to drop?
 
  #48  
Old 03-06-15, 08:51 AM
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What could cause the pressure to drop?
The pressure is dependent on the water temperature. How much cooler is the water that you are now measuring?

Also, of course a slowly weeping connection somewhere ...

And finally, if you have automatic air vents that are releasing air (as they should be) the pressure will drop and you will have to add some more water.
 
  #49  
Old 03-06-15, 09:05 AM
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The pressure is dependent on the water temperature. How much cooler is the water that you are now measuring?
Had the system running to the two floors, so the temp should have been ok.

Also, of course a slowly weeping connection somewhere ...
Could this be the cause of the air getting into the 3rd floor line? I'm beginning to think so.
How would I check for that?

And finally, if you have automatic air vents that are releasing air (as they should be) the pressure will drop and you will have to add some more water.
An auto fill would alleviate this need, yes?

I also verified the ceiling heights (8 ft), so from the bottom of the boiler to the uppermost line would be no more than 25 ft.
 
  #50  
Old 03-06-15, 09:59 AM
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Could this be the cause of the air getting into the 3rd floor line? I'm beginning to think so. How would I check for that?
Sure it could... visual inspection of every single fitting that you can see is the first step. You aren't looking for water necessarily because it often evaporates before you see it, but it leaves behind mineral residue. Usually whitish, greenish... crusty, fluffy...

An auto fill would alleviate this need, yes?
Yes, but it would also mask a leak by keeping the boiler topped off all the time.

from the bottom of the boiler to the uppermost line would be no more than 25 ft.
20 PSI on a cold boiler would be more than enough then.
 
  #51  
Old 03-06-15, 10:06 AM
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I have the boiler cooling again.
Gonna give it one last shot before I call in a "professional" & hope it doesn't cost me an arm & a leg!!
 
  #52  
Old 03-06-15, 01:41 PM
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Ok!
I came back home to a cool boiler. All supplies & returns were cool to the touch and all radiators were cold.
I closed 2 of the 3 returns and ran the boiler.
As the open return got hot, i confirmed that the supply got hot. Then I went to the radiator on each floor to confirm that they got hot and to verify each line.

Now when I got to the 3rd fl line, the return got hot, but the supply did NOT! I'm thinking that the return got hot from "back flow" (for lack of a better term) from the boiler. I'm going to let it cool and purge the 3rd fl and see what happens.

The pressure was at 20 psi before I fired the boiler and went up to 25 psi.

Could the air in the line prevent the supply side from getting hot?

And if I successfully purge the line and get cold water I can rule out an obstruction, yes?
 
  #53  
Old 03-06-15, 03:43 PM
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No luck!

When attempting to purge the 3rd fl line I had to empty ~25 gallons of water. and the disturbing part is that the 2nd fl line got colder that the 3rd fl!

Going to have to call someone in.

In my untrained opinion, the obstruction is on the 3rd fl supply side at the boiler.

Thanks for all of the help trying to figure this situation out.
 
  #54  
Old 03-06-15, 05:43 PM
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F,
I thought you had baseboard heat but you said you checked all rads. What do you have because they would be piped differently.
It almost sounds as if you are shot circuiting that 3rd floor. In other words your supply water for that floor is somehow returning back to the return line without going to the 3rd floor. For lack of a better term you may have a cross connection. You may need a check valve in that system somewhere.
I ran into this once before. Too long for this column but it will drive you nuts.
Good Luck,
 
  #55  
Old 03-06-15, 06:24 PM
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I thought you had baseboard heat but you said you checked all rads. What do you have because they would be piped differently.
I do have baseboards. So I sorry for using the wrong terminology. I think that whoever put the baseboards in did something messed up.

It almost sounds as if you are shot circuiting that 3rd floor. In other words your supply water for that floor is somehow returning back to the return line without going to the 3rd floor.
I would agree. But even more screwy is that up until Sunday, it was working fine until some point in the night the circulation pump went.

Go figure.
 
  #56  
Old 03-06-15, 07:30 PM
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Unfortunately without being able to be there I'm in a quandry.
 
  #57  
Old 03-07-15, 09:09 AM
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I would double/triple check the open/closed status of those valves.
 
  #58  
Old 03-08-15, 07:47 AM
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I would double/triple check the open/closed status of those valves.
I will. I'm still getting that gushing sound in the 3rd fl lines.
 
  #59  
Old 03-08-15, 10:02 AM
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FixerB,
Yes they only go a 1/4 turn. But the one in the middle just keeps turning. That's what makes me think it's bad. The "stop bar" is bent, thus not stopping it.
From your pictures I can see the bent stop bar, it is part of the handle or slides over the valve steam.

Could you identify what floor goes with what return valve (left to right is fine, 1st,2nd,3rd floor.)
 
  #60  
Old 03-08-15, 01:56 PM
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Heatworm,
The "stop bar" is bent, thus not stopping it.
From your pictures I can see the bent stop bar, it is part of the handle or slides over the valve steam.
I've been visually lining up to the stop bar!

Could you identify what floor goes with what return valve (left to right is fine, 1st,2nd,3rd floor.)
Left to right, 3rd, 2nd, 1st.
I determined that by operating each line individually and phisically going to see which line was getting hot on the floor itself.
 
  #61  
Old 03-08-15, 02:33 PM
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Ok, In the picture the 3rd floor valve does not look as if it is assembled the same as the other two valves, is that a optical illusion?
 
  #62  
Old 03-08-15, 02:42 PM
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What pump was installed before this one was replaced?

Was it a three piece?
 
  #63  
Old 03-08-15, 04:31 PM
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Ok, In the picture the 3rd floor valve does not look as if it is assembled the same as the other two valves, is that a optical illusion?
It must be an optical illusion. The are exactly the same.

What pump was installed before this one was replaced?

Was it a three piece?
Same Taco ,I'll take a pic later or tomorrow.
 

Last edited by FixerB; 03-08-15 at 05:14 PM.
  #64  
Old 03-08-15, 05:00 PM
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And it worked properly before the pump was changed?
 

Last edited by NJT; 03-10-15 at 02:27 PM.
  #65  
Old 03-08-15, 05:43 PM
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F,
Possibly a foolish question but the pump is going in the right direction.Arrow pointing down.
 
  #66  
Old 03-10-15, 11:29 AM
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F,
Possibly a foolish question but the pump is going in the right direction.Arrow pointing down.
Spott,
I will double check but I'm comfortable saying that it was installed correct.
 
  #67  
Old 03-18-15, 08:21 AM
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Hi Gents, I'm back!
Still having the same issue. I was just so frustrated that I left it alone for a few days.

@spott
Possibly a foolish question but the pump is going in the right direction.Arrow pointing down.
I checked & the arrow is pointing down. So the pump is installed correct.

@NJT
And it worked properly before the pump was changed?
Yes it was working fine prior to the pump being changed. But I've had the problem a few years ago. But it was resolved by purging the line.

The weather was nice for a few days and I was hoping I could not worry about it until I had the $ to get the whole system evaluated and repaired as necessary. Plus I'm looking to have some of the fins moved from inside walls to under the windows.

I purged the line again and the supply in the boiler room got hot...



But about 25 ft away, just before the line starts to rise, it's cold...



And I've still heard the "flushing" sound in the line on the 3rd fl. I'm thinking that this "flushing" sound says that there is air in the line, but it's not blocked. Does that make sense?

Another thing that I've noticed and am wondering if it could have any effect on the line, is there is a line to a radiator in the basement.

It's tied into the 1st fl supply...



but the 3rd fl return...

 
  #68  
Old 03-18-15, 09:42 AM
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And there's that 'cross connection' that I believe Spott mentioned way back.

So what seems to be happening is that when you purge the 3rd floor zone, you are not flowing through the zone, but only that one cross connected radiator.

Is there (hopefully) a valve to shut off that radiator?

Not reading back, but memory tells me that you said when you purge the 3rd floor zone, that the 1st floor supply got hot? Well, this is why...
 
  #69  
Old 03-18-15, 02:54 PM
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Is there (hopefully) a valve to shut off that radiator?
Yes there is.

There are valves on the supply & return side of the basement radiator.

you said when you purge the 3rd floor zone, that the 1st floor supply got hot? Well, this is why...
Makes sense. But what doesn't, is why it was working before changing the pump!
 
  #70  
Old 03-18-15, 02:58 PM
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OK, close one or both of the valves on the basement zone and repurge the upstairs zone.

Makes sense. But what doesn't, is why it was working before changing the pump!
Hydronics seldom makes sense!

Either someone closed the basement rad valves when they purged last, or they got lucky.
 
  #71  
Old 03-19-15, 09:25 AM
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OK, close one or both of the valves on the basement zone and repurge the upstairs zone
WE HAVE HEAT ON THE 3rd FLOOR AGAIN!!! :HF2:

Thank you so much for your help Gents!
Now I can relax, make it thru the rest of this cold weather and address my heating system in the summer.

I will get the lines routed properly, but what do you think will happen if I open the valves on the basement zone??
 
  #72  
Old 03-19-15, 12:22 PM
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what do you think will happen if I open the valves on the basement zone??
I don't see any reason why it would not work properly as it did before.
 
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