3rd floor not getting heat!
#41
03-05-15, 07:54 AM
OK, good!
I think that the reason you asked this was because you were wondering if closing the two lower zones would force more water through the upper zone... is that a good guess?
If so, I would say it probably would. More of the energy that the pump adds to the water would go into that one open zone, rather than be split three ways. It's not a LINEAR relationship though. In other words, you would not get three times as much, but you would get more.
I think that the reason you asked this was because you were wondering if closing the two lower zones would force more water through the upper zone... is that a good guess?
If so, I would say it probably would. More of the energy that the pump adds to the water would go into that one open zone, rather than be split three ways. It's not a LINEAR relationship though. In other words, you would not get three times as much, but you would get more.
#42
03-05-15, 08:53 AM
I think that the reason you asked this was because you were wondering if closing the two lower zones would force more water through the upper zone... is that a good guess?
If there was an obstruction in the line, would you still hear water moving in the line?
I heard that "flushing" sound again last night & this morning. And as I said in my prior post, when I purged the line got cold, both return & supply sides.
Also I may have to change the cut off valve.
It's dripping.
#43
03-05-15, 08:57 AM
You may not have enough pressure in the system for three floors, AND/OR the gauge on your boiler may be inaccurate (although my experience is that those old square gauges have stood the test of time... but still is possible not accurate).
Does your home have 10' ceilings? The boiler is in the basement and there are three floors above?
Please estimate the height from the bottom of boiler to the highest radiator in the system.
As mentioned before, if there is not enough STATIC pressure in the system, you will always have trouble with air in the system, particularly on the upper floor.
Does your home have 10' ceilings? The boiler is in the basement and there are three floors above?
Please estimate the height from the bottom of boiler to the highest radiator in the system.
As mentioned before, if there is not enough STATIC pressure in the system, you will always have trouble with air in the system, particularly on the upper floor.
#44
03-05-15, 09:14 AM
You may not have enough pressure in the system for three floors, AND/OR the gauge on your boiler may be inaccurate (although my experience is that those old square gauges have stood the test of time... but still is possible not accurate).
I'm really trying to survive the rest of the heating season and then I will address the entire system in the summer.
The boiler is in the basement and there are three floors above?
Does your home have 10' ceilings?
Please estimate the height from the bottom of boiler to the highest radiator in the system
As mentioned before, if there is not enough STATIC pressure in the system, you will always have trouble with air in the system, particularly on the upper floor.
I really appreciate you & spott helping me out! Hopefully we can solve this and get me thru the heating season.
Thx,
Brian
#45
03-05-15, 09:24 AM
Approximately 27 ft;
About the gauge, read this:
http://www.doityourself.com/forum/bo...ure-gauge.html
#47
03-06-15, 08:30 AM
weird!
I didn't do anything last night. Now when I go downstairs the pressure gauge is reading 15 psi. On wednesday I left it at 20 psi when cold & it went up to 25 psi when running.
What could cause the pressure to drop?
I didn't do anything last night. Now when I go downstairs the pressure gauge is reading 15 psi. On wednesday I left it at 20 psi when cold & it went up to 25 psi when running.
What could cause the pressure to drop?
#48
03-06-15, 09:51 AM
What could cause the pressure to drop?
Also, of course a slowly weeping connection somewhere ...
And finally, if you have automatic air vents that are releasing air (as they should be) the pressure will drop and you will have to add some more water.
#49
03-06-15, 10:05 AM
The pressure is dependent on the water temperature. How much cooler is the water that you are now measuring?
Also, of course a slowly weeping connection somewhere ...
How would I check for that?
And finally, if you have automatic air vents that are releasing air (as they should be) the pressure will drop and you will have to add some more water.
I also verified the ceiling heights (8 ft), so from the bottom of the boiler to the uppermost line would be no more than 25 ft.
#50
03-06-15, 10:59 AM
Could this be the cause of the air getting into the 3rd floor line? I'm beginning to think so. How would I check for that?
An auto fill would alleviate this need, yes?
from the bottom of the boiler to the uppermost line would be no more than 25 ft.
#52
03-06-15, 02:41 PM
Ok!
I came back home to a cool boiler. All supplies & returns were cool to the touch and all radiators were cold.
I closed 2 of the 3 returns and ran the boiler.
As the open return got hot, i confirmed that the supply got hot. Then I went to the radiator on each floor to confirm that they got hot and to verify each line.
Now when I got to the 3rd fl line, the return got hot, but the supply did NOT! I'm thinking that the return got hot from "back flow" (for lack of a better term) from the boiler. I'm going to let it cool and purge the 3rd fl and see what happens.
The pressure was at 20 psi before I fired the boiler and went up to 25 psi.
Could the air in the line prevent the supply side from getting hot?
And if I successfully purge the line and get cold water I can rule out an obstruction, yes?
I came back home to a cool boiler. All supplies & returns were cool to the touch and all radiators were cold.
I closed 2 of the 3 returns and ran the boiler.
As the open return got hot, i confirmed that the supply got hot. Then I went to the radiator on each floor to confirm that they got hot and to verify each line.
Now when I got to the 3rd fl line, the return got hot, but the supply did NOT! I'm thinking that the return got hot from "back flow" (for lack of a better term) from the boiler. I'm going to let it cool and purge the 3rd fl and see what happens.
The pressure was at 20 psi before I fired the boiler and went up to 25 psi.
Could the air in the line prevent the supply side from getting hot?
And if I successfully purge the line and get cold water I can rule out an obstruction, yes?
#53
03-06-15, 04:43 PM
No luck!
When attempting to purge the 3rd fl line I had to empty ~25 gallons of water. and the disturbing part is that the 2nd fl line got colder that the 3rd fl!
Going to have to call someone in.
In my untrained opinion, the obstruction is on the 3rd fl supply side at the boiler.
Thanks for all of the help trying to figure this situation out.
When attempting to purge the 3rd fl line I had to empty ~25 gallons of water. and the disturbing part is that the 2nd fl line got colder that the 3rd fl!
Going to have to call someone in.
In my untrained opinion, the obstruction is on the 3rd fl supply side at the boiler.
Thanks for all of the help trying to figure this situation out.
#54
03-06-15, 06:43 PM
F,
I thought you had baseboard heat but you said you checked all rads. What do you have because they would be piped differently.
It almost sounds as if you are shot circuiting that 3rd floor. In other words your supply water for that floor is somehow returning back to the return line without going to the 3rd floor. For lack of a better term you may have a cross connection. You may need a check valve in that system somewhere.
I ran into this once before. Too long for this column but it will drive you nuts.
Good Luck,
I thought you had baseboard heat but you said you checked all rads. What do you have because they would be piped differently.
It almost sounds as if you are shot circuiting that 3rd floor. In other words your supply water for that floor is somehow returning back to the return line without going to the 3rd floor. For lack of a better term you may have a cross connection. You may need a check valve in that system somewhere.
I ran into this once before. Too long for this column but it will drive you nuts.
Good Luck,
#55
03-06-15, 07:24 PM
I thought you had baseboard heat but you said you checked all rads. What do you have because they would be piped differently.
It almost sounds as if you are shot circuiting that 3rd floor. In other words your supply water for that floor is somehow returning back to the return line without going to the 3rd floor.
Go figure.
#59
03-08-15, 11:02 AM
FixerB,
From your pictures I can see the bent stop bar, it is part of the handle or slides over the valve steam.
Could you identify what floor goes with what return valve (left to right is fine, 1st,2nd,3rd floor.)
Yes they only go a 1/4 turn. But the one in the middle just keeps turning. That's what makes me think it's bad. The "stop bar" is bent, thus not stopping it.
Could you identify what floor goes with what return valve (left to right is fine, 1st,2nd,3rd floor.)
#60
03-08-15, 02:56 PM
Heatworm,
I've been visually lining up to the stop bar!
Left to right, 3rd, 2nd, 1st.
I determined that by operating each line individually and phisically going to see which line was getting hot on the floor itself.
The "stop bar" is bent, thus not stopping it.
From your pictures I can see the bent stop bar, it is part of the handle or slides over the valve steam.
From your pictures I can see the bent stop bar, it is part of the handle or slides over the valve steam.
Could you identify what floor goes with what return valve (left to right is fine, 1st,2nd,3rd floor.)
I determined that by operating each line individually and phisically going to see which line was getting hot on the floor itself.
#63
03-08-15, 05:31 PM
Ok, In the picture the 3rd floor valve does not look as if it is assembled the same as the other two valves, is that a optical illusion?
What pump was installed before this one was replaced?
Was it a three piece?
Was it a three piece?
Last edited by FixerB; 03-08-15 at 06:14 PM.
#66
03-10-15, 12:29 PM
F,
Possibly a foolish question but the pump is going in the right direction.Arrow pointing down.
Possibly a foolish question but the pump is going in the right direction.Arrow pointing down.
I will double check but I'm comfortable saying that it was installed correct.
#67
03-18-15, 09:21 AM
Hi Gents, I'm back! 
Still having the same issue. I was just so frustrated that I left it alone for a few days.
@spott
I checked & the arrow is pointing down. So the pump is installed correct.
@NJT
Yes it was working fine prior to the pump being changed. But I've had the problem a few years ago. But it was resolved by purging the line.
The weather was nice for a few days and I was hoping I could not worry about it until I had the $ to get the whole system evaluated and repaired as necessary. Plus I'm looking to have some of the fins moved from inside walls to under the windows.
I purged the line again and the supply in the boiler room got hot...
But about 25 ft away, just before the line starts to rise, it's cold...
And I've still heard the "flushing" sound in the line on the 3rd fl. I'm thinking that this "flushing" sound says that there is air in the line, but it's not blocked. Does that make sense?
Another thing that I've noticed and am wondering if it could have any effect on the line, is there is a line to a radiator in the basement.
It's tied into the 1st fl supply...
but the 3rd fl return...
Still having the same issue. I was just so frustrated that I left it alone for a few days.
@spott
Possibly a foolish question but the pump is going in the right direction.Arrow pointing down.
@NJT
And it worked properly before the pump was changed?
The weather was nice for a few days and I was hoping I could not worry about it until I had the $ to get the whole system evaluated and repaired as necessary. Plus I'm looking to have some of the fins moved from inside walls to under the windows.
I purged the line again and the supply in the boiler room got hot...
But about 25 ft away, just before the line starts to rise, it's cold...
And I've still heard the "flushing" sound in the line on the 3rd fl. I'm thinking that this "flushing" sound says that there is air in the line, but it's not blocked. Does that make sense?
Another thing that I've noticed and am wondering if it could have any effect on the line, is there is a line to a radiator in the basement.
It's tied into the 1st fl supply...
but the 3rd fl return...
#68
03-18-15, 10:42 AM
And there's that 'cross connection' that I believe Spott mentioned way back.
So what seems to be happening is that when you purge the 3rd floor zone, you are not flowing through the zone, but only that one cross connected radiator.
Is there (hopefully) a valve to shut off that radiator?
Not reading back, but memory tells me that you said when you purge the 3rd floor zone, that the 1st floor supply got hot? Well, this is why...
So what seems to be happening is that when you purge the 3rd floor zone, you are not flowing through the zone, but only that one cross connected radiator.
Is there (hopefully) a valve to shut off that radiator?
Not reading back, but memory tells me that you said when you purge the 3rd floor zone, that the 1st floor supply got hot? Well, this is why...
#69
03-18-15, 03:54 PM
Is there (hopefully) a valve to shut off that radiator?
There are valves on the supply & return side of the basement radiator.
you said when you purge the 3rd floor zone, that the 1st floor supply got hot? Well, this is why...
#70
03-18-15, 03:58 PM
OK, close one or both of the valves on the basement zone and repurge the upstairs zone.
Hydronics seldom makes sense!
Either someone closed the basement rad valves when they purged last, or they got lucky.
Makes sense. But what doesn't, is why it was working before changing the pump!
Either someone closed the basement rad valves when they purged last, or they got lucky.
#71
03-19-15, 10:25 AM
OK, close one or both of the valves on the basement zone and repurge the upstairs zone
:HF2: Thank you so much for your help Gents!
Now I can relax, make it thru the rest of this cold weather and address my heating system in the summer.
I will get the lines routed properly, but what do you think will happen if I open the valves on the basement zone??
