Bleed air from an older design system - with only an upper and lower valve

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  #1  
Old 03-15-15, 08:44 PM
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Bleed air from an older design system - with only an upper and lower valve

New to the forum, so please excuse if this has been listed.

My mother-in-law's home was built in 1964 with hot water heating system. Each room has the small radiator fin type heaters, some with the bleeding screw off fitting.

System has a 12 psi intake valve and two hand valves. That's it. There is no mechanical switch, bypass, or thermal system that I can see.

One valve (low) placed at low point of tubing, second valve (upper) placed near the ceiling directly above heater and lower valve, but tubing exists above the upper valve.

To purge I turn off the pump, then open the lower valve until the water runs at fairly high rate, then close that valve.

Then open upper valve until the water runs free, then close the valve. But upper valve allows only a small amount of water to exit, basically a trickle that does stop. At that point return system to operation.

Does work, but gurgling occurs after a couple of weeks and requires redone.

I did notice that with the pump running and upper and lower valves cycled, then water flows same as with pump off, but still noise.

But, if run pump, open upper valve, and cycle furnace, then air exits from upper hose, with noise. This seems to imply an internal thermal valve that opens flow to heat the rooms.

Nonetheless, still issue with gurgling and water noises.

Therefore, how to correct or minimize this issue?

Grateful, and with best regards,
John
 
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  #2  
Old 03-16-15, 05:47 AM
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Please take pictures of the system, far enough away so we can see the piping configuration and post them up here.
 
  #3  
Old 03-16-15, 08:19 AM
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J,
Ditto on the pics but also pics of the piping.
What you call fin type heaters are I believe convectors. These onvectors are generally installed with a monoflo or two pipe system and cannot be bled from the basement but by each individual vent on the convector itself.
If that is the case then the bleeding is different than that of a series loop.
Pressurize your boiler to as close to 30psi without relief valve going off and then bleed each convector individually making sure the pressure does not drop to below 20psi.
The object is to bleed your entire system without fresh water being introduced which brings air back in.
Once you have bled the system, drain remaining water until you reach 15psi on the gauge.
Start the boiler and test.
Always bleed your system with the boiler and the pump off.
As you bleed off the air the pressure will drop so watch the gauge and if it gets down to about 22psi or so and your still bleeding add some water to bring pressure back up until done.
When done air will be gone and since the feed valve is factory set to 12psi no more water will enter the system to bring air unless you have a leak or other problem.
Good Luck,
 
  #4  
Old 03-17-15, 02:21 PM
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Gentlemen,
Thank you for the reply, and sorry for delay.

I will forward pictures ASAP.

The system does not have any gauges whatsoever. Only an upper valve and lower valve (that can be opened and closed), a pump that can be turned on and off, and a water intake valve that can be opened and closed.

The pressure regulator is set at 12 psi, with no gauges.

A bit of history: My Father-in-law took care of this, but passed away last fall. So, no one knows how to do this.

John
 
  #5  
Old 03-17-15, 02:30 PM
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  #6  
Old 03-20-15, 09:15 PM
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I have attached pictures showing current system. House has a basement with single floor above, no second floor. Estimate sq-ft at 1500.

First shows the upper valve. Note there are copper pipes above this valve.

Attachment 48238

Second shows lower valve directly below the pump. Water regulator fixed at 12 psi. No gauges. The two valves are visually aligned with the pump.

Attachment 48239

Third shows heating fin assembly. This uses screw off cap. so far only have found one such vent.

Attachment 48240

Learned system may have been purged by running water out of lower valve until no bubbles, then close valve. Then open upper valve and run water then close valve. At that point purge air from cooling fins.

But, I tried this and no water exits the upper valve.

System heats house, but gurgling doesn't sound good.

An interesting point: the noise seems to be in corner of the house, for other rooms are quiet. But, I don't see a bleeder, and was quieter until recently.

This type of heating is uncommon in this area. No one really knows of it, let alone an older system.

So, confused on how fix.

Thank you, and with best regards,
John
 
  #7  
Old 03-21-15, 12:24 AM
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Your photo links are invalid.
 
  #8  
Old 03-21-15, 07:03 AM
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I have ask administrator for assistance.

John
 
  #9  
Old 03-21-15, 12:04 PM
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I changed files to zip format and resending thread.

Still, problem with pictures. Awaiting admin help

john
 
Attached Files
File Type: zip
lower valve.zip (32.7 KB, 32 views)
File Type: zip
upper valve.zip (40.9 KB, 35 views)
File Type: zip
heater fin.zip (30.6 KB, 46 views)

Last edited by juanpablo; 03-21-15 at 12:18 PM. Reason: cannot open pictures
  #10  
Old 03-23-15, 06:16 AM
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Hi John,

I don't know why you are having trouble loading the pictures.

I've looked at the zip files and those pictures are too small to see any details.

Please try to load higher resolution pictures.

zip files are not the best option because most people will not want to download them to their computer to view them.
 
  #11  
Old 03-24-15, 07:50 AM
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Trying images again in JPEG format, less than 50K:

I have attached pictures showing current system. House has a basement with single floor above, no second floor. Estimate sq-ft at 1500.

First shows the upper valve. Note there are copper pipes above this valve.

Name:  Heater1.JPG
Views: 238
Size:  44.3 KB

Second shows lower valve directly below the pump. Water regulator fixed at 12 psi. Gauge is below expansion tank. The upper and lower valves are visually aligned with the pump.

Name:  heater2.JPG
Views: 269
Size:  36.1 KB

Third shows heating fin assembly. This uses screw off cap. so far only have found one such vent.

Name:  heater3.JPG
Views: 227
Size:  34.1 KB



Learned system may have been purged by running water out of lower valve until no bubbles, then close valve. Then open upper valve and run water then close valve. At that point purge air from cooling fins.

But, I tried this and no water exits the upper valve.

System heats house, but gurgling doesn't sound good.

An interesting point: the noise seems to be in corner of the house, for other rooms are quiet. But, I don't see a bleeder, and was quieter until recently.

This type of heating is uncommon in this area. No one really knows of it, let alone an older system.

So, confused on how fix.

Thank you, and with best regards,
John
 
  #12  
Old 03-24-15, 08:01 AM
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NJT:
My thread system now shows pictures. Hopefully this will work.
Thank you,
John
 
  #13  
Old 03-24-15, 09:55 AM
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Hi John, yes, the pictures do show up, but my old eyes can't make out any detail in them, sorry.

Do you have or can you take HIGH resolution photos?

If so, set up a free account at Photo and image hosting, free photo galleries, photo editing and upload the pictures there. Come back here and post a link to your PUBLIC photo album.
 
  #14  
Old 03-24-15, 12:49 PM
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Ok, here goes again......... these are at higher resolution

I have attached pictures showing current system. House has a basement with single floor above, no second floor. Estimate sq-ft at 1500.

First shows the upper valve. Note there are copper pipes above this valve.

Name:  heater1.1.jpg
Views: 490
Size:  49.7 KB

Second shows lower valve directly below the pump. Water regulator fixed at 12 psi. Gauge is below expansion tank. The upper and lower valves are visually aligned with the pump.

Name:  heater 1.2.jpg
Views: 511
Size:  35.6 KB

Third shows heating fin assembly. This uses screw off cap. so far only have found one such vent. A single pipe system.

Name:  heater 1.3.jpg
Views: 568
Size:  34.5 KB


Learned system may have been purged by running water out of lower valve until no bubbles, then close valve. Then open upper valve and run water then close valve. At that point purge air from cooling fins.

But, I tried this and no water exits the upper valve.

System heats house, but gurgling doesn't sound good.

An interesting point: the noise seems to be in corner of the house, for other rooms are quiet. But, I don't see a bleeder, and was quieter until recently.

This type of heating is uncommon in this area. No one really knows of it, let alone an older system.

So, confused on how fix.

Thank
 
  #15  
Old 03-24-15, 03:59 PM
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OK, that's a bit better...

Gauge is below expansion tank.
And what are the readings on the gauge?
 
  #16  
Old 03-24-15, 09:31 PM
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The gauge has two needles.

One shows 22 psi. the other reads zero.
 
  #17  
Old 03-25-15, 07:35 AM
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Well, that sounds as if the gauge is bad...

You need to know what the pressure is in the system without having to question if the gauge is good or bad... a KNOWN GOOD GAUGE ... in order to continue.

Read this:

http://www.doityourself.com/forum/bo...ure-gauge.html
 
  #18  
Old 03-25-15, 05:21 PM
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NJT,

Will take a couple of days to test. Will forward results.

John
 
  #19  
Old 03-29-15, 12:50 PM
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Purchased a 0-30 psi gauge and created assembly that connects to valves.

With pump running attached gauge to each valve.

Attached to upper valve and opened valve slowly. Reading is 12 psi.

Attached to lower valve and opened valve slowly. Reading pegged at 30 psi.

Then redid upper valve to make sure gauge was not damaged, and same pressure as before--12 psi.

System regulator is set at 12 psi.

How best to proceed?
John
 
  #20  
Old 03-29-15, 02:29 PM
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Do again with pump NOT running.

It seems physically impossible that you have 30 at one valve and 12 at another.
 
  #21  
Old 03-29-15, 08:48 PM
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Thank you for your help.

Will take a couple of days to redo testing.

I'll get a higher rated gauge so as to see what pressures actually are with pump on and off at both upper and lower valves.

System has an air separator. The separator top has a valve identical to that of a car tire valve. I pressed it, but didn't notice any noise or water.

System has an expansion tank, listed at 12 psi. Expansion tank is horizontal mounted with separator down line.

Attachment shows water input valve, regulator, and separator.


Name:  IMG_0567.jpg
Views: 276
Size:  42.2 KB

As I redo pressure testing will also include expansion tank and pump photo. John
 

Last edited by juanpablo; 03-29-15 at 08:59 PM. Reason: add detail
  #22  
Old 03-30-15, 05:12 AM
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Hi John,

Is it possible that the valve you were seeing 30PSI + on was a domestic water line?
 
  #23  
Old 03-31-15, 07:32 AM
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A previous photo shows position of the lower valve, directly under the pump. I'm most certain that line was hot, nonetheless, I'll double check water line routing.

Also, will create a sketch of water line system.

John
 
  #24  
Old 04-06-15, 06:05 PM
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Rechecked pressures. Upper valve with pump on at 8 psi, with pump off 11 psi.

Lower valve with pump on at 13 psi, with pump off at 12 psi.

Have attached flow line sketch from water input valve to pump. Note the lower valve is directly below the pump. The upper valve is visually in line with the pump, but tubing layout is not known. But, the upper valve is below several water lines. Therefore, is it correct to layout the water heating system with the upper valve below the entire floor heating coils ?

Name:  water line 1.1.jpg
Views: 517
Size:  20.3 KB

Reviewing the house I have only found one bleeder cap. I may adapt a "T" that can allow me to purge the air into a bucket, rather than onto the floor.

John
 

Last edited by juanpablo; 04-06-15 at 06:24 PM.
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