Water line to boiler leaking


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Old 07-12-15, 08:52 AM
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Water line to boiler leaking

I have a leak in the fresh water input to my boiler. The input comes through a needle valve, and then immediately feeds into the backflow preventer. The connection on the boiler side of the needle valve is no longer holding water.
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I have a couple questions:
1) Aside from making sure it works, does it matter how the shut off and backflow preventer are connected? I can't make good sense of what the copper is doing coming from the needle valve and going into the backflow preventer. If I need to reproduce it, then I need some assistance in how the connection is being made. If the specifics are not that important, and I just need a shut-off and the preventer, then I can work that out. Does it have to be a needle valve? Is a needle valve best for this usage?

2) This is an old system. I'm not sure how old, but it was old when I bought this house in 1998. If it ain't broke, I don't see a need to fix it, but do I need to look at replacing the backflow preventer? (Ignore the mouth-agape doofus in the background.)
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3) From the backflow preventer, the line feeds to a pressure reducing valve. Should I be doing something with this part?
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4) Depending upon how this goes, and what parts I can get at a home improvement warehouse versus what I have to get from a plumbing supply store (tomorrow...), is there any reason I should not just install a new shutoff valve in the line? (This is overkill depending upon the answer to question 1.) I forgot to mention that when the water to the house is on, I'm leaking a couple gallons/day, so it looks like the needle valve is potentially also shot.
Thanks,
Dan
 
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Old 07-12-15, 09:07 AM
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I can't make good sense of what the copper is doing coming from the needle valve and going into the backflow preventer.
The water service comes to the boiler. It goes thru a service valve first so that you can service the boiler components without shutting the rest of the house off.

Connecting from the valve to the back flow preventer makes the most sense.
Change the shutoff valve to a ball valve.

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Old 07-12-15, 09:21 AM
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Are you sure it's not as simple as the union connection to the BFP leaking and the water running back down the pipe to make it appear that the valve is leaking?

That big nut on the BFP has a FLAT WASHER underneath it, being compressed against to flat faces.

A 3/4" "meter washer" is the right size for that, check a REAL plumbing supply store and tell them that's what you need if it appears that's where it's actually leaking from.

Get TWO, replace them both. You'll need big wrenches... hold the BFP nut stationary, tighten the other. It takes a little OOMPH to get them tight enough to not leak.

In fact, if you have the wrenches, try just tightening the nut up first. You might get lucky!

What do you mean by "needle valve" ? Are you sure that's not a GATE VALVE?

Can you take a wider angle shot to show us the pipe leading into the valve?
 
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Old 07-12-15, 10:41 AM
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Thanks very much for the replies.

Are you sure it's not as simple as the union connection to the BFP leaking and the water running back down the pipe to make it appear that the valve is leaking?
The leak is coming from the connection to the BFP, and I can actually move the valve side independently from the BFG side. The movement occurs (and the water originates) from the area pointed to in yellow:
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This is part of my confusion. Obviously the connection to the gate valve is threaded, but I can't tell how that transitions to the "big nut" assembly on the BFP.

That big nut on the BFP has a FLAT WASHER underneath it, being compressed against to flat faces.

A 3/4" "meter washer" is the right size for that, check a REAL plumbing supply store and tell them that's what you need if it appears that's where it's actually leaking from.

Get TWO, replace them both. You'll need big wrenches... hold the BFP nut stationary, tighten the other. It takes a little OOMPH to get them tight enough to not leak.

In fact, if you have the wrenches, try just tightening the nut up first. You might get lucky!
Two BIG crescent wrenches are on the list for the home improvement store. I'll try to tighten it, but I fear that the threaded pipe coming from the valve to the BFP has effectively broken.

What do you mean by "needle valve" ? Are you sure that's not a GATE VALVE?
My very handy father-in-law called it that the first time he looked at it with me a number of years ago, and the label stuck. I just looked up the part number (Stockham B-110), and see it referred to as a gate valve.

Can you take a wider angle shot to show us the pipe leading into the valve?
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Old 07-12-15, 11:44 AM
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Hello..

Is there another valve before this device? Take a pic if so. Take a side view of each valve..

[ATTACH=CONFIG]53137[/ATTACH]


That BFP is threaded with a nipple to the threaded valve. Being loose is odd but may be corroded...

It can be repaired but you must do it systematically.

Once we see the valves we can guide you further...
 
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Old 07-12-15, 12:09 PM
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Is there another valve before this device? Take a pic if so. Take a side view of each valve..
From the house water line, there is a T junction to feed into this system. The line feeds over into the gate valve (Stockham B-110):
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From the gate valve, it feeds to the BFP:
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out of the BFP, there's about a foot of copper pipe feeding into the reducing valve.

Hopefully this captures the info you're requesting-
 
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Old 07-12-15, 01:04 PM
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Best would be to shut the water down to the house and replace it all...

That red handle valve being a gate can break. And often break shut..

I would get new valve.. threaded ball style
Install one on the boiler side.. Threaded also


Youll need to solder.. Can you solder?

And repipe the whole thing from valve to valve... IMO get a new BFP fill valve combo. It will minimize labor..





Or shut the gate valve, and if it holds loosen the union on BF preventer and turn that whole thing out of the valve... After you do that youll know more.

Let us know...
 
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Old 07-12-15, 03:42 PM
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Thanks again for your help!

Two BIG crescent wrenches later, I have the gate valve removed. I loosened the BFP nut on the gate side, and in the process, ended up breaking what was left of the pipe between the gate and BFP. Here's a pic of the removed gate valve, you can see the corrosion:
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The BFP input from the gate valve looks similar:
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I picked up a couple different pieces (caps/ball valve) at the warehouse since I was not sure what I might need. The ball valve fit fine, and so I have the water back on; this time without leaks!

Yes, I can solder.

I like your suggestion of getting a combo part, so I'll plan to head over to the plumbing supply store tomorrow and hopefully pick up a part. Luckily I have time if they have to order it.

Are these systems designed to have the gate valve open all the time? I've always had mine closed except when adjusting water in the system.

Do you think I should do anything with the reducing valve, or should it be ok?

I'm going to go ahead and replace some o-rings on my Taco pumps while the system is empty. I've got one that leaks a little as the system warms up or cools down.
 
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Old 07-12-15, 04:01 PM
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Are these systems designed to have the gate valve open all the time? I've always had mine closed except when adjusting water in the system.
Thats a big debate. I leave mine open. But im on a well.. Ill try to find a good artical regarding this for you..

Do you think I should do anything with the reducing valve, or should it be ok?
If you psi in the boiler was good then why change it right? But IMO get the combo. Put new in. Looks like you need a new BFP anyway as that nipple broke in the flange right?
 
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Old 07-12-15, 04:21 PM
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I'm planning to replace the gate and BFP, but in my system, the reducer is a separate piece. Sounds like I'm confused. I thought the combo you suggested covered the gate valve and BFP. Can you clarify?

Thanks again-
 
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Old 07-12-15, 04:26 PM
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The combo is a BFP and a fill valve. The fill valve is this device...

[ATTACH=CONFIG]53163[/ATTACH]

You should install two of these valves
. One before and after the combo...


 
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Old 07-12-15, 10:40 PM
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Aha! fill valve != gate valve.

Last, I hope, question. Does it matter what kind of valves I get to go before and after the BFP fill valve?
 
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Old 07-13-15, 12:12 AM
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As in my pic ball valve is best......................
 
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Old 07-13-15, 02:46 PM
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Ditto the ball valves.

I would however recommend a BRONZE pressure reducing valve such as the one that you have, the B&G FB-38, over the cast iron Watts 1156.
 

Last edited by NJT; 07-13-15 at 06:58 PM.
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Old 07-13-15, 05:28 PM
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the B&G FB-38, over the cast iron Watts 1156.
??? Ummmm AFAIK the watts have always been bronze.... Id rather have that then brass..

Where do you see they are cast troop?

B and G always have failures in the field from my experience with that flip handle eliminating the rod/plunger...


Watts 1/2 in. Bronze Pressure FPT x Sweat Boiler Fill Valve and Backflow Preventer-B911S 1/2 - The Home Depot

http://media.wattswater.com/ES-1156F.pdf
 
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Old 07-13-15, 06:56 PM
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I wrote BRASS, but meant BRONZE. I edited it.

The 1156 models are CI.

http://www.supplyhouse.com/Watts-038...FUWRHwodxN4GSw

(note that it's PAINTED tan)

The B1156 models are bronze.

(which the one in the pic you posted IS bronze...)

I should have been more clearer... and pointed out that the 1156 comes in both flavors.

So, yeah, 1156 is OK IMHO as long as you get a B model.

But they have no removable strainer... which the FB-38 has.
 
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Old 07-13-15, 08:10 PM
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So, yeah, 1156 is OK IMHO as long as you get a B model.

But they have no removable strainer... which the FB-38 has.
The 1156 has a stainless steel strainer FYI.... The new models are integrated.....



The strainer screen should be serviced at least twice
a year.
This series is a new development for standard capacity domes-
tic water regulation service. It has special unitized construction
which consists of the seat, disc and stem assembly, and strainer
screen all together in one unit for complete replacement
maintenance.
 
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Old 07-14-15, 05:07 AM
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The strainer screen should be serviced at least twice a year.
Yeahbut...

You need to take the thing apart to get to that screen. Who's gonna do that? Nobody.

Repair kit is available, but almost equal to cost of new valve.

The FB-38 has that nut on the bottom to access the screen, eazy peazy.
 
 

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