Zone valve wiring or another issue ?

Reply

  #41  
Old 10-28-15, 07:16 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: usa
Posts: 32
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
ok, makes sense, i will keep them at there original resolution next time. 2500x3500 I think so they will be just what ya need
 
Sponsored Links
  #42  
Old 10-28-15, 07:18 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 3 Votes on 2 Posts
Something is very screwy with that wiring.

Looking at the pics, I see that LINE VOLTAGE also appears to be going to the zone valve all the way to the right, and yes, I see the white cable coming down to that valve.

What terminals are those wires in the white cable connected to?

Like I said, something is very weirdly screwy with this setup.

I wonder if the old system was zoned with pumps and those zone valves originally activated zone pumps?

The way this SHOULD BE wired is this:

You should have TWO 40VA transformers for 5 valves. You have room on that other j box to add another transformer... OR you could replace the single 40 VA job with a single 75VA job and run all the valves off one transformer.

These transformers and associated thermostats should be wired to the MOTOR terminals of the zone valves.

The ENDSWITCHES on the zone valves should all be wired in PARALLEL and then that single pair of wires from the R and G in the boiler should be wired to the endswitches.

There should be no Line Voltage on the endswitches... you obviously aren't running pumps with them. If it were mine, I would rip out all that extraneous line voltage wiring and wire the endswitches in parallel to the R and G on the boiler.
 
  #43  
Old 10-28-15, 07:24 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 3 Votes on 2 Posts
Maybe this will help:



Ignore all the other stuff, just focus on the zone valve wiring to the boiler

If you use two transformers for the zone valves (in my opinion you should) then draw in the two other zone valves powered the same way with another transformer.

BUT, the ENDSWITCHES will all still be in parallel and on to the boiler.
 
  #44  
Old 10-28-15, 07:25 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: usa
Posts: 32
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
WHERE on the boiler relay? What terminals?
the fan relay has 2 black, one white, and one yellow lead. connect line voltage to the black and white lead for the realy transformer

So are you saying that ONLY THAT ONE zone valve fires the boiler and starts the circulator?
as of right now that is correct njt

pins G&R are on the transformer that is part of the fan relay, then it runs to a ZV and would be hooked to TH & TH/TR on ZV
 
  #45  
Old 10-28-15, 07:32 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 3 Votes on 2 Posts
as of right now that is correct njt
Right... what I though.

I don't know how this worked before, or ever.


pins G&R are on the transformer that is part of the fan relay, then it runs to a ZV and would be hooked to TH & TH/TR on ZV
That's wrong...

And probably (definitely, in my opinion) why you are having issues.

You've got that transformer on the wall that powers your zone valves, and the transformer inside the boiler BACKFEEDING each other!

There must be NO CONNECTION from the R and G in the boiler to go anywhere near the TH, TR, TH/TR on the zone valves.

In fact, you are LUCKY that you have not yet burned up one or both of those transformers, or the zone valve, or the thermostat.
 
  #46  
Old 10-28-15, 07:38 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 3 Votes on 2 Posts
I believe that the line voltage wiring to the zone valve endswitches has been ABANDONED by someone in the past.

I think that if you were to open up those J boxes, what you would find is that at least one of the wires from the zone valve endswitches has been CAPPED OFF in a dead end inside the j box.

The black and white that travel through to the boiler are not going through the endswitches, but rather traveling right on by.

There obviously is still SOMETHING connected to them, but it is doing NOTHING at all...

Here is what I would like you to do in order that you understand what I'm telling you is correct...

Turn off the power and disconnect the two line voltage wires over on that last valve. PUT WIRE NUTS on the ends of the wires. Let them hang in a safe manner.

Remove that 2 wire cable from R and G in the boiler from where it is on the zone valve and connect it to the endswitch on that last zone valve.

Turn the power back on to the boiler.

Turn up the thermostat associated with that last zone valve.

When zone valve opens, watch boiler fire up and run with no trouble.
 
  #47  
Old 10-28-15, 07:40 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 3 Votes on 2 Posts
OK, I've had another thought.......

Those valves MIGHT be running your circulator pump.

Find the pump and follow the 120VAC line from that pump back to it's destination.

To WHERE is that pump wired?
 
  #48  
Old 10-28-15, 07:44 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: usa
Posts: 32
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
njt that is how I expected it to work, exactly how you explain it but with this not being familiar to me I lacked the confidence to tear it all apart and start over. I will have to look into what it will take to do this b4 the weather really turns. thanks a lot.

I wonder if the old system was zoned with pumps and those zone valves originally activated zone pumps?
as far as I know it had a larger bell & gossett single pump and then was changed to the grundfos around the time the boiler was replaced.

my only other concern now would be my original problem that when I hook up that white wire to a zv it cuts the voltage to 9v, still unexplained and with out that the 2 down stairs stats wont control boiler or zv's.
 

Last edited by NJT; 10-29-15 at 06:53 AM.
  #49  
Old 10-28-15, 07:51 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: usa
Posts: 32
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
the white wire runs to the 2 zv's to the far right in the picture, those valves are isolated from the other three and the external transformer. i already thought that was the case a while ago and saw that cross phasing or back feed cant happen, they are not connected in anyway
 
  #50  
Old 10-28-15, 07:55 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: usa
Posts: 32
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I will try this tomorrow njt, I have to turn in now, will keep ya posted
 
  #51  
Old 10-28-15, 07:59 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: usa
Posts: 32
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
To WHERE is that pump wired?
pump comes directly from fan realy leads black and yellow. no other source
 

Last edited by NJT; 10-29-15 at 06:52 AM.
  #52  
Old 10-29-15, 06:58 AM
Geochurchi's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 4,123
Received 22 Votes on 22 Posts
Sorry PJ ,it should have been Blk&Yel on the Honeywell fan center.definetly best to rip that all out and start new with Low voltage on the end switches although they are rated to control pumps etc.
Geo
 
  #53  
Old 10-29-15, 07:07 AM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 3 Votes on 2 Posts
OK... I have a handle on what's going on now... It's wired wrong.

I forgot that you said you are trying to power those two valves on the right from the transformer in the boiler.

You can't do that with only two wires from the R G terminals. It won't work.

If you want to power those two zone valves from the transformer in the boiler you need THREE wires going from the boiler to the valves... and special wiring...

I don't know how this ever worked...

and the other three valves will still not call the boiler to fire... unless you rip out that Line Voltage wiring and re-do the endswitches so that they fire the boiler.

Still, there are too many unknowns. We NEED to know where those Line Voltage wires go... what they do...
 
  #54  
Old 10-29-15, 07:16 AM
Geochurchi's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 4,123
Received 22 Votes on 22 Posts
Are either of those zones the ones that are giving you the problem you started this thread for?where does that white wire originate from and where is it landed?
Geo
 
  #55  
Old 10-29-15, 07:49 AM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 3 Votes on 2 Posts
Geo, read back a post or three... that 'white wire' which is actually a 2 wire thermostat cable, is explained to/from.
 
  #56  
Old 10-29-15, 10:46 AM
Geochurchi's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 4,123
Received 22 Votes on 22 Posts
To many posts so little time,can we assume that white cable is the 24volt feed to the 2 ZV's if so where are the Tstats connected?
 
  #57  
Old 10-29-15, 11:25 AM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 3 Votes on 2 Posts
,can we assume that white cable is the 24volt feed to the 2 ZV's
No, we can't assume anything at this point.

That cable is not coming from the correct terminals in the boiler to be a 24V feed.
 
  #58  
Old 11-01-15, 05:08 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: usa
Posts: 32
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
some larger pics for njt. been a bit too busy to get to them until now. thx for your help and hope these help you.









 
  #59  
Old 11-01-15, 05:20 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: usa
Posts: 32
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
njt, im now wondering if the stats im using would have anything to do with this issue. im using Honeywell th1100dh 1004. i just read that with zv u have to have a spst stat. the stats im using are heat only, so I believe these should work?? just a thought that you may be able confirm.

I also tried the procedure you wanted me try and the boiler did nothing.

another question, if you manually open a valve does that close the end switch?

also the boiler ran fine with the line voltage disconnected from the last valve, like I said from what I understand that can all be taken out because it doing nothing from my understanding. if the end switch was being used to run circ then it would have to then go to the pump. as I stated and the pics will tell the line voltage terminates at es and goes nowhere else. the more I learn about this system, the more it makes complete nonsense and im starting to see why you feel that somewhere in the past the system had to be completely different or someone didn't have a clue and spent a lot of time running line voltage everywhere for no reason at all.

great article here too - http://www.achrnews.com/articles/860...er-zone-valves

can we assume that white cable is the 24volt feed to the 2 ZV's
that's is exactly what its doing in its present state. with the new pics you will be able to trace that wire from control transformer to the far right zv.
 

Last edited by clb59; 11-01-15 at 05:48 PM.
  #60  
Old 11-01-15, 05:27 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 3 Votes on 2 Posts
We still have no idea where those 120VAC lines from the endswitches are going though...

It needs to be understood what they are doing, what they are powering... you need to open those j boxes and trace that wiring out.

I'm telling you this for certain:

That white cable with the red and white wires going to TH/TR on the two zone valves is wrong. It is the reason that relay is chattering. It's wrong. But I can't recommend anything until I know where those line voltage wires on the endswitch are going.
 
  #61  
Old 11-01-15, 05:41 PM
PJmax's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Northern NJ - USA
Posts: 54,227
Received 479 Votes on 449 Posts
Chris..... when you host pictures at PB. After you download them..... click on the picture at PB. To the right you'll see the coding box. Left click on the IMG box. You'll see the coding info inside the box disappear and copied will appear. Come directly back to your thread here. Right click and select paste. The entire PB link and the command to resize a remote hosted picture are listed in your thread.

It will show in your thread as a long line of nonsense. When you submit your post...... that string is converted to a picture. A picture that when clicked on will open in full size. Leave one blank line between pics for clarity.
 
  #62  
Old 11-01-15, 07:15 PM
Geochurchi's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 4,123
Received 22 Votes on 22 Posts
It sure would be easier to shut the power off, remove the linevoltage from the end switches and get totally out of the picture,install a 75VA transformer in place of what is there or use 2 40 VA if you prefer just make sure they are isolated for the thermostats,the Tstat wires would remain as is and all the end switches would be tied together and one 18/2 run to the Honeywell control center terminals R&G as shown in post 43
Just my opinion
Geo
 
  #63  
Old 11-02-15, 05:28 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: usa
Posts: 32
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
hey pjmax, I did exactly what you said in your post sans leaving a space in between the pics. pb has img and img thumb. i used img and they posted just as you see. may you be thinking of img thumb?? the drop down is underneath the image for me in pb as well not to the right, not sure that matters?
 
  #64  
Old 11-02-15, 06:16 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: usa
Posts: 32
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
from post 21,

thx njt, yes I did measure and its 120v ac. when u get time to look at the pics u will see all the zone valves, rt above zv u see the emt leading to the service switch, the right 4" junction box. 2 end sw get line voltage from that point. the line voltage continues via emt to second (left) junction box to power the other TRansformer and inside, the line voltage is all scotch locked together leading to the 3 remaining zv. that's it they go no further. that's had me stumped for quite some time as i feel that serves no purpose. then the emt goes back up the wall above the left jb and into the control/relay on boiler.

I understand the end switches are used for switching, that is why this whole set up makes no sense. the line voltage (12-2 black and white) simply goes to the end switch terminals and goes no further from there. im having trouble simply explaining this due to lack of understanding!! lol

whole point is that if the line voltage were controlling anything else there would have to be out feed leading from the end switch??

im going to get rid of the line voltage and will run 24v to the endswitches and see where that gets me.
 
  #65  
Old 11-02-15, 06:24 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: usa
Posts: 32
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
geo I think this is the way im going to proceed, one question I have though, the far right 2 zv are brand new and I do not here the end switch click when manually opening the valve...doesn't seem to be closing the micro switch??

if that's the case then this set up will not work for me unless one of the other 3 zv/stats are calling for heat.

if I hook the end switches up to the g/r out puts on the control transformer wouldn't that be backfeeding in between the 2 transformers? I just though of this, your thoughts
 
  #66  
Old 11-03-15, 01:56 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 3 Votes on 2 Posts
I do not here the end switch click when manually opening the valve...doesn't seem to be closing the micro switch??
Manually opening the valve will not activate the endswitch on Honeywell valves.
 
  #67  
Old 11-03-15, 01:57 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 3 Votes on 2 Posts
if I hook the end switches up to the g/r out puts on the control transformer wouldn't that be backfeeding in between the 2 transformers
No, the endswitches in the valves are ISOLATED from the other terminals.
 
  #68  
Old 11-03-15, 06:03 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: usa
Posts: 32
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
thx njt for the replys. so the end switch would be the make to close relay on fan center...thx again

i was out mowing the lawn and thinking about this thing and when i got to the basement wall where i need to do some grading A MEMORY HIT ME, hope this helps in some way.......the boiler used to be an oil fired boiler way back in the day!!
 
  #69  
Old 11-03-15, 07:04 PM
Geochurchi's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 4,123
Received 22 Votes on 22 Posts
The only thing you need to isolate is the transformers if you intend to use 2,which is a good idea,connect the 2 valves to the right to one and the others to a new a new transformer,let the transformer on the Honeywell control the boiler.
Geo
 
  #70  
Old 11-04-15, 06:57 AM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 3 Votes on 2 Posts
A MEMORY HIT ME, hope this helps in some way.......the boiler used to be an oil fired boiler way back in the day!!
I seem to recall a suggestion way early in the thread that the 120 wiring to the endswitches was a 'legacy' wiring job. And that's what it seems to be...

The only thing you need to isolate is the transformers if you intend to use 2,which is a good idea,connect the 2 valves to the right to one and the others to a new a new transformer,let the transformer on the Honeywell control the boiler
Right. Rip out that 120VAC legacy wiring. Leave the j box.

Leave the t'stat and transformer wiring to the left three valves alone.

Add a second 40VA transformer to that second j box which is now basically empty.

Run a 120VAC feed from the boiler service switch to the second transformer primary.

Wire the second transformer secondary to run the two valves on the right side.

Wire all of the endswitches in parallel and then on to the R and G terminals in the boiler.
 
  #71  
Old 11-04-15, 10:22 AM
Geochurchi's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 4,123
Received 22 Votes on 22 Posts
NJT, what exactly is a legacy wiring job? Never heard of it.
Geo
 
  #72  
Old 11-04-15, 12:57 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 3 Votes on 2 Posts
It's a 'legacy'... probably left over from the last century.

...a thing handed down by a predecessor.
 
  #73  
Old 11-05-15, 06:23 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: usa
Posts: 32
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I would like to say thank you for all the help and suggestions. I look forward to having my system working correctly soon and will let you know my results.
 
  #74  
Old 11-06-15, 06:17 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: usa
Posts: 32
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Done!! Now I have a sytem that I don't have to go to the basement to turn on and off!! Thanks again for all your help!

Chris
 
  #75  
Old 11-06-15, 07:29 PM
Geochurchi's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 4,123
Received 22 Votes on 22 Posts
It took a while, but nice job and thanks for letting us know the out come.
Geo
 
  #76  
Old 11-07-15, 07:43 AM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 3 Votes on 2 Posts
Good job!

No pics of finished job? We like pics!
 
  #77  
Old 11-08-15, 05:13 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: usa
Posts: 32
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
you bet geo, without your help I wouldn't have gotten any further, thanks again
 
  #78  
Old 11-08-15, 05:22 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: usa
Posts: 32
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
njt, thanks for hangin in there with me, I just quickly jumped all the wiring to the correct places. I bought new wire so I can make it all very neat and tidy but with the season change I have had to focus on the outside (now that my boiler is correct). I will for sure takes some pics when I have completed all the wiring neatly. thank you very much for your help, Im a happy man!
 
Reply

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
 
Ask a Question
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: