Zone valve wiring or another issue ?

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Old 10-25-15, 03:00 PM
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Zone valve wiring or another issue ?

So after gaining much knowledge from this forum I come across an issue I just cant solve on my own.

Have a burnham series 2 206nil-gei2 installed around 2004 with 5 zones.

I have an issue with the zone valve (5-8043f) to on board transformer connection.

Other 3 valves wired to external TR.

Everything is wired per schematic at valves and inside boiler, have gone through several times.

The issue is when I connect the on board TR from fan center to the first zone valve all I get is what sounds like the relay cycling very quickly but not closing.

When I hook the second valve up it runs fine so long as BOTH therms call for heat.

Measured volts at TR output points at this time is 9.08v. When no therms call for heat im getting 25.8v out of TR.

I have had to go through this entire system and after 40yrs of it not being repaired properly have gone through the expense of replacing just about everything component there is, learning as I go.

Im just wondering if there isn't something up stream in the safety switches that could be causing this issue.

I have check all the wiring to the therms as well. Any help would be gratly appreciated,

Chris.
 

Last edited by NJT; 10-28-15 at 03:17 PM.
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Old 10-25-15, 04:54 PM
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Hi Chris,

This is a NEW problem that has just developed?

The 40 years you mention, is that under your watch? Or is this a 'new to you' system?

So THREE valves run off the external transformer, and TWO valves are being powered by the transformer in the boiler control?

Those fan center transformers should not really be called upon to run zone valves in my opinion. In general they don't have the VA capacity to run zone valves AND the gas valve too.

Everything is wired per schematic at valves and inside boiler
Which schematic is that? The one in the manual for the boiler? It actually shows zone valves being powered by the internal transformer?

I'd like to see it if you can tell me where you found it.

Sounds like you own and know how to use multimeter?

Measured volts at TR output points at this time is 9.08v.
That's way wrong... this is while the relay is 'chattering'?

Can you show us some pics of what you're working on?
 
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Old 10-25-15, 05:49 PM
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Transformers have a Volt-amp rating. The transformer will output rated voltage until the load exceeds the rated amps. If load is increased beyond this point (amps increase), the output voltage goes lower until the increased heat shorts the transformer. Your solution is to use another external transformer to operate the 2 zone solenoids. Don't use the control board transformer to power the 2 zone solenoids. Maybe the existing external transformer has the capacity (volt-amp) to operate all 5 zone solenoids.
 
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Old 10-25-15, 06:00 PM
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Thanks for the input Bob,

Maybe the existing external transformer has the capacity (volt-amp) to operate all 5 zone solenoids.
That's sorta doubtful. The vast majority of 24VAC transformers are 40VA units and I personally would not run more than 3 valves on one. A lot of guys will wire more with the argument that all the valves won't call at the same time, but they CAN, so in my opinion it's best to spend the extra $20 on another transformer... cheap insurance.

The main reason that I don't care for running any zone valves from internal boiler controls is because if something happens and that transformer fries, it means NO HEAT because the boiler won't fire. And in general it's a more expensive and time consuming repair to have to replace the boiler control.

If an external transformer fails, it's a quick $20 fix. AND, there will still be heat if there is more than one transformer powering a group of valves. Even if there's only one transformer, the owner can always manually open the zone valves to get heat in an emergency.
 
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Old 10-26-15, 05:38 PM
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thx men

its a new to me sytem, and I am determined to get it back to its original working state and actually am on the way to hopefully making it better. I am 85% (hopefully) through a real mess of a system here.

the problem started after I replaced a 8043E that someone had installed previously, prob had it on the truck and used it. since the other 4 were F's i installed a new one. again this system was really boogered up.

the manual was found off the web from burnham and it states "if using more than 2 zv use an external tr for power. i guess if the gas valve is robbing too much from the tr then that may be the issue, but i figured a 50va could do the job. again just learning and yes i know how to use a voltmeter, wouldn't get far without it!!

if both stats call for heat the boiler fires up, but if one of the 2 therms isn't calling the relay chatters, the gas valve doesn't even come into play yet?? i even thought that there was a short between the stats or tied together but tested continuity and the wiring for stats is good and are separate.

i will work on getting pics.

wait till i (or u see via pics) that all my end switches have line voltage going to them. i would like to negate that and run them on 24v. I greatly appreciate your help in my success in this project.
 
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Old 10-26-15, 05:59 PM
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all my end switches have line voltage going to them.
You're kidding me. That's a pretty lame way to have wired them. They aren't designed for switching anything of consequence like a circulator pump..... even though they may be rated as such.
 
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Old 10-26-15, 06:02 PM
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Pjmax, I can't find the path to post pics, any help, I searched and couldn't find anything....and yes line to the switches, want an intermittent system when I'm done
 
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Old 10-26-15, 06:12 PM
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Here........ follow the instructions here. http://www.doityourself.com/forum/el...-pictures.html
 
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Old 10-26-15, 06:24 PM
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Thx, new to forum and kinda new to boilers
 
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Old 10-26-15, 06:29 PM
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I will have to try to get pics up tomorrow from computer, was hoping to download from my phone. Thx again all
 
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Old 10-26-15, 07:42 PM
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but i figured a 50va could do the job
If you're saying that the internal boiler transformer is a 50 VA unit, then it should be enough to power two zone valves. They usually aren't that many VA.

all my end switches have line voltage going to them
No... that can't be...
 
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Old 10-27-15, 03:21 PM
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i am working on getting pics up now but in the mean time, one the stats has to call for heat to get the boiler to fire. I tried to wire on zv for that reason and still did not work, that being said one will have to be wire to boiler control/fan relay for anything to work. ok, getting the pics so you can see the line voltage going to all the end switches.
 
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Old 10-27-15, 04:52 PM
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the img is not listed on photobucket at this time. I even changed the settings in pb to add img and img code but it would not come up as an option, will try again soon
 
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Old 10-27-15, 05:07 PM
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After you download your picture to PB you need to click on the picture itself and then the coding box should appear to the right.
 
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Old 10-28-15, 04:18 AM
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thx pjmax, well its morning, my computer seems to be cooperating so I should have pics up soon
 
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Old 10-28-15, 04:25 AM
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Old 10-28-15, 04:32 AM
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ok men, pics are up, this is gonna be great when u get to see this in living color!!! looking forward to see what u pros have to say about the set up circa 1978!!
 
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Old 10-28-15, 06:48 AM
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Just curious,why is there a fan center on a hot water boiler? Normally there is an aqua stat on the boiler that would control it and at least 1 circulator,is there one?
 
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Old 10-28-15, 10:18 AM
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from what I know geochurchi, the fan center is used to turn on the pump and it also is the starting point for all the safety proofs in the boiler. I do not have an aquastat just a high temp cut-off. in the second pic showing the relay, that is the high temp cut-off rt above. this the first boiler ive been around and am learning so that's what I know and could be wrong but there has been no other info that ive seen to tell me otherwise. as I have gained knowledge an aquastat with high AND low temp would be advantageous because the water may get a lil cool before re-firing.
 
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Old 10-28-15, 10:28 AM
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I'm at the day job now and can't spend lots of time reviewing the pics right now...

Chris, you said that there is LINE VOLTAGE at the zone valve endswitches? I see that there are white and black wires there, but did you actually MEASURE 120VAC there?

Where are those endswitch wires landing? where to they go?

Geo, an 'aquastat' has several things 'built in' to one chassis... water temp limits, relay to start burner and pumps and some other terminals for various purposes...

On this boiler, and almost all the Weil-McLain boilers, they opted to use these pieces individually... why, I can't say, but that's what they did.

The fan centers are nothing more than a transformer and a relay on one unit, while the temp limits are separate parts.
 
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Old 10-28-15, 10:47 AM
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thx njt, yes I did measure and its 110v. when u get time to look at the pics u will see all the zone valves, rt above zv u see the emt leading to the service switch, the right 4" junction box. 2 end sw get line voltage from that point. the line voltage continues via emt to second (left) junction box to power the other TRansformer and inside, the line voltage is all scotch locked together leading to the 3 remaining zv. that's it they go no further. that's had me stumped for quite some time as i feel that serves no purpose. then the emt goes back up the wall above the left jb and into the control/relay on boiler
 

Last edited by NJT; 10-28-15 at 02:38 PM.
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Old 10-28-15, 12:27 PM
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NJT, do you really think that the fan center was factory,I really doubt it,I have wired quite a few Burhams and never ran across that.
Geo
 
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Old 10-28-15, 12:57 PM
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Are the other 3 zones working?will the second zone operate by its self?whats going on with the taped up flex at valve 3 and the open conductors at valve 5 is that line voltage?
Geo
 
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Old 10-28-15, 02:49 PM
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NJT, do you really think that the fan center was factory,
I would say probably yes... but we don't know the model of the boiler, at least I don't see where it has been mentioned.

Chris said this was 40 years old, but it looks awful clean to me for that age... couldn't have been abused that bad, but he did say he's been working on it so maybe it got a coat of Turtle Wax too.

Chris, I'm afraid that for me (us) to understand the reason for the line voltage to the zone valves you would have to trace wires and draw a diagram of how it's wired.

There's no good reason that I can see for there to be line voltage going to those endswitches.

Follow the wire in this pic with the blue wirenuts on it... what terminals on the fan center?

And where does the other end go?



By the way Chris, since you are uploading to PB, feel free to upload higher resolution pics so we can blow them up for details...
 
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Old 10-28-15, 03:09 PM
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In post #1 the mdl# and mfg. is stated but I could not seem to find any info on it.
Geo
 
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Old 10-28-15, 03:13 PM
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Thanks Geo, I scanned to fast and missed it...

Should be this manual:

https://file.ac/Fd4U_K0YUlg/2012-09-...-io-manual.pdf

Wiring diagram on page 13

By the way, the terminal labeled "P" in the diagram is wrong, it is " R "
 
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Old 10-28-15, 03:19 PM
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And now I'm confused about something else too...

installed around 2004
Explains why it looks good.

after 40yrs of it not being repaired properly
But the math don't add up.
 
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Old 10-28-15, 03:21 PM
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PJ, if those are Honeywell valves their specs allow for circulators to be controlled by the end switches.

Geo
 
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Old 10-28-15, 03:35 PM
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So that fan center is actually factory,how is the deomestic hot water controlled?
Geo
 
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Old 10-28-15, 03:40 PM
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I don't believe that boiler has a domestic coil.
 
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Old 10-28-15, 04:09 PM
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It would appear that the end switches on the ZV would need to be parrelled with the Yellow and White wires going from the fan center to the circulator,if in fact they are Line voltage
This all started after you replaced the 8043 E with and F, can you isolate that zone and see if the if the situation clears up.have checked the Honeywell cut sheet on these valves?
Geo
 
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Old 10-28-15, 05:04 PM
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It would appear that the end switches on the ZV would need to be parrelled with the Yellow and White wires going from the fan center to the circulator,
Negative Geo.... that would be putting the switches directly across 120v.


Well.... we need some bigger pictures of the wiring.
The fan center is factory installed.
Heavens knows how the end switches are wired. If I had to hazard a guess I'd say the relay went bad on the fan center and someone creatively rewired.

A goal needs to be get the 120v off the end switches. As of right now.... you're going to need to trace it out completely.
 
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Old 10-28-15, 05:15 PM
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For all we know there could be another relay somewhere...
 
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Old 10-28-15, 05:39 PM
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do you really think that the fan center was factory
its factory, its in the manual
 
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Old 10-28-15, 05:43 PM
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Are the other 3 zones working?will the second zone operate by its self?whats going on with the taped up flex at valve 3 and the open conductors at valve 5 is that line voltage?
Geo
other 3 are workin fine, the tape is so if im fingering around in there I don't get zapped, again Line Voltage yes. im looking for those cpas to cover the end switch but hard to find as they have been discarded long ago

[moderator edited to spell out Line Voltage so it's not confused with the more common use of LV abbreviation being LOW Voltage]
 
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Old 10-28-15, 05:52 PM
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but hard to find
Not really... but it helps to have the part number from the Honeywell catalog!

803867A Conduit case and cover for use with the V8043F when the end switch is used in line voltage application.

Honeywell, Inc. 803867A Conduit Cover V8043F: Electronic Components: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

Cheaper, better shipping:

http://www.statesupply.com/hn1076

Better yet:

http://www.patriot-supply.com/search...03867A&button=


Chris, please let me know about that wire I asked about.
 
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Old 10-28-15, 06:05 PM
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since you are uploading to PB, feel free to upload higher resolution pics
thought 600x600 was the biggest the site would take??

to understand the reason for the line voltage to the zone valves
ok, but it simply comes from breaker panel to service switch through junctions and emt, end switches through flexible conduit and then to the boiler realy, that's it. I will get more pics for u guys as well

the 2-wire with the blue wire nuts goes from controller/relay TR, pins G&R out to the zone valve that you would like to control the boiler. it can be seen on the far right of the pic with the ZV's in it. from TR to ZV, no where else

the system was installed when the home was built in 1978, the boiler was replaced in 2003 or 2004 with the current unit burnham 206NIL-GEI2 manufacture date of 11/2003. I will break out the wax when im satisfied with the operation of the system, haha

no domestic coil, hopefully ive answered all your questions
 
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Old 10-28-15, 06:07 PM
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thought 600x600 was the biggest the site would take??
Something like that, but you didn't load them here, you only linked to them. You loaded to photobucket which doesn't have that limitation.
 
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Old 10-28-15, 06:12 PM
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Not really... but it helps to have the part number from the Honeywell catalog!
You bet njt, thx again, no more black tape soon.

Chris, please let me know about that wire I asked about
that white 2-wire with blue wire nuts simply goes from relay TR (pins G&R) to the far right ZV. that is going to be the wire from one of the stats to tell the boiler to fire from what I understand
 
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Old 10-28-15, 06:12 PM
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ok, but it simply comes from breaker panel to service switch through junctions and emt, end switches through flexible conduit and then to the boiler relay, that's it.
WHERE on the boiler relay? What terminals?

Do you mean that those zone valves are turning the AC POWER on and off to the boiler? If so, I don't see the point in that.

the 2-wire with the blue wire nuts goes from controller/relay TR, pins G&R out to the zone valve that you would like to control the boiler. it can be seen on the far right of the pic with the ZV's in it. from TR to ZV, no where else
So are you saying that ONLY THAT ONE zone valve fires the boiler and starts the circulator?

pins G&R out to the zone valve that you would like to control the boiler
Where on that zone valve? The endswitch?
 
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