Got a quote for a new boiler??

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  #81  
Old 01-19-16, 07:39 AM
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What is the question here, replacement or better efficiency?

Look at any data source on stack temp and efficiency. They go in opposite directions. Low temp = hi efficiency, Hi temp low efficiency. The issue with low is condensation at 133F. Easy to avoid condensing at 133F with low temp circulator cut off. Very low stack temps are reason for increased efficiency of condensing boilers

Boilers are heat exchangers where the basics are more thru put means less efficiency, i.e. fire at less gpm is more efficient. Since 85% of US boilers are twice as big as needed there is usually room to cut firing and keeping the place very warm.

Yes, you might have to change burner head and baffle but they cost less than $20.

Using degree days, oil consumption and burner run time it is easy to figure out actual btu load. Even with a new system over sized, under fired means more efficiency!!

I have 60 year old boiler rated at 1.8 gpm (pre retention head) that now fires at 0.80 gpm with stack temp around 350 F gross (280 F net) = ~85% efficiency, draft is .02 to .04 inches. AND it is much easier to clean than new ones, so efficiency stays high.

The question starting this thread should have been "How to improve boiler efficiency". One look at Bud9051 pictures shows oil style burner, no solenoid, uninsulated pipes etc
 

Last edited by doughess; 01-19-16 at 09:49 AM.
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  #82  
Old 01-19-16, 02:33 PM
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Ok, just received 4 quotes for different combinations of equipment and installation, we will get to those in a moment.
I posted I was going to talk to 2 other vendors, well one no longer services heating equipment, didn't ask why and the other I talked to this morning, didn't go well. Wanting another I have an appointment tomorrow morning with another, fingers crossed. This mornings meeting in his office we couldn't agree upon sizing, he doesn't do a heat loss, but based upon the pictures and sq footage he wanted to install a B5 Biasi, that's DOE 124,000. The discussion was friendly and I got him down to the B4 @ DOE 110,000 but he said he would not install his B3 at 67,000. I asked if an actual Manual J showed 55,000 if he would go down to the smaller unit and he doesn't believe in manual J calculations. A casual mention of price range for that size house and a complete installation was 8 to 9 thousand and I understand that was just talking, but I wasn't impressed and decided to not pursue other brands and options. On the plus side, he would definitely remove the copper jungle and build something all new.

Tomorrow will be an oil company that also installs and services and they are local. We will see.

As for the 4 quotes I received today, I just don't understand a company that sends out a contract that doesn't specify the work they plan. The two TRIO quotes do not specify which model. The Burnham does identify the UMPOIQ84TB but I don't have an explanation as to what the longer model number does or does not have. I have a description of an MPO-IQ84 but can find no reference to their number. At no point has he asked or stated which burner will be included.

The the rest of the quote just says piping, pumps, valves, expansion tank, electrical and miscellaneous. No certainty that it would include 3 circulators and 3 control valves and the difference in price between a complete installation and just sliding in a new boiler doesn't cover much.

Anyway, I have some sorting out to do, but he isn't impressing me. I really hope the next company has their act together.

So what control and burner options should I consider?

Bud
 
  #83  
Old 01-19-16, 03:48 PM
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This mornings meeting in his office we couldn't agree upon sizing, he doesn't do a heat loss, but based upon the pictures and sq footage he wanted to install a B5 Biasi, that's DOE 124,000. The discussion was friendly and I got him down to the B4 @ DOE 110,000 but he said he would not install his B3 at 67,000. I asked if an actual Manual J showed 55,000 if he would go down to the smaller unit and he doesn't believe in manual J calculations. A casual mention of price range for that size house and a complete installation was 8 to 9 thousand and I understand that was just talking, but I wasn't impressed and decided to not pursue other brands and options.
That guy is out of his mind IMO...

DOE 124k... LOLOLOLOLOLOL

Look here is the slant fin heat loss calc.. down load it and use it.. Its obsolete from SF site but sullivan still has it..

Contact Us - P.V. Sullivan Supply Co., Inc.

Also SF has a free mobile one now which works the same..


Heat Loss Calculator | Slant/Fin Boilers & Baseboard

Ive done a heat loss of my home with this calcultor. I have a 1200 sq ft home.

I came out to 27k btu .. Now do the math version 1200 sq ft x 25 btu per sq ft = 30k heat loss..

I will size my boiler to 30k more or less. Even though I have 45K of radiation in my home..

You............ 2200 sq ft = 55k btu.. ( Why would you need bigger then the smallest oil boilers offered???)


Listen just write a list what to ask... ( Or what to tell them you want...

1. what boiler and size? ( If they want to put bigger ask the reasoning)
2. do I need a liner?
3. Circs or zone valves? Where, for what, and why?
4. Can you rip all the piping out and mount new to wall? Show pics of my examples
5. Whats included in price.. Valves, circs/zone valves, exp tank, flow controls or flo checks in the circs, air seperator, fill valve, backflow preventor, low water cut off? MPO has this as a card add on. Gaurd dog LWCO may be cheaper.. ( Also get the outdoor rest card to save on the sholder months...
6. What indirect? ( I recommended the supor stor from HT products.. A low min 53K boiler is needed to top performance. Dont think you will find better out there.
7. whats the price?
8. Whats the warranty?
9. when can you start?

Also I would be looking for mechanical contractors in your area... or anyone that has pics of thier work that looks like what you want...


Now I did a search of your area.. For reference only the pic on this guys site looks promising.. see below.. ( ( Remember you can have anyone put in the boiler you want.. ( The extra 800 I bet was because that is what it will cost a contractor to get a burnham that his supply house dont sell.)
\

Example and reference only!!!!!!!!!!!

Bangor Gas | Maher Heating

If like down here in NJ the mechanical type guys are very good.. Almost union type work IMO.. ( Again reference only)

Eastern Maine Mechanical


This guy does nice work.. look at the Buderus GB142 Wall Hung Gas Boiler in Ellsworth here..

Maine Heating and Plumbing Services | Osborne's Plumbing and Heating located in Bucksport and Ellsworth Maine


If I was shopping thats how I would be looking...

Remember the boiler runs in the 2400 buck range. 1500 - 2000 for parts min.. at least 4 k without labor. Labor is different everywhere. but figure 150 an hour with helper. I figure 20 hours or 2 1/2 days = 3000.

7 k - 7500.. You want to spend less then look for basic oil boiler... Could take 1k off the price...

biasi b3 67k DOE.. About 1700 bucks

B-3 - Biasi B-3 - B-3 - 58,000 BTU Output Oil Boiler w/ Riello Burner

New Yorker 91 ... 80 DOE 1600 bucks..


CL3-140-PWL-GBWN - New Yorker CL3-140-PWL-GBWN - CL3-140 104,000 BTU Output, Cast Iron Water Boiler (Packaged)


There are many more..
 
  #84  
Old 01-19-16, 05:53 PM
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Thank you .
You would have had fun with this guy. Not sure he would have been comfortable, but he was certainly stuck in the past. Unfortunate, as they are a good sized organization.

I saw one of the contractors you listed if right in my town, in fact I have breakfast right across the street from his home. I will talk to him, even though he appears to be newer and smaller. I was once as well and was very successful.

BTW, the TRIO and the Burnham both come from FW Webb I believe and they are right in town. Doubt there is any extra cost for obtaining the Burnham. The problem is more his math and I will get that straightened out.

Our 3 current circulators are all Taco 007, F4, F5, and ZF5-5.
The three control valves are all White Rogers. Type 1311-102 and two F19-0097. Hard to see and read but I think that is right.

Ran out of time so didn't get it mapped out, but will be there again tomorrow.

I have noted your list and will see what they offer.

Bud
 
  #85  
Old 01-20-16, 05:17 AM
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Bud, despite his creative spelling I strongly endorse most of what Mike has been writing. I also prefer the W-R 1311 zone valves as they are motorized open, stop, and motorized closed. No springs and no "heat" motors. The valve design itself (a rotating sleeve) is balanced and therefore uses little power to open or close. Its only downside is that it requires a special thermostat or a zone panel that has single pole DOUBLE throw relays, a small price to pay for what I consider to be the Cadillac of zone valves.

Where I differ from Mike is the issue of piping primary/secondary. You want to maintain the optimal flow rate through the boiler regardless of the number of zones that are calling for heat at any particular time. Using the variable speed (variable flow) pump on the zone side along with the 1311 zone valves will allow for optimal flow rates regardless of the number of zones calling at any particular time and having a dedicated pump on the boiler circuit ensures the proper flow through the boiler for optimal heat transfer.


A little about my own house. Although I have a forced air system I also have the problem of a too large furnace. Originally the home was built with a 60k BTU/hr. input furnace in 1987. When it came time to replace the furnace I wanted one with two stages and a variable speed blower. The smallest furnace meeting those specifications was rated at 70k BTU/hr or about 17% larger than the original. Having lived in the house for several years I KNEW the original was oversized but I simply couldn't get anything smaller and still have the two-stage burner and variable speed blower. There's a lot more to this story that I will omit but the bottom line is that unless I move the thermostat more than five degrees (used to be three, more later) it NEVER goes into the second stage operation. Since first stage is about 60% of total that means I am for all practical purposes running a 42k BTU/hr furnace. I recently re-programmed the thermostat widening the differential before the second stage comes on and I have not suffered one little bit. Even a few weeks ago when we had a cold snap I could maintain the desired indoor temperature (70) and the furnace was cycling. I think (didn't actually time it) that during the coldest weather I might have been firing about two-thirds of the time. My house is about 1540 square feet, all on one level and really in need of some insulation upgrades but even with that my requirements are about 28k BTU/hr input or 22,400 BTU delivered. And the three cats that love to play the in and out game doesn't make it any better. Of course living in an area where temperatures rarely drop below freezing helps, or maybe it makes it even harder to get a properly sized furnace.

Bottom line: DO NOT allow any salesman to sell you a bigger boiler than you need. Remember the TRIO is a Biasi design and while I don't generally care for cast iron boilers the MPO-IQ84 is rated at 74k BTU/hr and while not necessarily recommended I think it could be downfired slightly by using a 0.5 nozzle rather than the recommended 0.6. NJT has an MPO and he really likes it. Ideally you want a boiler that is around 50k input which would give you around 43,500 output in a three-pass design.
 
  #86  
Old 01-20-16, 10:03 AM
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OK, had another meeting today.
Note, I may not be replying to all of the suggestions, but be sure I am reading them
This company did much better. Not only do they do a manual J, but in regards to my concerns that we don't know if the current plumbing is as it should be, he will bring along a rep from the engineering company who does the actual design. Sounds expensive, but at least it is a very good approach.

He likes Biasi and Pensotti. I haven't heard the Pensotti being mentioned and it doesn't seem to offer as small of a unit.

Biasi has a smaller unit about the same as the MPO84, their B3, and it lists a gas option. Although we will be going with oil, the gas option might imply it could be converted 5 or 10 years down the road if NG reaches her doorstep.

He likes the Superstor or Amtrol for indirect, but his casual price of $2,000 for the Superstor was way high, but it was just a casual mention. On the negative side, he was pushing a larger boiler to be able to handle the indirect without bringing the heating system for the house off-line for too long. I'm not concerned about the recovery time as the house has shown it holds very well and with improvements it will do much better.

Still have to finish sorting out the recent bids from the original oil company and will share once I have eliminated any mistakes. But at this point I like the MPO84, even without the gas option. But I may still give the last company a chance to submit a bit.

Although I like getting a M-J, at this point we aren't going to be changing any zones and between the 25 btu per sq ft ball park number and the crude energy calculations I have, small is better and I hear that being strongly suggested.

Let me get to those numbers as I'm anxious to see a bottom line.

Much appreciated.
Bud
 
  #87  
Old 01-20-16, 03:34 PM
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I sorted out the numbers and for comparison I am looking at 2 boiler brands and two installation options. This is just to see how he is figuring prices.

The two install options are
1. A complete installation, boiler, indirect, and all circulators and control valves as needed. That list was not detailed, but it should be the same for each boiler.
2. A basic installation with just the boiler, the indirect, and the added circulator.

The two boilers are the MPO84 and the TRIO P3. Here are the quotes.

MPO84 Basic: $6596 Full install: $7619 a difference of $1023
TRIO P3 Basic: $6198 Full install: $6427 a difference of $229

Now, between these two I would prefer the Burnham and would go with the basic installation because the current 3 circulators are taco and the three control valves are W/R and I don't see a problem leaving them there other than the ugly copper jungle. That jungle isn't posing an operational problem and changing it will have little effect on energy use.

However, it he were to reduce the price on the TRIO going from full to basic the same amount it dropped on the Burnham going from a full to a basic ($1200) then the Basic TRIO P3 would cost $5400 and even with the 91,000 btu TRIO I would be hard presses to see that much extra in fuel costs.

So, without other quotes, we would be looking at the MPO84 with an indirect at $6596.
Or the TRIO P3 with the same indirect for about $5400, assuming I can get the above mentioned reduction.

The last step could be to go with electric hot water. I have one early quote from him on the P4 where I asked for prices with and without an indirect and the price dropped $674.

Subtract that from either option and I would be hard pressed to do a lot better and I could install the electric water heater before they install the boiler.

Your thoughts?
Bud
 
  #88  
Old 01-21-16, 05:10 AM
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I just sent an email for another quote.
As a note, I'm not really that concerned about the price as what I have is not that bad. However, I'm confused by his pricing scheme and his contracts do not provide the necessary details for any piece of paper I would advise anyone to sign. I want to provide my daughter with a list of options Low to high with an explanation as to what the differences are. I don't have that yet and he has tried 3 times. The next guy also offers Biasi which is available in a smaller unit. I will see.

Bud
 
  #89  
Old 01-21-16, 01:27 PM
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I like the biasi.. I would certainly go with the b3 @ 67k btu DOE...

http://s3.supplyhouse.com/product_fi...B3-B9-Sub1.pdf



He likes the Superstor or Amtrol for indirect, but his casual price of $2,000 for the Superstor was way high, but it was just a casual mention. On the negative side, he was pushing a larger boiler to be able to handle the indirect without bringing the heating system for the house off-line for too long. I'm not concerned about the recovery time as the house has shown it holds very well and with improvements it will do much better.
Not a fan of amtrol indirects.. Issues of the past with them put a bad taste in my mouth..

The super stor is the contender that I recommend. Not the stainless steel unit.. 2000 bucks he will be making a large profit off it and you!!!! 660 bucks see below link...


http://www.htproducts.com/superstor-...terheater.html

Many features of the super stor I like.

Glass lined compared to amtrol poly lined.
ceramic- coated smooth surface coil ,, amtrol dont tell you. etc...

And as stated I dont know if this guys prices are still valid. But 660 bucks you cant beat it.. I would probably drive to go pick it up... LOL...


http://bostonheatingsupply.com/super...terheater.aspx


You dont size the boiler bigger for the indirect... You will have , or should have installed the taco panel and put the indirect on the priority zone.. When the indirect calls for heat the circs for the heat loops shut off.

Works like this..

http://s3.supplyhouse.com/product_fi...-4-Install.pdf

http://www.supplyhouse.com/Taco-ZVC4...-with-Priority

Priority Operation:
When zone 4 is switched to the priority setting
and is actuated, all other zones will stop operation until zone 4 is sat-
isfied. When zone 4 is not switched to priority, all zones will operate
independently.
Note:
When a circulator is used on the priority zone
instead of a zone valve, jumper 3 and 4 of the priority zone.
Priority Protection Operation:
When the priority zone calls con-
tinuously for more than one hour, power is returned to all the
other zones, allowing each zone to function independently. Once
the priority zone is satisfied, the control's auto-reset is activated
and the priority zone is again allowed to have priority for up to one
hour starting from when it calls next.
 

Last edited by lawrosa; 01-21-16 at 01:56 PM.
  #90  
Old 01-27-16, 03:56 PM
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Mike, today I got to sit down with one of the contractors you pointed out to go over what I want. he is a 2 man operation and lives not far from me. Very nice and looks like a good person/company to deal with. I'm really hoping he comes in with a reasonable price, and I suspect he will.

Everything is taking time, but in the end this should be a good solution.

I'll let you know what he comes up with for a quote.

I certainly do appreciate the help from all here, I've learned a lot.

Bud
 
  #91  
Old 01-27-16, 04:28 PM
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Yes let us know.. Glad its working out for you...
 
  #92  
Old 02-04-16, 07:23 AM
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I'm back and have to concede this process is wearing me down.
At this point I'm going for sliding in a new boiler and leaving the copper jungle as is. I have spent some time following the copper and it is what you would expect for a system that was expanded form an original smaller design, but it works well and making it pretty at this point will add little to the objective.

I asked for a quote on a Biasi B3 and he came back saying his distributor does not supply that brand. The quote was for a Pensotti DK2-3 with a Riello burner at 63,000 BTU. I'm in the process of reading about it so just posting to get any thoughts.

I'll have to reply to get the rest of the details, but it looks good if there is no major concern with that make/model.

Thanks
Bud
 
  #93  
Old 02-04-16, 12:48 PM
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I had pulled a data sheet off of the internet which said the ratings for the oil vs gas were different and the number he quoted matched the gas. He said it was oil. I solved that question by stopping over to the main office for Pensotti, which happens to be about 8 miles from my house. Small family rum business that's been in business for a very long time. I like them.

With a net rating of 63K the boiler is small enough for my needs and it can be converted to NG if and when. Yes, I would have liked to get the copper jungle replaced, but a new boiler will make the daughter happy. He forgot to include the cost of an indirect so he is getting that.

Any red flags,
Bud
 
  #94  
Old 02-04-16, 02:42 PM
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Looks like a good boiler with 3 pass design and big swing door for cleaning..

http://www.pensotti-pna.com/DK2%20Br...20REV20115.pdf


The think I am worried about is the hydrolevel hydrostat aquastat..

There has been an influx of issues with them here in the forums from several posters. I once leaned towrds boilers with this control but now am not so fond of them..

For one there is no way to adjust the differential. Its preset and they dont tell you..

Second one here on the forums went into runaway mode never shutting the boiler off on high limit.
Two others read 30f difference from the aquastat in relation to the boiler gauge...

Seems to me there are engineering issues going on with this control...

Just my 2 cents.. I will try to find the links...
 
  #95  
Old 02-04-16, 02:47 PM
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  #96  
Old 02-04-16, 05:14 PM
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Thanks Mike, I'm digesting the reading and learning about smart hydrostats. My thoughts are, that smart control is being used on more than one make of boiler. I would think any design problems related to things like a boiler not turning off would have been addressed. I sure would hate to have to make a secondary high level cutoff for a brand new unit. But I will ask.

Bud
 
  #97  
Old 02-10-16, 10:35 AM
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This is certainly not a process one would want to go through in the dead of winter with a dead boiler.

Had a walk through with the new boiler guy, the one who lives locally. His first quote was for the boiler without an indirect, although I had asked for with and without. Anyway, it was $3900. That was for a Pensotti DK2-3 with an IBR rating of 63K. It would also include a new pressure tank and pressure relief but he hasn't generated a full list of what is or is not included. I would be reusing the 3 circulators and the 3 control valves as currently configured.

But, he was supposed to have had the price for the above boiler with an indirect when we met today. Apparently the quote he got from his supplier was not as he had requested so he did not have a new number. SO I ASKED for a ballpark number. He hesitated but finally said somewhere around $1,600 to $1,700. I said that was really high and if it came in too high we would just go with the Basic boiler quote and I would install an electric water heater. Should have a new number by the weekend for the boiler and the indirect.

Fingers crossed.
Bud
 
  #98  
Old 02-10-16, 04:00 PM
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Did you consider with the MPO-IQ you get pre-purge for an added 5-10% fuel savings, good self diagnostic from controls, lower return temps if you ever decide to do OD reset.
Also being a 3 pass boiler it will be quieter.
I would also suggest a Carlin burner, easy setup and quieter than a Beckett with a cover or a Riello.
 
  #99  
Old 02-10-16, 05:50 PM
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Hi rbeck,
If the first guy had his ducks lined up I probably would have gone with the MPO84, but I just couldn't get consistent prices out of him and he kept saying one thing and then sending a contract for us to sign that failed to mention what his email stated. I just got tired of his run around. Best I can tell, he would have been $2K more for what I'm looking at now with the Pensotti.

I did some searching and his casual estimate for adding an indirect (around $1,600 to $1,700) seems much closer to reality than the first companies $674 added cost. Since I know that is not right, they must have inflated the cost of the boiler from the start. Anyway, they were annoying and that isn't how you sell things.

What I have is reasonable, maybe not perfect, but much better than what is currently there. We will probably go with an electric water heater and as cash flow improved down the road consider an indirect. But a 40 gal electric will be plenty for their low use.

I will post the final decision, if we get one after this round.

All of the support has been much appreciated.

Bud
 
  #100  
Old 02-11-16, 05:45 AM
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Well, I did some searching and number crunching and an indirect installed up here in Maine isn't going to happen for under $1,200 and a better unit will be several hundred more. So I got out the pencil and paper to see what an electric is going to cost per month vs an indirect running off of a more efficient boiler. I'll spare you the details, but 40 gallons of 35 water heated to 135 @ $0.17 per KW would cost about $1.60 per tank, I'll assume a tank per day. The boiler with the indirect would be about $0.50 per tank.

Considering just the differential cost between the indirect and the electric water heater installations, the payback looks like about 3 years. Add to this, the number of people living there may increase, which wouldn't bother the heat load, but would affect the hot water. Then, the payback would be under 2 years. I'll be waiting for the final price of the indirect and most likely go that direction, especially since the boiler price is very reasonable.

As a note, I'm really ticked off at the first dealer and his games with pricing. His approach fell apart when I started asking for different combinations and some details. His pricing was arbitrary and inconsistent and meant to be deceiving, much like the way car dealers handle a trade in. Maybe that's the way sales have to be handled??

Bud
 
  #101  
Old 02-11-16, 11:21 AM
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Maybe that's the way sales have to be handled??
No, they don't HAVE to be that way but far too often that IS the way that it is done.

Fudge a little high here, fudge a little low there, be vague about some itemizations and make up a total price that allows you to make some money and yet doesn't scare off the customer.

It is all too common and I'll state up front that I detest the practice. Just give me the honest prices and let me make my decision. I understand that businesses need to make a profit and that they have significant "overhead" costs that must be amortized. On the other hand, I don't want you making a ton of money off of me over and above what would normally be spread over several customers. I'll give the honest salesman my business every day of the week. The guy that tries to hide the true costs with a bunch of crap, he's going to be looking for someone else.
 
  #102  
Old 02-11-16, 01:06 PM
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This is not a guy vs gal issue, although I have run into that all too often, it's about being fair and honest to all customers. As I get older I'm moving into another group that is often taken advantage of. And you are right, the bad guy here is out and the good guy has a chance to be servicing this unit for many years.

Bud
 
  #103  
Old 02-11-16, 04:17 PM
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Not sure how you got a "guy vs gal issue" from my post but it does bring up the ugly fact that certain classes of people ARE routinely taken advantage of (or at least the attempt is made by the sleazy salespeople) in many instances. At the top of the list of those targeted are women, followed by older people and then the disabled and finally the socially unacceptable which class includes the homeless and obese as well as ethnic minorities and a whole lot of others.

I thoroughly detest the practice. I once took my daddy to buy a new chair. The salesman all but ignored my daddy, asking ME what kind of chair he wanted and other questions. I told the salesman, "Why don't you ask HIM? He's right here. Just because he uses a wheelchair for mobility doesn't mean he is deaf or can't talk!"
 
  #104  
Old 02-11-16, 04:45 PM
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I've had too many cases of sales people offering my wife and daughters bad deals and bad advice, thus the guy vs gal comment. Then my FIL drifted into early Alzheimers and it started happening to him. The probability it will get worse for me is 100%.

I'm really looking forward to closing this deal on the boiler, hopefully before spring, but getting one small enough takes pushing. If not this winter, then next I will be able to get some first hand experience with it operating near design. Never had one sized that way.

Bud
 
  #105  
Old 02-11-16, 07:03 PM
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Now that you picked one of many let's hope the cheapest price does not lead to improperly installed unit as it seems the norm with the cheapest price. Air separator, pumps on supply, no automatic air vents on returns, proper piping etc. Post pictures when job is done.
 
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Old 02-12-16, 07:11 AM
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Price shopping, not really. If the first guy had sized the boiler correctly and not been so evasive with his pricing we would have already installed the Burnham MPO84 with an indirect. I realize the Pensotti is not as well distributed as others, but their NA headquarters is just 10 miles away and I suspect we will get any support we need if needed. Actually excited to see this little box in action.

As for the contractor, he has lots of experience, owns his own business (8 years), and hasn't thrown up any red flags, as if I could really tell. I will definitely get pictures once installed and will want to consider improving that copper jungle which we are not disturbing at this time. A good summer project.

Bud
 
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Old 02-13-16, 01:35 PM
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boiler

Good luck Bud. Sounds like you sure did your homework with this boiler replacement job. I'm sure it will turn out well. I've recently had to hire some contractors to work on my house and I've had some similar situations. It really helps to do your homework ahead of time, so you know when a potential contractor is trying to "get rich" on your job. The great folks on these DIY forums have been a great resource for me, as they have been for you. I Look forward to hearing about the new boiler install! Steve
 
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Old 02-13-16, 02:45 PM
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Thanks. Having been a contractor myself I may be overly sensitive to the lack of details provided with the first quotes I got and it is a shame as that company is one of the bigger providers in our area. I hate to think of all of the systems they have installed, oversized and over priced due to their tactics. But I am excited about getting my final package on paper so we can get into the queue. May be spring before we fire this thing up.

Bud
 
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Old 02-13-16, 03:25 PM
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IMO I would by the boiler, indirect, pumps, controls, zone valves etc then call a plumber to install in all...

Why have them right up 20% or more on everything..
 
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Old 02-13-16, 04:09 PM
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LOL, My daughter would shoot me. At my house I could do that, but I would still want someone to be responsible for the boiler. Warranties are tough enough when you are dealing with the business you purchased the product from.

Actually, I'm getting interested in baseboard hot water for my house. Currently a poor forced hot air system, running pex for baseboard would be a piece of cake. But that would be next year.

Thanks again,
Bud
 
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Old 02-22-16, 09:53 AM
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Well, we finally got the prices and I'm not sure why the indirect is so high. $3,900 for the Pensotti boiler with a new expansion tank and a couple of other small items, but leaving the copper jungle as is with existing circulators and control valves. That looks good. But the indirect quote is $2,300 for a BoilerMate, WH42Z including an additional circulator and installation. Quote said it had a "knob for control" so I assume it has a knob for setting the temperature??

Talked to my wife, and they will go with the just the boiler and we will slide in an electric water heater. The house just doesn't use a lot of hot water. Since electric WHs don't last forever, when it comes time to replace it we can review the decision again. Or, I will keep my eyes open for a good deal and install it later. Once warm weather arrives I will be taking a look at the copper jungle to see if it is something I can improve so will learn more about the plumbing.

Estimated payback on that price for the indirect is 10 years and a lot can change in that much time. The big improvement will be the new boiler and I really thank all who helped, despite me being a slow learner.

Bud
 
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Old 02-22-16, 12:44 PM
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OK keep us updated.. .
 
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Old 04-11-16, 08:55 AM
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Time to kick this back to the top. After a few slips, the boiler and indirect as supposed to be delivered Wed, with install on Wed or Thursday. Fingers crossed. Of course the temps will be in the 60's but at least it will be done .

New grandson on the 8th, mom and grandson doing great.

Bud
 
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Old 04-14-16, 07:24 PM
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They set the boiler and indirect in place today and will cut over the pipes tomorrow. I'll get some pictures of the final installation.

Bud
 
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Old 04-14-16, 07:55 PM
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Yes please thank you... .
 
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Old 04-18-16, 07:01 PM
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They didn't finish Friday so waited until today to do the cut-over. When I was there at three 2 guys were working feverishly to get the new one turned on, but the place was the typical "work in progress" mess so I didn't interfere with my camera. They texted me about 5pm and said it was running and they will be back at 9am to clean up and catch any needed details.

There is plenty of room so the new unit went to the right of the old, so when the old was slid out of the way it really opened things up. The plumbing looks more open, but I will have to compare it to the old pictures to see what was removed. I never did figure out what was going where, but should be easier now.

I will get pictures, but sure glad it is finally in, fingers crossed.
Bud
 
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Old 01-05-17, 09:14 AM
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Believe it or not, I will have an update coming. Contractor is due back next week to see if we can finally get this system working right, it hasn't since it was installed. The good news is, it has forced me (now that I have time available) to figure out the old system and then how the new one needed to be installed. His failure was, he never took the time to figure out the old. Whether that was something he should have done or not we will discuss.

Later,
Bud
 
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Old 01-05-17, 02:47 PM
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I didn't want to leave this hanging so here is a review of where we stand.

I had thought all had concluded fairly well and except for the excessive amount of time we finally had a reasonably sized system with an indirect water heater, the savings should be good, I thought. But warmer weather slipped in and all was assumed to be working, some heat, and we had hot water. My daughter was not in the mood for me to be poking and prodding and possibly finding something more to spend money on, so I left it alone and became very busy over the summer with other projects.

In late summer someone said, why is the heat on in the family room, it was closer to ac time than heat. Stat was down and I got a call saying that every time the boiler came on for hot water the heat came on in the FR. Hmmm!

So the call went in to the boiler guy and his tech showed up. He mumbled about it needing another part and left. A week went by and no call so I asked the owner to take a look. Basically the same thing but he disconnected the circulator for the family room so it would no longer get heat. He took pictures and left.

Several weeks and it was getting colder at times so I emailed him again. He stopped by when I couldn't make it to the house and reconnected the FR circulator, but no resolution.

Since I now had/have the time I decided to figure out the existing system and see if a wiring diagram would help to identify the problem. Make that plural, problems.

I was careful to not alter what is there to avoid any finger pointing as to who caused the problem, but here is what I found wrong.
1. No attempt to activate priority.
2. The FR issue was not just "when the water heater called", that circulator is powered on 24/7 with no control valve. That stat goes directly to TT on the boiler.
3. Other than the FR zone being wired directly to the boiler and the switch relay for the indirect water heater there is no other connection to activate that boiler. If one of the orphaned zones calls for heat it has to wait for a call from the indirect or the FR to activate the boiler. I watched the temperature on the boiler struggle to keep up with the water heater while having to satisfy a couple of other zones which had been waiting for the boiler.

There are other smaller issues but I now feel confident that I can fix those and all of the above if he doesn't, but I'm anxious to hear how he responds. The solution will be a new SR501 in front of the 24/7 circulator and the power to the three system circulators will be rerouted through the SR501 that controls the indirect. The changes will give us priority and better control of the circulators. As a note, the 24/7 circulator used to get power from a box on the front of the old boiler which must have applied power only as needed. The old boiler was always hot so that circulator couldn't have been running 24/7.

Once we have it running I will strip out the rat's nest of wiring that grew over the years with two major additions and relocate it to a board on the wall with terminal strips and labels.

It is amazing how well the house has been doing with the system working as poorly as it is. I'm sure that once we get it going with this round of repairs that my daughter will once again banish me from the basement, but I will get pictures this time.

Later,
Bud
 
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