Fixing new boiler installation

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  #41  
Old 01-25-17, 10:57 AM
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Skip, the 504 is/was the relay being used it that referenced thread, I don't have one. But, if it becomes necessary I have no objections to getting one.

Yes, the boiler we have has a 3250 plus. At present it is doing nothing more than turning the boiler on and off, maybe some other protection functions which I will eventually need to learn about, but "learning" is the key word.

Features like bringing the boiler up to a minimum temp before circulation starts, or shifting to a higher temperature with a call for hot water, those and maybe some more seem to be features that should be active. But one step at a time.

Once I better understand how everything works then I'll shift to the plumbing. But that will be a summer project.

Have you seen any schematics for what is inside a 3250? The US distributor for the Pensotti boiler is located about 10 miles from me and I have already visited them once, nice people, family business. Since they use the 3250 I'm reasonably certain they know what is inside. Whether they can or will share, I can ask, if that info isn't already available somewhere.

Bud
 
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  #42  
Old 01-25-17, 01:12 PM
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Hydrostat manual if you do not have one already..

Note: Those hydrostats are problematic so keep an eye out.. They often malfunction from my readings..

http://hydrolevel.com/wp-content/upl...nst.-final.pdf
 
  #43  
Old 01-25-17, 01:52 PM
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Mike, I recall the issues with the 3250 being discussed about a year ago so have that on my list to review. From memory there was a way to add additional safety measures. I briefly discussed this with the Pensotti distributor and he said those were old issues, but as long as the added measures don't infringe on the warranty then I might still want them. I'm being very careful to not do anything where this boiler guy can point a finger at me and say I'm at fault.

I have the book, but not what is behind the panel.

Bud
 
  #44  
Old 01-25-17, 02:20 PM
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Bud
If you go to SupplyHouse.com and search Hydrolevel 3250 and click on install instructions and you can scroll down and see the different wiring schematics but your book might have the same info.

Exactly what are you looking for and what do you want to do that it's not doing now.
 
  #45  
Old 01-25-17, 06:05 PM
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Well, for starters, what is behind ZC and ZR? From reading I've gathered that ZR goes hot (120v) when it gets a call from the indirect under priority and that may not be correct but that is the idea. What other settings determine this and is that voltage coming from a N/O set of contacts?

An internal schematic would answer all questions but it doesn't seem to be available. NJT commented that he might have to reverse engineer one and make his own drawing. If I had one on a bench I would do the same.

Due to my lack of experience it just makes me uncomfortable following a series of instructions connecting this to that. Before I do any playing I need to know what "this" and "that" are doing. I suspect it is all discrete logic with replays and strapping options. But there might be some electronics helping out. Part need to know and part curiosity.

More people are now sick at my daughters so my next visit will be awhile, it will give me time to read. At least most of the house is now under its own zone control, just the FR and it is probably the lowest priority and it will get heat if needed when any other zone calls.

Sorry for moving so slowly and a big thanks to all.

Bud
 
  #46  
Old 01-26-17, 01:49 PM
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Bud,
ZC & ZR stand for zone control & zone relay. What they are used for is to make your domestic hot water priority over your heat and were used mainly with boilers that had tankless heaters for domestic hot water.

For example, say your boiler was a warm start boiler and set at 160 & 180. Your boiler would maintain 160 all the time and the pump would shut off below that temp even if your stat was still calling for heat until the boiler temp came back up so you would always have enough hot water in the boiler for your tankless coil.

If you added a new zone with a pump like your FR you need to add another relay to control that pump. That is where the ZC & ZR terminals come in. By bringing power to the relay from those terminals you are utilizing your low limit control on the boiler.

If you do not use those terminals, if you are taking a shower when a call for heat comes from the new FR stat it will pull in the relay and activate the pump which will empty the boiler of hot water and the pump will not shut down when the water temp goes below the 160 like the original system pump does but will continue to run and your tankless coil is now sitting in a boiler of cold system water until it reheats and in the meantime you suddenly have a cold shower.

If you use the ZC & ZR terminals the relay will shut down the pump if the boiler temp drops below the low limit setting giving the domestic water priority and allows you to take that hot shower without interruption.

I hope this helps a little.

SKIP
 
  #47  
Old 01-27-17, 04:52 AM
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Hi Skip,
yes that is good information. I will be drawing out all of the electrical controls on my next visit there. From my pictures I don't understand how he has it wired. No need to guess as I can just doccument what is there. FF not letting me into this forum, had to use MSN. If you see a bright light in the sky, that is my computer going into orbit.

Thanks,
Bud
 
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Old 01-27-17, 11:18 AM
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Bud,
I had a hard time getting in myself last night and when I finally did it was working at a snails pace so I gave up so it might have been something with the sight. I'm so computer literate I'm lucky I can find the keys so it couldn't have been me. lol.
 
  #49  
Old 01-27-17, 12:32 PM
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I use FireFox too, and couldn't get on at all early this AM. Fine now. I'm enjoying this thread, learning a lot. Thanks, Steve
 
  #50  
Old 01-27-17, 01:19 PM
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Skip, I did get over there to look and I think all zones have backflow except the indirect. Probably not a big deal but I will mention it when the timing is right.

I installed the two conductor from the N/O dry contacts on the switch relay for the FR over to the group of wires going to TT on the hydrostat. Now that zone can call for heat AND activate the boiler. and I tested it.

Opened up the small electrical box where power enters and all seems to be going where expected. Certainly should have been a larger box.

I will (eventually) draw up an electrical diagram for what is there. Saw the Low Water Control and along with the concerns about the hydrostat I will learn more about how the safety features work.

I noticed that the boiler now holds it heat between calls where before the constant circulation in the FR would cool it down substantially. He has it set now for a high limit of 170° and a low of 160°. With one zone calling it was bouncing off of the high limit, I guess that is to be expected.

Still reading.

Bud
 
  #51  
Old 01-27-17, 03:56 PM
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Bud
That's not to be expected and is not right. There should be a minimum of 20 degrees between the high and low limits. This is to stop the short cycling and going through what is happening to you. That is standard knowledge in the industy and I'm sure it even specifies that in your book. It comes factory set at 20 difference which should tell the guy something.

I truly don't understand this guy. I might understand him adjusting with a larger degree difference but putting them at 10 especially with your boiler it must take no time at all to reach high limit, creating short cycling and wear & tear on the equipment.

I would move the 170 to 180 and you will notice the difference in the running and heat and hot water output.

The only thing that will happen by not having a flocheck on the Amtrol is that every time any other zone calls for heat hot water will circulate through the tank coil also. Thermostat at the tank will have little control over how hot your domestic water is in the winter. There is a chance your tank will greatly overheat. Considering you have 5 other zones there's a good chance that at any given time in the winter 1 or more zones will be calling all the time which means hot water will be going through your coil almost constantly which could be dangerous, not to mention scalding hot water. Summer time or when there are no other calls for heat the tank will run normally on it's own stat.

My suggestion would be to have this guy install one now while the iron is still hot since it should have been part of the job to begin with unless you don't want him touching anything anymore and do it later. It sounds like if you give him an out you will never see him again.

Just my thoughts.

Skip
 
  #52  
Old 01-27-17, 04:01 PM
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He has it set now for a high limit of 170° and a low of 160°
Why a low limit? Your wasting oil.. Boiler should be cold start..

Most times a warm start boiler is used with a tankless coil..

Turn off the low limit IMO. Keep the hi 170 if it heats the home fine..
 
  #53  
Old 01-27-17, 04:04 PM
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The only thing that will happen by not having a flocheck on the Amtrol is that every time any other zone calls for heat hot water will circulate through the tank coil also.
Get a check valve for the pump I linked to in previous post... Breaking the flange at the pump to install will be the simplest.
 
  #54  
Old 01-27-17, 05:18 PM
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Skip, Mike, although I wasn't watching the temps closely this time I did reference the same 10° differential in post #18. I will pay better attention next visit and check for cold start. I had just assumed,,, and you know what that gets.

I just checked the book on how to put it into cold start. It says to remove the jumper at B and turn the low temp to off. From my picture I can see the jumper is currently stored to the left on just one pin, but temp settings on the dial correspond to 160/170. I looked at a before picture (before his last visit) and the jumper is on the 2 left pins and the low temp looks to be off. I'll reserve my thoughts for now.

To review, I need to verify that the jumper has been removed and turn the low dial to off. I assume the jumper remains off.

Back flow kit noted and the point about the indirect creeping up in temperature is a concern, 2 small children.

How does the average home owner (like my daughter) go through this?
TA
Bud
 
  #55  
Old 01-27-17, 05:33 PM
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The low limit is designed to maintain temperature in boilers equipped with tankless coils used for domestic hot water. The low limit is factory set to OFF. Prior to adjusting, remove the jumper(not equipped on all units)

As the above states, LOW LIMIT comes factory set to OFF, and you only remove the jumper prior to changing the setting and utilizing the LOW LIMIT setting which you do not want to do in your case.

If he adjust the LL on his own and he left the jumper connected I would just turn the dial all the way counter clockwise to off and see what happens. That should be all you have to do.

On another note, in all fairness to the installer I read the Hydrostat literature and for some strange reason it does say minimum 10 deg between HI & LO limits which is not the proper settings for the reasons stated earlier. The only company to my knowledge that recommended that.
 

Last edited by spott; 01-27-17 at 05:54 PM.
  #56  
Old 01-27-17, 08:33 PM
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Glad you are reading the Manual too, as it is a bit fuzzy first time through.
From what I can see in my picture from the first installation date, he left the jumper in place and the Low Limit was set to off, which was correct for a cold start.

After his last visit to install the relay for the FR it appears he removed the jumper and set the Low Limit to 160°. That would be correct if we didn't want the cold start, except for the 160° setting. Example, that could be 140° so it would still cycle between 160 and 170 (their 10° notation) during a call but when idle it would cool to the 140 Low Limit. BUT we want the cold start. I'm just going through the description to help myself understand.

So, I should re-install the jumper and adjust the Low Limit to Off, that would be where the factory had it originally for a cold start.

I have seen the economy light come on so I will check to see how many zones he set it for and watch to see if it needs to go up or down.

That's enough for now but the manual has a couple more options I will want to consider. But first I want to work something out for priority.

Done for the night.
Bud

BTW Steve, I forgot to say Hi.
 
  #57  
Old 01-27-17, 08:46 PM
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From my knowledge the differential is not adjustable on the hydrolevel. Its set to 10F I belive..

Meaning on a call for heat the boiler will cycle 10 degrees below your hi limit.. And back and forth until a call for heat is satisfied.

A major draw back for this control IMO..

So yes when and if set for cold start on no calls for heat the boiler temp will go down to ambient temps..
 
  #58  
Old 01-28-17, 06:43 PM
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I didn't get e new picture but this one shows what I think is a much larger back flow device. This is on the supply feed to all three control valves. The red device just above the knob on the mixing valve.
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Bud
 
  #59  
Old 01-28-17, 06:54 PM
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Bud
Yes,that is a B&G FLOCHECK on that pipe. Ironically that is the zone you don't need it on anymore because of the zone valves but it's not hurting anything to leave it. If by chance though it malfunctions you can just turn the screw on top to open manually, but not all the way out, instead of replacing it and it will work the same.
 
  #60  
Old 01-28-17, 07:41 PM
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Good and Thanks,
Actually, one of my options for giving priority to the the indirect would be to interrupt the combined end switch signals from the 3 control valves going to their switch relay. That would drop the switch relay and stop that circulator. But, if one of the control valves was open or there's a call for heat, a valve could still be open, thus having the back flow device eliminates any concern.

The remaining two heating zones use 2 wire stats and I can interrupt those as well. I would use a relay controlled from the switch relay on the indirect. A call for heat from the indirect would then initiate the heat cycle for the hot water and simultaneously stop the other 3 circulators.

As for back flow protection, I don't think either the FR or the indirect water heater have them. Is there any visual way to determine if a back flow device has been installed on/in a Taco pump?

Bud
 
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Old 01-28-17, 10:27 PM
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isual way to determine if a back flow device has been installed on/in a Taco pump?
Model # on pump will say IFC at the end..
 
  #62  
Old 01-29-17, 04:31 AM
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Thank you, I will get those model numbers.

Instructions for adjusting the low temp suggest that the jumper at B affects the range of that adjustment. 'If the temp cannot be adjusted above 140° then remove the jumper.' I hate it when a mfg provides 3 pins for a 2-pin jumper but does not specify left or right pair. My before picture suggests the left pair for a setting of zero, any idea which pair and exactly what they do?

Bud
 
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Old 01-29-17, 09:05 AM
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No matter what they do. Turn the low off..

Put the jumper back in its original position from your pic..

Dont worry about this too much at this point...
 
  #64  
Old 01-29-17, 09:07 AM
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: If the low limit setting is dialed fully counter clockwise, it will shut off
the low temperature maintenance feature and will function as a cold start control. If
installed with an indirect water heater, check that the Zone/Indirect Switch is set in the
Indirect (I) position. Verify that the end switch in the relay box controlling the indirect water
heater is connected to the ZC-ZR terminals. This will ensure that the domestic water calls
are prioritized. (see “Heating and Indirect Water Heater” on page 4-6).
 
  #65  
Old 01-29-17, 12:00 PM
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Hi Mike, going from the pictures I have (will be there tomorrow) the zone/indirect sw is in the indirect position. But the end sw (n/o terminals 5 & 6) from the indirect sw relay go to TT with all others. There is currently a red 120v wire connected to ZC (ZR empty) that I believe he has used to power one of the circulators, either FR or radiant floor. A black wire from C1 went to the other. After he installed the new sw relay for the FR he moved the black wire into that sw relay to terminal 4NO. But he left the red wire in the 3250 connected to ZC. Why to be determined.

Running the power from the sw relay for FR from 4NO to that circulator should be correct.
Power to the circulator for the radiant floor can be continuous (from after the safety sw) (I think it is currently the red wire) because that circulator has its own built in sw relay. Not sure where best to pick that up.

Once I clear ZC then I can move the end sw from the indirect to ZC and ZR as you stated and shown in their manual. Should those wires be 12/2 ? It looks like ZC has 120 v on it. I can measure it.

Once I separate the end sw from TT and use ZC/ZR then I can use the economy feature and allow it to reduce the high temp setting based upon heat load. A call from the indirect would bypass that adjusted number and go to the high setting.

I can post the pictures I used if desired.
Bud
 
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Old 01-31-17, 09:36 AM
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Sorry for being so slow with the updates, other priorities keep getting in the way.
I got a quick look at the hydrostat this morning to confirm my wiring thoughts.
ZC is currently providing power to the combined sw relay/circulator for the radiant floor. My thinking is that this doesn't need to be coming from ZC, probably just L1 as the sw relay is controlling it from there.

I confirmed that the zone/indirect sw is in the indirect position with the end sw from the indirect relay is going to TT. That should probably be going to ZC/ZR. But there are no circulators connected to C1/C2 so it may not make a difference at this point. Still sorting that out.

While I was there (briefly) boiler was firing and temp was rising. Boiler kicked off at 190° and before I left the overshoot was at 213°. When it kicked off two economy lights came on. I checked the economy setting and he has it at 5, probably because we have 5 zones. But the economy mode can cause the high limit to go up and I don't think we want it as high as it currently is. For the time being I would like to turn economy off and turn the low temp to zero and see how it works.

Bud
 
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Old 01-31-17, 11:13 AM
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Bud,
Is it possible to post pics of the relays your using with the wiring showing. Something to mention here is that the ZC & ZR terminals are line voltage and the TT terminals are 24V. You don't want to connect your end switch to ZC & ZR if it is tstat wire which is low voltage. 14/2 wire for line voltage terminals.
 
  #68  
Old 01-31-17, 01:16 PM
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Thanks Skip,
The only wire I have added so far is between the dry contacts on the sw relay for the FR to TT on the hydrostat with others already there.
I understand the wire requirements for line voltage, just wish the Fuel Smart hydrostat people were a little more open with what is connected to those terminals on the inside. I did find a compatible brand and a schematic shown in a link here. http://www.doityourself.com/forum/bo...-aquastat.html post #13
I know that isn't exactly what is inside the 3250 but it does give an idea what those terminals do.

Bud
 
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Old 02-02-17, 08:58 AM
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Stopped by today and turned the "economy" option off. I didn't like it walking the high limit up over 190 where it would overshoot above 212. I also adjusted the high and low limits, 175 for high and 125 for low. I chickened out turning the low off for now and want to monitor how it performs. Once I can activate the priority and the "hold off" features I'll be more comfortable with a low limit of zero.

Bud
 
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Old 06-19-17, 04:39 PM
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Hi all and thanks for a lot of help along the way. I had promised to return and update what we did, but I couldn't. Things went so bad I didn't want to tell all on an open internet and risk that contractor reading my summary. Right now if there is a warranty issue he should come back and for now that is where I have to leave it.

It will probably be another year before the dust settles but my advice to anyone owning an older system would be, go through ALL of the replacement decision making long before you need to and while you can take your time. A boiler or furnace that dies when it is zero outside can't wait for heat calculations and multiple bids. You end up making choices that can turn out to be wrong.

Love the Pensotti boiler, hate the installation. Only good part is I now know a lot more about what we have.

Sorry to leave it hanging so long.

Bud
 
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Old 06-20-17, 08:28 AM
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Bud, sorry to hear about the problems. Best of luck with the resolution.
 
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Old 06-20-17, 10:09 AM
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Fortunately the US distributor is only 10 miles away and I ran into them at a home show. He provided a long list of local dealers that sell and service their units and assured me they would make sure any warranty issues were taken care of. BTW, the installer I ended up with wasn't on that list. Guess I didn't do all of my homework.

The really good part is, I needed to learn more about boilers and specifically about that system, which was part of the problem, it evolved over three expansions. But at no time did this boiler guy take the time to even look beyond the boiler room. He definitely fell down on the job.

We will have a cleaning coming up before winter and will see what his attitude is. He wouldn't be my choice but that isn't up to me. But I'll be there.

Bud
 
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Old 06-22-17, 06:25 PM
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You started the post asking about DHW priority. Was there a problem making hot enough water?
 
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Old 06-22-17, 08:17 PM
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We really didn't know if we would need priority or not but given the much smaller size boiler and the fact that this system should be able to provide priority I thought it would be good. Unfortunately the installer never intended to activate it and in fact would not have been able to without a significant change in plumbing. I can do it with added relays but have held off as he would blame any problems on my work so right now it is basically all his, plus some added control wiring I pushed him to add.

Definitely work in progress as space for 2 more adults and to small kids is currently being added. I just have to wait for the dust to settle.

Thanks,
Bud
 
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