Fixing new boiler installation

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Old 01-20-17, 07:28 AM
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Fixing new boiler installation

My initial thread was about selecting a new boiler and finding a boiler company to install it.
http://www.doityourself.com/forum/bo...ew-boiler.html

That is done so now I need a new thread to help fix the mess that was created, I'm not pleased. I do accept some of the blame so finger pointing is acceptable and I will explain what I may have done better along with the problems the boiler guy created in hopes that this information will help others.

I just had the boiler guy back (1-19-2017) to make some of the required (we differed on whether they were required or not) changes so pictures will be coming along with a schematic of the current wiring.

One of the issues which we can address without pictures is the need for priority for the indirect water heater. It was not specified in the original contract but I assumed it was a standard feature all indirect wh's should be using. He disagreed and said he never uses it and it would have required a much larger control box which was not included in the quote. Since I tried to get as small as possible with the boiler selection (Pensotti DK2-3 with a Riello burner at 63,000 BTU) I would like to help it out as much as possible by having the priority.

My question is, is it common to NOT activate priority when installing an indirect water heater? The system ended up being 5 zones plus the indirect.

I will get new pictures and get my scanner working so I can include the wiring diagram.

Bud
 
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Old 01-20-17, 10:44 AM
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Just practicing: If this works this is what the finished installation looks like.
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Bud
 
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Old 01-20-17, 11:27 AM
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Indirect water heaters are not common in my area, hydronic space heating of single-family homes is not common either but I cannot think of any single family residential situation where giving priority to the domestic water heating would be a detriment.

Now IF you were speaking of a multi-family building that supplied domestic hot water from a central location THEN the boiler(s) would need to be sized to provide both the space heating load AND the hot water load simultaneously.

(Added after seeing picture.)
Finished? Where is the pipe insulation? Where are the pipe hangers? Why is the oil line so far from the housekeeping pad?
 
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Old 01-20-17, 12:20 PM
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LOL, I've started my list and I expect it to be long. He was very careful to not do anything beyond install the new boiler, even when it left the system not working. Thus, pipe hangers, not part of his job. My daughter had him back once to deal with banging pipes when the washing machine was in use and he only touched the pipes he installed and left and there was still some banging.

When I get into the details as to how he left the installation when he said it was done and took his check, you will see that he either didn't know what he was doing or he did know and left it that way on purpose.

Well my picture came through so my pc skills are improving. Trying to adjust the physical size along with the pixel size, but that is another thread if needed.

Bud
 
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Old 01-20-17, 06:45 PM
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Bud,
Speaking for myself and my personal experience installing systems you generally assess the job to see if the tank should be made priority. Every job is different. When I installed my own there were 5 of us with 3 females and we had enough hot water without the priority.

Most tanks do not come with a priority feature or at least they didn't when I was installing. Indirects worked simply as another zone.

That being said it looks like you have an Amtrol Tank which actually has all the wiring provided inside the panel to make your tank priority with no problem except rearranging the wiring. There should be a schematic in the installation manual and generally inside the cover of the front wiring panel of the tank. I have the same in my house that I installed in maybe 1988 which still provides plenty of hot water.

What is he talking about when he mentions a larger control box. Is he talking about a larger $2 box for the connections.

Hope this helps a little.
 
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Old 01-20-17, 06:53 PM
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In my opinion, the domestic most certainly should be on a priority control. Most zone panels use Zone 1 as the priority zone with simple on/off switch. He is telling you a major untruth saying priority on the indirect would require a "much larger control box" if he used one of the common zone panels.
 
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Old 01-20-17, 07:05 PM
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In my opinion, the domestic most certainly should be on a priority control.
I agree also..

Its standard practice here on east coast to prioritize the indirect. Ive never not done it. And when Im gone if the homeowner wishes to prioritize it they just flip a switch..


six zone taco panel... Simple..

( Also boiler should be cold start if its not..)


 
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Old 01-20-17, 07:08 PM
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Oh but I see you have one circ with zone valves. You would do that one different..
 
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Old 01-20-17, 09:06 PM
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Spott, I hadn't thought to examine the indirect tank for priority, I will add that to my list. But I agree I need to evaluate how the house and indirect perform and then decide from there whether I need priority.

As for "need a new box" he wasn't specific as in the back of his mind he wants to replace all of the copper and install all new circulators and then a box like Mike has posted below would work fine. Of the current 6 zones including the indirect zone, 3 have zone control valves using one circulator and the other three go through switch relays to separate circulators. But the zone configuration and controls will be addressed once I get what I have working and a chance to evaluate it.

Grady, the only controls that came with the new boiler were the hydrostat and one SR501 to control the indirect zone. Better picture added. Then he just came back and added a second switch relay to control one of the zones he messed up. That zone had the stat wired directly to TT on the boiler and the circulator running 24/7, no control. Anytime there was a call for the boiler, like the indirect, that FR zone got hot, ALL SUMMER LONG while the window ac was running.

Mike, the "different" is what we will work out. The sad part is he made zero effort to determine what was there even when he was bidding the job. He didn't know how many zones there were or how they were controlled.

Here's the other side of the boiler and I will get more pictures uploaded to Photobucket.

Thanks all for reading and the input.
Bud
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Old 01-20-17, 09:17 PM
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That being said it looks like you have an Amtrol Tank which actually has all the wiring provided inside the panel to make your tank priority with no problem except rearranging the wiring. There should be a schematic in the installation manual and generally inside the cover of the front wiring panel of the tank.
I had an Amtrol Boilermate Indirect for several years, it came with the "Smart Control" which allows for HW priority, and it also has several other useful functions and settings, such as post-purge. I believe that is what you are referring to.

With a Smart Control, there isn't any need for a separate relay box. As you noted, it's all about the wiring.
 
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Old 01-21-17, 06:41 AM
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I have not looked what amtrol has internal but I would just get a 503 4 for the 2 zones and the indirect. This will take care of the 3 circs.

http://s3.supplyhouse.com/manuals/13..._PROD_FILE.pdf


Then I would get a 403 4 to control the other circ and the zone valves.

Make it so easy to wire..

http://s3.supplyhouse.com/product_fi...%20Install.pdf
 
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Old 01-21-17, 08:35 AM
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Thanks Mike I hadn't looked at what would be used if we keep the zone control valves, 403 noted.
I had been waiting for him to show up and remedy the heat issue in the FR where my daughter noticed the heat was coming on when the indirect called for heat. He never answered my emails when I asked what he would do even though I explained in detail that the problem was bigger than just that zone. I guess I was dreaming that he might show up with some appropriate box/es and fix everything. Well, all he brought was a used single zone switch relay, a clear indication he did not feel he was responsible for anything to do with the existing plumbing or controls and once that was connected he was going to leave. He knew there were other zones that were not turning on the boiler and by ignoring that problem again he made it obvious the problems were not from incompetence but from arrogance.

I stood firm and pointed out that the two remaining switch relays (one for the three control valves and the other for a single zone) were still not connected to the boiler and that both switch relays had unused dry contacts specifically for that purpose, they just needed the wires run. He gave me an "OH" now I see what you are saying (BS) and they ran the two wires. They then left immediately without testing anything and he said see how that runs and let him know.

I want to avoid any more reviewing of what he didn't do and the speculating as to why, he has made his position clear and I will just move on to address the rest by myself. When I get to replacing the copper jungle then I will decide who gets that job.

For now I will decide on the benefits or risks involving priority. I will be there this afternoon so will get a look at the Amtrol and be able to watch the zones cycle, hoping they do.

I'll also take some more pictures and post the majority of them on Photobucket. Boiler bypass will be my next question and I'll have pictures of the plumbing.

Bud
 
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Old 01-21-17, 08:39 AM
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Mike,
The Amtrol provides all the wiring needed for priority zoning. There were a set of purple wires for that purpose that you just tied into your heating circulator to. Instead of tieing your circ to C1 & C2 you connect C1 to 1 purple and the other purple goes to pump and then the other pump wire goes to C2 on the control. Simply put the pump and purple wires are a series circuit.

It cannot be any easier than that. Nor relays or other outside controls, just a couple of wires.

Bud,
If you go to the sight Mike mentioned and type in AMTROL BOILER MATE, click on the model you have, scroll down to installation guide and all your wiring schematics will be there. Find the one for priority and see how easy it is.

Amtrol is unlike the other Indirects on the market where they just have an aquastat to wire in. Amtrol, although more pricey, comes complete and gives you many options and is basically prewired.
 
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Old 01-21-17, 09:01 AM
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Bud,
One thing to mention here are FLOCHECKS. From what I can see in the pics you have none which may be the reason for the FR heating.
When ZV's are used for zone heating none are required because the ZV's when closed stop the flow of unwanted heating water to other zones except the one calling. When pumps are used you must use a FLOCHECK to stop the water going into unwanted areas.

In other words when your Amtrol calls, the circulating boiler water could be leaking into another zone because of nothing to stop the flow.

When you call for hot water check the other zones with pumps to see if the pipes get hot with nothing else calling and see how far they get hot. Chances are that FR is the closest and begins to heat which the FLOCHECK would prevent.
 
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Old 01-21-17, 12:52 PM
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Check your pumps data plates and see if they say IFC after the model #.............. ( Internal flow check)
 
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Old 01-21-17, 01:42 PM
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@spott the lack of a flow check was not the issue in the FR, that circulator was wired with continuous power so any call for heat, which at the time could have only come from that FR or the indirect, resulted in the boiler kicking on and that hot water being sent to the FR.

But it is something I will check once we get down to the finer details. The FR is not really close, about 40' to the far end.

And Mike, I'll get those model numbers of the circulators.
The model on the Amtrol is WH41Z and I have the book in hand.

Bud
 
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Old 01-21-17, 03:52 PM
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Bud, go to the priority schematic and see what they do with the purple wires in the tank. That is all you have to do if you elect to go priority.

Put the circ in series with the purple wires and C1 & C2.
 
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Old 01-22-17, 05:21 AM
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spott, I'm reading the book on the Amtrol, sure looks interesting, but I need to get what I have working first and fully understand it before I do any changes. To the hydrostat.

I'll try to keep my posts shorter and take each issue one at a time.
Yesterday I watched the boiler cycle. A zone called for heat and the boiler fired at 160°. Temp rose to 170° in a couple of minutes and boiler shut down. Temp slowly dropped to 160° and boiler came back on as expected. Then, I assume the call for heat was satisfied, watching the temp it continued to rise to 196° with no fire in the boiler. Seemed strange to have that much overshoot. Thoughts?

Bud
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What I'm showing as PAC was my attempt to introduce priority by providing a switched power feed to the three switch relays (other than the indirect not shown). That option is not currently wired into the system as the boiler man didn't see the need. I'm not sure it is a valid option anyway.
 

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Old 01-22-17, 07:03 AM
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WHAT ARE THE ADDITIONAL CONTROLS GOING TO COST YOU? THE TWO i LINKED TO ARE ABOUT 220$ FOR BOTH.

Opps caps lock.... sry
 
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Old 01-22-17, 07:25 AM
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Everything in the drawing is already there plus a switch relay for the indirect. I had included the PAC in my drawing to discuss the priority options with the boiler man and as it turned out he had no plans for priority. The drawing was just my attempt to figure out what is there and it now includes the added switch relay and TT connections headed to the boiler.Maybe a boiler guy can look at the wiring and quickly understand what is there but it was very confusing to me. Here's one view.
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Bud
 
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Old 01-22-17, 07:45 AM
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Also Argo controls are cheaper and identical to the tacos. They should have these in your area.

I would put a backerboard on the wall behind the boiler. Run the 3 circs BX cable to the one control and all the t stats. Run xx to the boiler.

Then do same for 3 zone valve wireing to other control.. ( But I would need to look how to wire/ allow this control to turn off and allow prority to the indirect)
 
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Old 01-22-17, 07:49 AM
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OK with the relay the 3 zone valves get wired like this basically..

[ATTACH=CONFIG]76187[/ATTACH]
 
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Old 01-22-17, 09:21 AM
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Bud,
The unconventional, for lack of a better word, overshoot is because the boiler design keeps more heat in the boiler and less going up the chimney which is a good thing, unlike our conventional boilers. Years ago, late 70's when the oil crunch first hit Pensotti introduced their boiler with the Riello burner, at least in my area. It is a European 3 pass boiler design and very efficient. Although you could use other burners, with the Riello burner they claimed an 87 efficiency which was unheard of at the time.

When set up correctly you have a very nice and efficient system and although unusual with our conventional single pass boilers that much overshoot is not a bad thing and is made possible by the heat that would have gone up the chimney staying in the boiler and continuing to heat the stagnant water which is to your advantage.
 
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Old 01-22-17, 09:45 AM
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spott, thank you, I'm glad I asked. Up until now (added switch relay) that surplus heat has been getting purged out into zone 3 as that circulator was always running, thus I never saw an overshoot.

Mike, I think that is basically what I already have, plus the additional 2 zones with their own circulators. Sorry for the fuzzy picture of my schematic, but my old scanner isn't going to make it, beyond repair.

Bud
 
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Old 01-22-17, 01:24 PM
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You did not respond but im also sure your circs are IFC type with the flow checks...
 
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Old 01-22-17, 01:52 PM
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Mike, I was going to check those on next visit, but I'll also try digging through my notes. Been awhile but I'm sure I wrote down all models as i was trying to figure out what everything does. I have one, Taco 007 ZF5-5. I'll check the others.
Bud
 
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Old 01-22-17, 02:22 PM
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Bud,
That pump number you gave is a priority zoning pump. If it had a flow check built in it would have an IFC after the last number.

Was that installed on your Indirect zone or a heating zone.

"The patented Taco Priority Zoning Circulator combines the reliability of the 00® circulator with the convenience and efficiency of a switching relay. With a built-in transformer, relay and priority switch, all the wiring is done directly to the circulator’s PC board, making it ideal for adding a zone or an indirect hot water heater.
The Taco Priority Zoning Circulator combines the reliability of the 00® circulator with the*convenience and efficiency of a PC board mounted switching relay package. Each zoning circulator has low and high voltage terminal strips for ease of electrical hookup, as well as*a built-in priority switch. The priority switch allows the installer to choose the zone that*requires the most attention and, when activated, run only that circulator. The priority zoning*circulator can be used in conjunction with other circulators or zone valves. It is ideal for*indirect hot water heaters, adding another zone, zoning with circulators, and for prioritizing*under-sized zones".*
 
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Old 01-22-17, 02:58 PM
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I dont know spott... I see how to wire it but how does it tell the other circs not to run? I assume some typo of daisy chain 120v out to the other circs?

http://www.famousparts.com/content/T...Circulator.pdf
 
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Old 01-22-17, 03:08 PM
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Also bud if no IFC,s get them and add them to each pump..

Check proper part #... example..

006-047RP - Taco 006-047RP - IFC Replacement Kit for Select Taco "00" Series Cartridge Circulators
 
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Old 01-22-17, 03:56 PM
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Mike, I honestly don't know. I've never installed one. Just going by the number he gave and until then didn't even know they existed. So far that is all I could find for info. Got my curiosity though and am going to look into it further.

SKIP
 
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Old 01-22-17, 07:37 PM
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Mike IFC replacement kit noted, will check performance after all is working and then decide if needed.

Skip,
* The original system had 2 control valves (ZCV1 &2) and one circulator (C1 with SR1).
* First addition was zone 3 the FR with C2 and whatever controlled it went with the old boiler. We just added SR2 as shown in the drawing.
* The second addition behind the garage included radiant floor heat and one short section of BB. SR3 and C3, the Taco 007 ZF5-5, was installed after a mixing valve for the radiant and a separate zone was created for the small section of BB using a third control valve with the existing circulator C1.

So the ZF5-5 is only serving as its own relay switch and circulator.
Bud
 
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Old 01-23-17, 03:15 PM
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Bud
I saw the pump on the line with the mixing valve and assumed you had radiant somewhere, was just waiting for it to be mentioned. The original system with the ZV's and the new BB operated with a ZV should be fine. That circuit does not need a flocheck installed because of the ZV's are acting as stops. The water cannot circulate to unwanted zones when they are closed.

The added zone, the FR you said was installed with a circulator. If that zone does not have a flocheck either in the pump or separately installed whenever any other zone calls, heating water will circulate into that zone because water takes the path of least resistance and there is nothing to stop the flow.

You said your radiant is also on a circulator. Water may be getting to that zone also if no flocheck was installed.
Now for your Amtrol zone. It looks like a pump controlling that zone most likely with no flocheck either.

My guess is that without those flochecks installed when your Amtrol calls, you are heating the tank plus the FR and possibly the radiant to some degree. This could be the reason why your hot water may be suffering, sharing that heating water with the other zones.

If this is the case, putting your tank on priority is not going to make a difference because the water will still flow to the other areas without the FC's.

That is one example. Another and worse case is if a zone that has a ZV called. Now you are heating the ZV zone, FR zone and possibly the radiant and the Amtrol.

In essence on paper you have 6 zones including the Amtrol but your system is operating as 3. The only ones working properly as far as water going to zones only when it's called for, are the 3 ZV zones. Other than that I'm guessing you could operate the rest with 1 thermostat and get the same results.

I could be wrong but this is how it appears to me.
 
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Old 01-23-17, 03:50 PM
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Thanks Skip, I am absorbing it all but unfortunately probably won't do any copper work until spring. The good news is, as bad as it was set up after the new boiler installation the smaller boiler has been performing very well and we have had some really cold weather. Just getting every Zone to be able to call for heat and activate its circulator to satisfy its call will greatly improve what was there.

Any back flow out into the radiant floor in winter will not be noticed as the radiant is very slow. Summer when she is just using the indirect it would be a waste so we will address it then.

I should be at her house tomorrow so will get more information and be able to check each zone to be sure it is working. I know I need to add one wire as, for some unknown reason, he didn't connect the new switch relay for the FR zone to the boiler. They are 12" apart .
If there is any info from that location I should get plus pictures let me know.
Question, what would the backflow check valves look like? That copper jungle has many items I haven't figured out yet.

Thanks,
Bud
 
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Old 01-23-17, 05:04 PM
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Bud'
Go to SupplyHouse.com and click on the HEATING heading and click on Flow Control Valves and you will get an idea. They should be on the supply lines going out to the zones.

As for the 12" he may have tried to will them together by mental telepathy and when it didn't work he was in a quandary.

As far as making the final connection to the boiler I don't know what you have there so if you can take some pics of the relay and wiring it would be helpful.

On a side note I went back through posts and found a pic of your aquastat and I have a question or an observation.
you have that spaghetti in you aquastat control. Why didn't he make those connection outside and just bring 1 tstat wire to the TT terminals on the control. You really shouldn't have all those wire nutted connections in the box with the line voltage there.

He could have left the wires outside the box and brought 1 tstat wire from the terminals to the other wires outside and joined them there.
 
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Old 01-23-17, 05:35 PM
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In this picture what is that device just above and to the right of the mixing valve? That is the supply side for the radiant floor.

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Old 01-23-17, 05:58 PM
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what is that device just above and to the right of the mixing valve?
Thats a check valve... how many of them are on the system?
 
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Old 01-23-17, 06:09 PM
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One down . I will look for them tomorrow and get pictures. Also pictures of other parts I don't understand.

Bud
 
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Old 01-23-17, 08:10 PM
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That's good. Your radiant zone is good. You should have 2 more hopefully. 1 on your FR and 1 on your Amtrol.
 
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Old 01-25-17, 06:32 AM
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I didn't make it over to my daughters yesterday, REALLY bad weather, sleet and freezing rain. Still raining but too cool to melt much. Two at the house have cold bugs so waiting a couple more days is not bad.

Currently trying to dig through an old thread of NJT from Sept 2012.
http://www.doityourself.com/forum/bo...ing-error.html
The op seems to want to use some of the same features I'm interested in. It'll keep me busy.

That was 2012, has anyone come up with a schematic for what is inside a 3250 hydrostat? I'm only half way through so maybe it is mentioned.

Bud
 
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Old 01-25-17, 10:36 AM
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Bud,
I was unaware you were looking for info on the 3250. What info are you looking for. I see you mentioned a 504 which I missed earlier. With that and the Amtrol you have plenty of priority options with out adding any more relays.
 
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