Weil-McLain...cracked block
#41
Hmm IDK about the beckett as its just a differential device from my experience..
With oil any type out door reset and too low boiler water temps you run the risk of condensating in the flue.
If they put a 1.00 nozzle in thats fine. will save you in oil. With a larger boiler and putting to small of a nozzle is not a good thing because the chamber was designed for a certain size so the flame hits the back of the chamber properly to heat the boiler. Too small and your efficiency goes down. You'll waste more oil trying to heat the boiler..
IMO save your money and set the differential yourself to save some oil and stop short cycling..
I would set a 30F diff to start and see how well the boiler does. I dont know the range of that aquastst or what its set for now, but the beckett takes it down to a 40f diff at times and thats too low for me..
So in summery set the high limit diff to 30F.. Boiler will heat to 180f then the burner will not kick on till a 30f drop or 150f..
https://forwardthinking.honeywell.co...ll/69_1720.pdf
With oil any type out door reset and too low boiler water temps you run the risk of condensating in the flue.
If they put a 1.00 nozzle in thats fine. will save you in oil. With a larger boiler and putting to small of a nozzle is not a good thing because the chamber was designed for a certain size so the flame hits the back of the chamber properly to heat the boiler. Too small and your efficiency goes down. You'll waste more oil trying to heat the boiler..
IMO save your money and set the differential yourself to save some oil and stop short cycling..
I would set a 30F diff to start and see how well the boiler does. I dont know the range of that aquastst or what its set for now, but the beckett takes it down to a 40f diff at times and thats too low for me..
So in summery set the high limit diff to 30F.. Boiler will heat to 180f then the burner will not kick on till a 30f drop or 150f..
https://forwardthinking.honeywell.co...ll/69_1720.pdf
#42
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Hmm IDK about the beckett as its just a differential device from my experience..
With oil any type out door reset and too low boiler water temps you run the risk of condensating in the flue.
With oil any type out door reset and too low boiler water temps you run the risk of condensating in the flue.
If they put a 1.00 nozzle in thats fine. will save you in oil. With a larger boiler and putting to small of a nozzle is not a good thing because the chamber was designed for a certain size so the flame hits the back of the chamber properly to heat the boiler. Too small and your efficiency goes down. You'll waste more oil trying to heat the boiler..
I would set a 30F diff to start and see how well the boiler does. I dont know the range of that aquastst or what its set for now, but the beckett takes it down to a 40f diff at times and thats too low for me..
So in summery set the high limit diff to 30F.. Boiler will heat to 180f then the burner will not kick on till a 30f drop or 150f..
So in summery set the high limit diff to 30F.. Boiler will heat to 180f then the burner will not kick on till a 30f drop or 150f..
Speaking of Trooper...is he still around? He always helped me a TON on past issues.
Wally
#43
Trooper lives near me. I believe he is still alive and well but just not active on the forums. He was last logged in of 8/1/16.
Yeah I would leave at 180f since your heat loss dictates that temp for maximum bb output..
Try the 30f diff and see how that performs.
Although if not the coldest day of the year boilers benefit in fuel savings at lower temps.
Since I am over radiated I have my boiler set to 160f roughly. But my non adjustable swing on the diff is only 15f..
Yeah I would leave at 180f since your heat loss dictates that temp for maximum bb output..
Try the 30f diff and see how that performs.
Although if not the coldest day of the year boilers benefit in fuel savings at lower temps.
Since I am over radiated I have my boiler set to 160f roughly. But my non adjustable swing on the diff is only 15f..
#44
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After doing the cleaning/tune-up (putting in the 1.00 nozzle), they said the flame looked 'very good'.
It is ABSOLUTELY IMPERATIVE to have proper combustion analysis done after the initial installation.
#45
"A
Funny Joel.. Unfortunatly thats a common issue with these oil techs..Most old timers here say they know just by looking at the flame...No analyzers required..
r, that's a mighty fine looking fire yu gots there, matey!"
#46
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Not that different with gas-fired equipment.
When I had my furnace replaced I asked the installers if they did the combustion analysis, manometer check and gas consumption. Nope, their response was that this was done in the factory and didn't need to be checked. Nor did they check the temperature rise across the heat exchanger but just stated, "It sounds real good! If the blower speed needed to be changed you could tell by the sound."
(Lots more crap concerning that installation but I'll not repeat what I have previously written.)
When it came time for my "free" one year check the technician still didn't check the combustion and when I pressured him to at least check the gas pressure (manometer) he confessed that he couldn't because the battery connector on his meter was broken. I re-soldered the connector for him and upon testing he found the gas valve pressure regulator set significantly higher than specification. So much for "factory settings".
This was from a company that has been in business since 1920. Needless to say, I have not had them return.
When I had my furnace replaced I asked the installers if they did the combustion analysis, manometer check and gas consumption. Nope, their response was that this was done in the factory and didn't need to be checked. Nor did they check the temperature rise across the heat exchanger but just stated, "It sounds real good! If the blower speed needed to be changed you could tell by the sound."
(Lots more crap concerning that installation but I'll not repeat what I have previously written.)
When it came time for my "free" one year check the technician still didn't check the combustion and when I pressured him to at least check the gas pressure (manometer) he confessed that he couldn't because the battery connector on his meter was broken. I re-soldered the connector for him and upon testing he found the gas valve pressure regulator set significantly higher than specification. So much for "factory settings".
This was from a company that has been in business since 1920. Needless to say, I have not had them return.
#47
Not to get off subject, but yes there is no training anymore of the young to perform simple diognostics of the trade. The youth dont want to learn and find it easier to go on the internet to find info or instruction they need. You tube generation.
Its sad really. It makes the youth not be able to think for themselves and be more creative. I see it in my 16 year old... No job, no disire to get his permit and learn to drive, get a car...etc. He feels its all a burden and major responsibility it seems the youth cant cope with...
Arrrggg...
Its sad really. It makes the youth not be able to think for themselves and be more creative. I see it in my 16 year old... No job, no disire to get his permit and learn to drive, get a car...etc. He feels its all a burden and major responsibility it seems the youth cant cope with...
Arrrggg...
#48
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To Furd and Lawrosa's point. Years ago I worked for a service co. and there was a guy in town with an oil co. Everyone in the business knew he was full of sh** but he had the public fooled until one day he was doing a tune-up and the woman came down and asked about the efficiency test, probably talking to somebody, so the guy told her he was going to get to it. She called his bluff and wanted to see him do it and wasn't taking no for an answer. He said he had to go to the shop for something and came to our place in a panic to talk to the boss but not in front of us.
So we went into another room with our ears glued to the door to see what trouble he got himself into this time. As it turns out this man was in business for about 20 yrs and never did an efficiency test and had no idea how to use the equipment.
After a crash course he left to go bluff his way through another job. As I said, we knew he was full of sh** but that day validated everything we suspected. Had a great laugh and made our day.
So we went into another room with our ears glued to the door to see what trouble he got himself into this time. As it turns out this man was in business for about 20 yrs and never did an efficiency test and had no idea how to use the equipment.
After a crash course he left to go bluff his way through another job. As I said, we knew he was full of sh** but that day validated everything we suspected. Had a great laugh and made our day.
#49
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The only time I ever recall seeing a tech use the proper equipment was the original installer. In all of the many tune-ups I've had done since then, I can't recall ever seeing a tech use the a meter. Shame on ME, 'cause I know that's the correct way to do it. Grrr....
Well gentlemen, another successful project. As always...can't thank you all enough.
Unless there are any objections...meeting adjourned.
Wally
Well gentlemen, another successful project. As always...can't thank you all enough.
Unless there are any objections...meeting adjourned.
Wally
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Hey folks. Gonna resurrect this thread to give an update.
Unfortunately, not good news.
If you recall the bent boiler inlet pipe into the water heater (see post #37), I had said that I was concerned it would cause stress on the union and/or fittings. Sadly, it appears I was correct.
I hadn't had time to really give the job a good look-over until last Wed...and found this:
All of these fitting and pipes were perfectly clean prior to the job. It's leaking right at the IDHW zone valve. Actually, the zone valve just ahead of that one is leaking as well (but not as bad). From what I can tell, the fitting right at the expansion tank was over-tightened, which in turn dropped the back end of the manifold approx 3/8" too low (I know this doesn't make any sense, you'll have to trust me )
To make matters worse, the installer is NOT being very receptive to doing anything about it. He made 2 appts with me to come look at it...then cancelled both times (on top of never returning to replace the damaged door threshold and clean the floor - as he had promised). I finally stopped in and spoke to the owner of the company, and showed him the pictures. He's a tough guy to read, so I'm not sure how this is gonna play out. At this point, the installer is supposed to come over tomorrow (Monday).
I'll keep ya updated.
Thanx for listening! Wally
Unfortunately, not good news.
If you recall the bent boiler inlet pipe into the water heater (see post #37), I had said that I was concerned it would cause stress on the union and/or fittings. Sadly, it appears I was correct.
I hadn't had time to really give the job a good look-over until last Wed...and found this:
All of these fitting and pipes were perfectly clean prior to the job. It's leaking right at the IDHW zone valve. Actually, the zone valve just ahead of that one is leaking as well (but not as bad). From what I can tell, the fitting right at the expansion tank was over-tightened, which in turn dropped the back end of the manifold approx 3/8" too low (I know this doesn't make any sense, you'll have to trust me )
To make matters worse, the installer is NOT being very receptive to doing anything about it. He made 2 appts with me to come look at it...then cancelled both times (on top of never returning to replace the damaged door threshold and clean the floor - as he had promised). I finally stopped in and spoke to the owner of the company, and showed him the pictures. He's a tough guy to read, so I'm not sure how this is gonna play out. At this point, the installer is supposed to come over tomorrow (Monday).
I'll keep ya updated.
Thanx for listening! Wally
#51
Thank for update wally... Keep us informed of the outcome..
All and all with old piping, more often then not ,when I do work in an area of a boiler other areas may tend to leak. Old solder joints come loose, etc.
But I return in a timely manner and repair. Thats what makes good customer service...
All and all with old piping, more often then not ,when I do work in an area of a boiler other areas may tend to leak. Old solder joints come loose, etc.
But I return in a timely manner and repair. Thats what makes good customer service...
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Can't believe I forgot to mention this, as it may be the most important issue:
Prior to the install, the flue stack was held down with 4 sheet metal screws, and there were no visible signs of leaking. Now, there's this:
No screws holding it in place, and (more concerning) obvious leaking (burn marks).
Isn't this against code? I'm not sure where to look, but I would think there's some guidance calling for mechanical fasteners. I put a plug-in CO meter in the basement, just for safety sake....so far zero's.
Thoughts?
Wally
Prior to the install, the flue stack was held down with 4 sheet metal screws, and there were no visible signs of leaking. Now, there's this:
No screws holding it in place, and (more concerning) obvious leaking (burn marks).
Isn't this against code? I'm not sure where to look, but I would think there's some guidance calling for mechanical fasteners. I put a plug-in CO meter in the basement, just for safety sake....so far zero's.
Thoughts?
Wally
#53
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To the best of my knowledge "code" requires three sheet-metal screws spaced equally around the circumference of the exhaust duct.
.
The ONLY thing to say about those home carbon monoxide monitors is that having one is slightly better than not having one. The biggest problem is that they can lull a homeowner into a false state of security. Home model CO monitors are NOT very sensitive and you could easily have dangerous levels of CO present without the monitor showing a problem.
Just my opinion.
I put a plug-in CO meter in the basement, just for safety sake....so far zero's
The ONLY thing to say about those home carbon monoxide monitors is that having one is slightly better than not having one. The biggest problem is that they can lull a homeowner into a false state of security. Home model CO monitors are NOT very sensitive and you could easily have dangerous levels of CO present without the monitor showing a problem.
Just my opinion.
#54
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Lawrosa: With oil any type out door reset and too low boiler water temps you run the risk of condensation in the flue.
Dual Digital F / C PID Temperature Controller with K Thermocouple M2D2 | eBay
On cold winter mornings my thermostats steps to daytime temp activating circulator. Cold return water lowers boiler temp from ODR controlled(140F - 180F). At 135F (1 deg deltaT) PID control stops circulator until boiler temp reaches 136F. If you do not like those numbers it is easy to use different ones.
Lawrosa: With a larger boiler and putting to small of a nozzle is not a good thing because the chamber was designed for a certain size so the flame hits the back of the chamber properly to heat the boiler.
Lawrosa: Too small(nozzle) and your efficiency goes down. You'll waste more oil trying to heat the boiler.
Smaller nozzles (less gph & BTU's) lower stack temp raising efficiency. Put another way, less heated gases going up the chimney is more efficient. The stack temp / efficiency charts all show this. The ultimate are condensing boilers with room temp stacks.
Unfortunately in this era of alternative facts, proponents of long cycles ignore the data showing efficiency goes down as cycle time lengthens.
The only burner component really sensitive to number of cycles are centrifical start switches in some motors. Other burner components are more run-time sensitive rather than number of cycles .
For those inclined to instruments using a thermometer to measure stack temp is a good place to learn how the system is doing and when to clean it.
Last edited by doughess; 02-28-17 at 09:22 AM.
#55
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When I had my furnace replaced I asked the installers if they did the combustion analysis, manometer check and gas consumption. Nope, their response was that this was done in the factory and didn't need to be checked.
I have a UEi C50 combustion analyzer - which measures flue gas CO2, CO, excess air, temperature, and efficiency. I don't have the thermal printer accessory that prints out the results, but a professional certainly should - and should provide you a print-out. (If he is unable to provide a print-out of the test results, then find somebody that can.)
I also have a Dwyer 460 air meter to use for measuring furnace draft.
#56
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P.S. If you hire somebody to run a combustion analysis, make sure they can give you a printout of the before and the after test results. Do that before bothering them to come out to your house.
#57
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Over a period of several years I accumulated everything needed to tune up oil burners, I donated it all to a hysterical () museum around the turn of the century.
I had the Bacharach smoke pump, MZF draft gauge, stack thermometer, a pocket draft gauge along with the Fyrite "dumbells" for oxygen and carbon monoxide. I had the slide rule for calculating burner efficiency along with different slides for different fuels. I also had a pen aspirator that used glass ampoules to detect carbon monoxide but the ampoules were long out of date. I had also found a J-thermocouple meter but the wire it had may not have been correct. I even found a nicely made wooden carrying case that everything fit.
I was able to find a local source for the Fyrite fluids and gasket sets, about $20 each as I recall, the oxygen maybe being a bit higher.
These instruments helped me to maintain the oil-burning boiler I had installed in my parent's home. In my own home I had central electric heat so the combustion analyzers were of no use. After I moved I had a gas-fired furnace and the analyzer was of limited use and by this time I had converted the boiler to an atmospheric gas burner so I really didn't need the equipment.
Today the Fyrite rebuild kits sell for more than $100. each, the MZF draft gauge is north of $400. and I think the smoke pump is about $100. The Bacharach stack thermometer is about $80. these days. I don't know if you can even find the slide rule.
My personal opinion is that IF you have several oil burners that you maintain then having a relatively low-cost electronic analyzer might make sense, especially if it combines the functions of smoke spot and draft. The "wet kits" are simply too expensive to maintain and modern gas burners (not conversion burners on equipment originally fired with oil) simply do not have any adjustments beyond gas pressure requiring combustion analysis. For the latter a Dwyer Magnehelic with a range of 0 to 10 inches of water column is sufficient on natural gas or 0-25 inches of water column for propane.
I had the Bacharach smoke pump, MZF draft gauge, stack thermometer, a pocket draft gauge along with the Fyrite "dumbells" for oxygen and carbon monoxide. I had the slide rule for calculating burner efficiency along with different slides for different fuels. I also had a pen aspirator that used glass ampoules to detect carbon monoxide but the ampoules were long out of date. I had also found a J-thermocouple meter but the wire it had may not have been correct. I even found a nicely made wooden carrying case that everything fit.
I was able to find a local source for the Fyrite fluids and gasket sets, about $20 each as I recall, the oxygen maybe being a bit higher.
These instruments helped me to maintain the oil-burning boiler I had installed in my parent's home. In my own home I had central electric heat so the combustion analyzers were of no use. After I moved I had a gas-fired furnace and the analyzer was of limited use and by this time I had converted the boiler to an atmospheric gas burner so I really didn't need the equipment.
Today the Fyrite rebuild kits sell for more than $100. each, the MZF draft gauge is north of $400. and I think the smoke pump is about $100. The Bacharach stack thermometer is about $80. these days. I don't know if you can even find the slide rule.
My personal opinion is that IF you have several oil burners that you maintain then having a relatively low-cost electronic analyzer might make sense, especially if it combines the functions of smoke spot and draft. The "wet kits" are simply too expensive to maintain and modern gas burners (not conversion burners on equipment originally fired with oil) simply do not have any adjustments beyond gas pressure requiring combustion analysis. For the latter a Dwyer Magnehelic with a range of 0 to 10 inches of water column is sufficient on natural gas or 0-25 inches of water column for propane.