Weil mMclain GV-5 Series 1

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Old 03-03-17, 12:06 PM
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Weil mMclain GV-5 Series 1

Folks,I recently replaced 4 Honeywell Zone valves with 4 Flow Control valves to allow me to use a Taco -SR506 Priority Zone controller. The Taco replaced 4 Furnas contactors that would send the signal to the zone valves and energize the zone circulator pumps. The Taco is working properly as my DHW indirect is prioritized and not allow the zone circulator pumps to run when the room thermostats are calling for heat. The system previously allowed the pumps to run even as the indirect was calling for hot water from the boiler. The boiler uses a internal circulator to feed water to the Indirect. The internal circulator also runs whenever a baseboard zones calls for heat. The system is piped with 4 Circulator pumps each being controlled by 4 thermostats.
What I'm feeling is the water is flowing through all the zones even as the respective circulator pump is not energized. The piping coming from the boiler is a 1" riser to the ceiling and nineties, supplying the individual zones There is a 1" riser returning in parallel to the boiler. How do I prevent the flow reaching the zones thatare not calling? I would like to explore the "close space tee" piping concept.
 
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Old 03-03-17, 01:45 PM
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d,
It sounds like you originally had zone valves to control your zones which do not need flocheck valves but control the flow to zones on their own.
By eliminating the zone valves and installing separate circulators you now need to add flocheck valves or insert flochecks into the pumps if they except them to stop unwanted flow to zones not calling for heat.

After rereading your post you said you added flocheck valves. Are they on automatic or manual.

Pics would be good if possible.


Hope this helps a little.
 
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Old 03-03-17, 02:28 PM
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Weil Mclain GV-5

All 4 zones are getting flow whenever one, two or three other zones are calling for heat. Each zone has it's own pump. The issue is, the WM has an internal pump that runs whenever a zone circ. pump is energized by the room thermostst. The boiler pump is causing flow through all zones.
I want to pipe the system so there is flow through individul zones, whereas flow bypasses the zones when the baseboard circ. is not energized.
 
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Old 03-03-17, 03:48 PM
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Do you have 2 Flow/Checks per zone as depicted in figure 11-b on page 31?

http://www.weil-mclain.com/sites/def...4-manual_1.pdf

just some extra thoughts:

…I recently replaced 4 Honeywell Zone valves with 4 Flow Control valves …

…The system is piped with 4 Circulator pumps each being controlled by 4 thermostats..

..The system previously allowed the pumps to run even as the indirect was calling for hot water
That doesn’t sound right does it? It sounds like there was a pump per zone valve. I thought if you had a pump per zone you don’t need zone valves.

I'm sure spott can clarify if so inclined – maybe I’m reading this all wrong ( I'm no expert)– if I'm off on a tangent please excuse!
 

Last edited by zoesdad; 03-03-17 at 06:05 PM. Reason: some extra thoughts
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Old 03-03-17, 07:34 PM
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d,
I understand what you are saying and after looking at the sight zoesdad provided it looks like he is right on target with the 2 flochecks per zone when using pumps.

In your case you have 2 pumps installed in your boiler. A system and a bypass pump. When using ZV's they act as a positive stop when closed which prevents circulation in zones not calling.

When using pumps you need the flocheck to prevent that circulation. In your case the system circulator provided with the boiler runs every time the system calls along with the zone pump.

My guess is after looking at the piping schematic is because of the system pump that is strong enough to open one flocheck is not strong enough because of all the resistance to open two flochecks when installed in accordance with the piping schematic provided. Other than that I believe with only one flocheck as in a conventional system when the system pump runs the FC is forced open and it is because of the factory installed system pump that you need two flochecks.

That is only my thoughts on this problem. That being said as zoesdad pointed out why did you have flochecks with zone valves because they are definitely not needed and more importantly to me is the question of did you switch to pumps just to install the Taco Relay. If it was why didn't you just buy the Taco Relay control made for Zone Valves. They do make the same type of panel for both pumps and zone valves.

Just my thoughts. Add the other flocheck to each zone to solve the problem.
 
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Old 03-24-17, 07:12 AM
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Weil Mclain Gv-5 Series 1

spott,
My boiler has 1 internal circulator. I get flow through all baseboard zones when it comes on in conjunction with any one of the baseboard circ. pumps when a heat call is made. I want to re-pipe the supply lines coming from the boiler to follow the WMclain " closed space tees" configeration. I have a indirect with a three way valve mounted on the supply side of the boiler feeding the indirect. The aquastat when calling shuts off flow to the baseboard and direts flow from the boiler to the indirect. Name:  weil Mclain 1.jpg
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Old 03-24-17, 01:28 PM
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d,
The only gv boiler I could find is gv-series 4 and it shows 2 internal circulators. One system and one bypass.

That being said are you still having the problem with circulation and did you add the additional flochecks and what results are you looking to achieve from the new piping.

Is it possible to post more pics of your system with the pumps and piping and indirect so I can see the layout.

Without knowing what you are trying to accomplish and just wanting to add the bypass you can remove the 2 90's from the supply and return lines at the top and add tees to join the 2 lines. I would put a full port ball valve in between the tees to isolate the 2 lines in case you have to bleed the zones and also to control the flow to the bypass.

Other than that I don't know exactly what you are asking if anything and did you pull the cover off and verify just the 1 pump inside.
 
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Old 03-25-17, 06:48 AM
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Weil Mclain Gv-5 Series 1

spott,
I am getting flow through all baseboard lines whenever a single zone is calling for heat. the circulator inside the WM will run whenever a zone calls which energizes the zone circulator. I want to prevent the flow to travel through the zones that are not calling for heat. I have seen the configeration using close space tees and am considering using that system to accomplish the flow restriction. Will that work? The ball valve is a good idea, as I planned on moving the verticle supply and return lines inward to form the c s tees and elbow the 1" supply and return horizontal lines inward. There is 8" of seperation between the two overhead lines. What considerations would be advised?
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Old 03-25-17, 08:38 AM
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d,
In my opinion it will not accomplish what you want to do. The close tee configuration is used as a bypass setup to temper the water returning to the boiler from the system to prevent condensation or in replacement oil cast iron boilers with high water content systems from cracking when cold return water comes back to the boiler and hits the hot cast sections after the hot water starts to circulate on the initial call for heat.

It does not eliminate flow to the zones, it just diverts some of the water directly back to the boiler for tempering purposes.

The only thing that will stop the flow to unwanted zones are flochecks in each zone because you changed to pumps. With the zone valves you did not need them because they act as positive shutoffs when they are closed and pumps do not.

Where are your flochecks located if you have any. Your pics did not show any.
 
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Old 03-25-17, 09:12 AM
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Weil Mclain Gv-5 Series 1

I removed the zone valves and replaced them with flow check valves to allow me to install a Taco SR-506. The flow checks are on the return side of every baseboard system and the pumps on on the supply side. Prior to that I had a mismatch of Furnas relays that were wired so the indirect was getting flow from the boiler and ALSO allowing the baseboard circ. pumps to operate at the same time. The SR-506 is working great as the indirect is priority and the pumps don't run untill the aqustat is satisfied. The WMclain piping schedule shows only one flow check valve per zone, so that's what I installed.
 
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Old 03-25-17, 12:39 PM
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Can you post the piping schematic pic you used for the piping. I pulled up a series 2 and 3 and 5 and they show 2 FC's and the bypass setup for pumps. I cannot find series 1. It looks like it's obsolete.

On the series 2 it also mentions the manifold size and for 4 pumps they recommend 2" pipe. Too small a header and it could cause heat migration into unwanted zones according to the manual.

I'm just getting this from the manual and I'm assuming it's all because of the internal pump and the fact that you are now using pumps instead of zone valves which is just a straight piping schematic.

I can only imagine that the 2 FC's per zone, 1 before the pump on the supply and 1 on the return line and the bypass connection will restrict the flow enough so it won't travel through unwanted zones until the actual zone pump comes on.

If it turns out you need the other FC you they have them now you can add to your pump instead of cutting into your copper it fits right into the flange of your pump.
 
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Old 03-25-17, 02:33 PM
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It looks like the piping diagram in post #6 shows 2 flow check valves per zone - or does weil mclain have other diagrams which contradict the one in post #6.
 
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Old 03-25-17, 02:54 PM
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z,
Everything I've found shows 2 FC's for that particular boiler. He says his piping showed 1. I wonder if he just looked at a piping schematic for a regular Weil McLain. Hoping he'll post a pic of what he used.
 
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Old 03-25-17, 03:51 PM
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Weil Mclain Gv-5 Series 1

spott, can you show me a model # of the flow control valve that will fit in the Taco Circ. 007 pump flange. Thanks
 
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Old 03-25-17, 04:20 PM
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I used the schematic from the WM site
http://www.weil-mclain.com/sites/def...1-manual_1.pdf
Page 8. which shows 1 flow control valve per zone.
 
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Old 03-25-17, 05:22 PM
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This is from SupplyHouse.com - Plumbing, Heating & HVAC Supplies. If you go to this site you will find the ones listed below. They are both listed to fit the 007 and I can't see any difference except the price. They have a phone number listed at the top of there page you may want to call to make sure you get the right one.

The sku numbers are different and the bottom one looks like it might be for a 0010 but when you click on it and scroll down to specs it lists the 007 also, so it might be best to call.

IFC Replacement Kit for Select Taco "00" Series Cartridge Circulators
SKU: 006-047RP $10.75

SKU: 0010-025RP. This is the number of the other one but I cannot find the difference. $13.75

As far as your piping goes that is the first schematic with only 1 FC. The more I look at this I wonder with that bypass installed, when the internal pump comes on the water will take the path of least resistance and just circulate back to the boiler because of the resistance it would encounter from the FC in the zone itself. Then when you call for heat from a certain zone and only that zone pump comes on along with the internal pump, which runs all the time whenever the boiler runs, it will force the FC open so water can circulate only through that zone.

Again, just my thoughts, but nothing else seems to make sense to me at this point.
 
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Old 03-25-17, 05:38 PM
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Weil Mclain Gv-5 Series 1

The next thing I have is the close space tee's piping that has not been re-plumbed to see if my issue of all zone flow will be resolved. The migration of hot water is really not that big of a problem since my rooms are basically set at the same set points for temps. I just would like the system to function per design.
 
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Old 03-25-17, 06:01 PM
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It looks like if you replace the 90's with 2 tees and if you want to add that ball valve in between just in case you want to isolate the supply from the return you should be good to go. If you wanted to try that first and then if you still have problems add the IFC it might be interesting to see what happens or just add 1 to test it.
 
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Old 03-25-17, 08:00 PM
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stand by. I need to find my documentation on that boiler. Those 3 way valves were problematic on that unit and I usually remove them..

Stand by while I research
 
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Old 03-25-17, 08:48 PM
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Pipe to page 31 diagram 11B here

http://www.weil-mclain.com/sites/def...3-manual_1.pdf

You will need to turn the two ells toward each other in the ceiling here and add two tees. Then two 45's down to the existing pipes to boiler..


[ATTACH=CONFIG]78805[/ATTACH]

Then do away with this 3 way and pipe the indirect with as a separate zone and circ.. Youll have to remove those two tees at bottom of boiler to indirect and add ells.)

Tap off two more tees for the indirect. Add these tees after the close spaced tees. ( Or after that air separator up in the ceiling...


[ATTACH=CONFIG]78806[/ATTACH]


Page 13 figure 3.9. This shows where to pipe the indirect as a zone...( This is the best diagram I could find. even though peerless. WM indirect docs have a lot to be desired.)

http://www.peerlessboilers.com/Deskt...hod=attachment


Make sure you add all flo controls and isolation valves as needed.

I dont know if you changed any wiring for the internal circ or not. but put it back how it was...
 
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Old 03-25-17, 09:20 PM
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After reading the thread thouroghly if you want to try an easy way as was stated, and to see if it works, add the additional flo checks to the pumps..

( I dont like the idea of using the boilers internal pump for the indirect as it is now with that 3 way valve though.) just my opinion though.


Hey what a minute!!!!!!! I knew that boiler looked familiar... sheesh man...

Read troopers post 77...
http://www.doityourself.com/forum/bo...uestion.html#b
 
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