Still no heat in Zone 3!

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Old 03-05-17, 08:23 PM
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Still no heat in Zone 3!

I'm hoping you can help me, as of yesterday my 2nd floor isn't getting baseboard heat (I get hot water for showers), I replaced the expansion tank and the air eliminator when water not air was coming from the valve underneath it. I then bled the second floor and there was some air in the system. Now my psi is around 14 and the temp is around 190. But when setting the thermostat to MAX it kicks in and the lever on my taco valve is loose which is good, but the pipe above it is cool yet when I shut down the thermostat it gets hot but the 2nd floor itself isn't. Plus I notice that the boiler will also shut down after only a couple of minutes because it is hitting the max of 190 but not heating the 2nd floor, yet when I do the same for either my basement or 1st floor the boiler actually stays around 170 and will reach it's set temp.

So I verified my thermostats are fine, voltage on all of the tacos is around 24 when activated, and I even swapped out the tacos for 1st and 2nd floor but only the 2nd floor isn't heating up. Is there something in the taco unit base attached to the copper that isn't opening to allow hot water upwards?? Because if I remove the taco heads and push in the valve I hear the click from the boiler (not sure if coming from circulator?) so I think that's good, right? Plus this baseboard system doesn't have bleeders anywhere on them...

 
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Old 03-05-17, 08:59 PM
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I approved your thread. The spam control kicks in when a member with less than 10 posts tries to post a lot of pictures.

The picture are good.

Allow the boiler to cool. Try temporarily increasing system water pressure. You need higher pressure to bleed the second floor. Allow water in gradually until the system gets up to around 25psi. Try running the second floor only and bleeding air out. Turn the stats down on the other two zones.

Eventually the extra water will need to be drained back out.
You'll want to maintain around 16-18psi.
 

Last edited by PJmax; 03-05-17 at 09:23 PM.
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Old 03-06-17, 05:50 AM
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Thank you pjmax, just so I'm clear (since I have minor knowledge of this), do I keep everything on (power) and all valves open or close everything? I think that has been part of my issue, I'm not entirely sure what is in and out. In the close-up of the 3 zones, do i connect my hose to the spigot that is right above the taco? In pic 3 I see two valve handles and know that the one farthest was controlling water coming in and the one closest simply allowed it to flow into the boiler, correct? I assume the 2 connected to "basement" in one of the closeup pics of the control valves have no impact when bleeding Floor 2? The one near the tankless I'm not even sure what that is for. In the last pic what is that valve handle for actually? You can see in the one above it the pipe simply points down opened with one of those "pressure/water release" valves like the one coming out the back of my boiler...
Having said that, what exactly is inside the taco valve unit connected to the copper? Is it an open/shut thing that maybe isn't working properly?

Thank you again for your fast response!
 

Last edited by Bulldogz; 03-06-17 at 06:37 AM.
  #4  
Old 03-06-17, 09:31 AM
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Maybe that zone is frozen? Its been cold and windy enough down here.
 
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Old 03-06-17, 10:12 AM
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Not sure, but it hasn't been that cold compared to winters past or months past to be honest. Is there anywhere to troubleshoot or backtrack to where it may be the issue?
 
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Old 03-06-17, 10:26 AM
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Well you could shut down your system.Put a short hose to that zones boiler drain into a 5 gal. bucket. Open the b.d. and see how much came out. It should not stop if the feed is on and it makes it all the way thru.
 
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Old 03-06-17, 10:29 AM
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b,
First, you do all your bleeding with the power off. Next you are going to close the valves to all zones except the one your bleeding.

It looks like the middle and right zone have no isolation valves which for bleeding purposes in fine because the zone valves, when closed are positive shut offs and will do the same thing as a ball valve (yellow handle valves).

The zone on the left is split into 2 sections so you will close one ball valve and open the spigot above it to bleed that line and when satisfied do the same to the other side if that is the zone you are having a problem with. If not you can just leave the zone valve closed by shutting off the power to the boiler.

The same procedure applies to the other zones minus the ball valves because I don't see any so you will pressurize the boiler to about 25 -28 psi but DO NOT hit 30 because that is when your relief valve in the back of the boiler will open to relieve the high pressure.

To add pressure to the system for bleeding you will lift up the lever, (bell shaped valve with lever) which puts the feeder in a manual position, and you will hear water feeding into the boiler. When the pressure reaches at least 25 psi you will open the spigot of the zone you want to bleed and leave it open until all the air is out and you get a nice steady stream of water coming out.

When you are satisfied you will close spigot and push down the lever on the feed valve to stop the water from feeding and return it back to auto function.

You must do this almost simultaneously or the boiler may over pressurize and open the relief valve which you don't want.

The procedure is the same for all zones.

After you bled all zones make sure all isolation valves are open, turn on boiler and check for heat.

All that being said when you turned on your stat you said the zone valve opened and the boiler came on for a short time going off on high limit without heating the zone. That description tells me everything is working fine and even if you had some air in that zone the water would still flow through that ZV and the pipe would be hot except if you had a complete blockage in the line somewhere which leads me to believe it's not an air problem but as GUY said, A frozen pipe in that zone.

If it is frozen and you can't find it you can put your zone valve on manual so that any time any other zone calls the hot water will also go to the frozen zone, helping to thaw the pipe or at least you will know when it's thawed when you finally get heat to it.

If you do this keep an eye out for split pipes when thawed. They will obviously not leak when frozen but definitely will when thawed.

Don't worry about what's inside the ZV at this point. Knowing it works is enough for now.

I realize this is long but I hope it helps a little.
 
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Old 03-06-17, 10:35 AM
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Thanks so much guys, do you recommend I turn on all zones including my finished basement to aid in thawing? Because for the 2nd floor (which is the problem) ZV I set it to manual, the thermostat is on 60 like Floor 1 yet it's pipe is cold, while 1 is very hot...
 

Last edited by Bulldogz; 03-06-17 at 10:50 AM.
  #9  
Old 03-06-17, 11:11 AM
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You can run your heat as you normally do. When your heat comes on for any zone it will flow through zone 2 also. If you want more hot water to try to circulate you can turn up your stats.

I would leave zone 2 stat off and ZV open while it's frozen because all it will do is make the boiler and pump run for nothing. Let the other stats do the work until it thaws. Just watch out for splits when it thaws.

You can remove the #1 wire from the zone valve to remove the power when putting it on manual.
 
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Old 03-06-17, 11:28 AM
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I just checked upstairs and found one of my bedrooms in the rear of the house had some heat, so I traced it and it goes into the closet then bathroom next door. The heat appears to lessen in the closet and go cold in the bath, should I apply direct heat?

Also, although I have my downstairs stat on 70 it is taking awhile to get there (been almost 2 hours) when it normally takes 15 minutes or so. Is this because of the issue upstairs? The boiler still shuts down when it hits 190 so it keeps going on and off:

 

Last edited by Bulldogz; 03-06-17 at 12:03 PM.
  #11  
Old 03-06-17, 12:28 PM
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Your trying to heat a lot more space with one zone I think. Try to purge it out first w/Spots instructions.Air or ice you might get lucky. No harm done if it didn't work to try the hair dryer.(fingers crossed) You want to heat it up slowly.
 
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Old 03-06-17, 12:38 PM
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Thank you guyold, my understanding though is that the boiler then needs to be cooled back down to 100 degrees before introducing water back into it via the feeder, no?
 
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Old 03-06-17, 12:38 PM
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No, the open zone valve shouldn't have anything to do with the working zone. it should work normally unless your starting to have a problem in that zone also.

If your pipes are exposed to outside walls or you have a drafty house or your pipes are exposed to drafts somewhere I would run my heat to make sure the water keeps circulating until the weather warms up a little.

If you think you located the frozen pipe and it is accessible you can try some heat but be very careful of fires. I wouldn't use a torch if not in a safe area. Try a hair dryer or maybe a heat gun with low temps. Fires start very easily. A while back a house in town had a plumber come over because of frozen pipes and he used a torch and burned the house down when the area he was working in was loaded with cobwebs and he didn't realize the danger. Went up like a matchbox.

Be Careful.
 
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Old 03-06-17, 12:53 PM
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Thanks spott, no I thought it had something to do with it based on what you said earlier:
If it is frozen and you can't find it you can put your zone valve on manual so that any time any other zone calls the hot water will also go to the frozen zone, helping to thaw the pipe or at least you will know when it's thawed when you finally get heat to it.
I guess I just don't understand why it's now taking so long for my downstairs zone to heat up, normally it does it almost too quickly so we have to decrease it! Long story short, we keep it cool because we have an English Bulldog and literally have the stats at 51 most of the time in winter and I kid you not...at night open our bedroom windows a crack while running a fan!!

Having said that, this house is only 11 years old, never had any issues and always have a yearly boiler service. I just don't fully comprehend why setting a stat to 70 stops and starts because the boiler keeps hitting it's max of 190, shouldn't something be keeping this from happening, like the feeder? Almost everything in the system is newer or replaced (blower, expansion tank, vent above it, assembly).
 
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Old 03-06-17, 01:14 PM
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Your boiler is continuously reaching limit quickly because it is making hot water faster than it can deliver it.

What I would try is turning on 1 zone at a time and see how they react and how they heat up. When the stats are calling start tracing the pipes for the active zone and make sure they are heating throughout the whole zone or if you are getting the same results as the bad zone.

Something sounds like it is going on and it sounds like a piping issue and not mechanical.

You know your stats are working because your ZV's open and your boiler comes on and if your zones are getting normal heat when calling your common pump is working. If all your zones are acting the same way check your circulator. That is your common denominator for all your zones in this case.
 
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Old 03-06-17, 01:25 PM
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B,

On a side note I understand what you are saying about the low temp, fans and open window. I basically have the same situation here but it's not the dog. Even he finds cover. It's like living with a polar bear. I didn't mind at first but I've had a couple surgeries which effected my circulation some and I feel the cold more now.
 
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Old 03-06-17, 01:30 PM
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Again, greatly appreciated! So zone 1 = basement, and that worked fine: turn on stat, wait for heat and all baseboards heated accordingly and equal. Zone 2 = 1st floor and only today has been heating a little slower, i.e. set it to 70 hours ago but only at 63 as of now which is odd. It is increasing but far slower than normal. Zone 3 = upstairs and is the culprit. Like I said earlier the bedroom at the rear of the upstairs house (4 BR, 2 BA upstairs and approx. 11SF) started getting warm while all of the other rooms had no heat. The baseboard goes into a closet, is less warm and then into the spare bathroom where there is very little heat.

if you don't mind me asking, what should I do to test the circulator? I do know it hums when all 3 zones are called so it appears to be working. Any traits about it I should look for? Should it stay on while the boiler is firing?
 
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Old 03-06-17, 03:34 PM
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So I did like you asked spott: no other zones on, boiler at 100 degrees, power off and hose to spigot above far right valve. I then added pressure to the system for bleeding by lifting up the lever, (bell shaped valve with lever) hear d water feeding into the boiler. When the pressure reached 25 psi I opened the spigot of the zone and left it open. There was no air and only got a nice steady stream of water coming out. I closed spigot and pushed down the lever on the feed valve to stop the water from feeding and returned the ZV to auto function.

My gut tells me I'm missing something because the pipe above it was hot while doing this, which if I'm understanding correctly I'm doing a complete loop through the zone and through the boiler. Yet the moment I shut everything down and fired it back up it went cold again. Are you sure based on the pics i shouldn't be closing a yellow handle somewhere? Because the partial heat upstairs can't be air or ice if the water was flowing freely out of the hose, right?
 
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Old 03-06-17, 03:56 PM
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B,
According to your pics there are no other valves that should be closed. With the power shut off all zone valves should be closed.

One question comes to mind when you said you put ZV back to auto. Because your ZV's are on the return they must all be closed, including the zone you are working on. If you had that ZV on manual you could have been draining from the boiler without the water going through the loop.

If that was the case bleed the zone again with the ZV closed to force water through the loop and see if you get the same results.

Unless you get nothing at all let it run for a couple of minutes until it runs completely cold and air free.
 
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Old 03-07-17, 06:28 AM
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That did it spott! Looks like it was just air as we let it run for a few hours and no signs of water anywhere! Thank you for your time and patience (you as well guyold!), I'll be sure to print this out and put it with my home docs.

Is this something you recommend be done yearly for all zones?
 
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Old 03-07-17, 08:06 AM
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B,
Happy to know you're all set.

To answer your question, no, this is not something you need to do on any regularly schedule basis. You have a closed loop system and if bled properly unless opened up or you developed a leak somewhere no air should get into the system.

Fresh water is the boilers worst enemy and when introduced into the system it brings air with it which is why it is important to bleed the proper way. Once the air is removed you want no more fresh water added to the system.

That's the reason for the high pressure at the end of bleeding. It is better to remove a little water to get the proper pressure than to add water at the end to get the pressure you want.
 
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Old 01-22-18, 02:57 PM
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Hi spott, sorry to bother you once more...it appears I'm having somewhat of an issue and not sure how to troubleshoot it. It seems that my 2nd floor water isn't getting really hot all of a sudden, yet I'm getting heat in all the rooms. We have Nest thermostats and they work fine, we have the heat kick in at 4am from low 50s to say, 62 to shower. Now the past week it doesn't get all that hot, so I went downstairs and felt the pipe above the spigot (shown in the pics above as 2nd Fl.). What was odd was that both my first and 2nd floor kick in at the same time and temp in the morning but even an hour later the 1st floor pipe was hot to the touch, while the 2nd floor was just warm...is this air that needs to be purged? I don't understand why the rooms reach temp but none of the water supplies (sinks and both showers upstairs)? Then last night felt it again when we turned the heat up...hot to the touch! It just doesn't make sense that no matter how long we wait now, the shower is cool and we haven't touched anything with the furnace.

Thoughts/suggestions?
 
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Old 01-22-18, 03:19 PM
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At each radiator there should be a chrome looking device that will spurt air occasionally along with a bit of steam or water, not much, adding water is adding air to the system and all the air will travel to the highest point there is, if you have air trapped in the top coils and no way to vent it this will cause what you describe, just as many car engines that require refilling the radiator, if the vent at the systems highest point is not venting all the air accumulates at the highest point, every system I work on in Northern California has a device at each coil that burps a but every now and then, often the paint around it will indicate it has been burping air and a bit of water or some calcium is seen built up around the place it vents. adding water wil add air every time that will migrate up to the highest point and stay there unless vented.
 
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Old 01-22-18, 03:38 PM
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This is baseboard heat, tankless oil burning furnace so no radiators.
 
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Old 01-22-18, 03:41 PM
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Old 01-22-18, 03:57 PM
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Is it inside the mixing valve? I ask because I think I might need to replace the entire thing, as I notice when I turn it the inside nut doesn't really move, is it stripped possibly? There a bunch of calcium buildup on it...



Thanks so much!
 
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Old 01-22-18, 04:07 PM
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B,
It sounds like you are getting heat but little to no domestic hot water(shower).

You have a tankless coil on your boiler (rectangular plate with all the bolts and 2 pipes coming out on top of boiler) that supplies your faucet water which is separate from your heating water.

It is possible to get heat and no hot water due to a limed up coil or defective mixing valve.

If you are getting heat then forget about the stats and ZV's and control.

Your problem could be in your coil if you are running out of hot water in all fixtures. Your tub will show up first because that is the biggest draw compared to just faucets.

If it is just the one shower it could be in your shower valve itself.

What you can do is to get your boiler up to temp and then go to the boiler and feel those 2 pipes coming off of your tankless coil.

One is your cold water feed and the other is your hot water to the fixtures.

While you are at the boiler have someone turn on your tub, just the hot water side. As the tub runs feel the hot pipe on the coil being careful not to get burned. Let the tub run and continue to feel the pipe. If the pipe starts to cool down the coil is your problem and must be cleaned or replaced.

If the pipe stays hot until the boiler comes back on but the tub water is running cool you have a mixing valve (black wheel) on the side of your boiler. Feel the pipe going to the fixtures. If it's coolor luke warm but the pipe coming right off the coil is hot then your mixing valve is defective.

That black wheel is for adjusting the water temp. Check to see if there's any adjustment left, you may be able to turn it up.

If not, you can remove the top and replace the element inside.

If that is the case make sure you shut the cold water off and shut the boiler down and be careful not to get burned.

Long I know but I hope it helps a little.
 
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Old 01-22-18, 04:11 PM
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It's on your right side of boiler facing the burner. Valves off, put a bucket under it. --- Looks like Spot got you covered.Good luck.
 
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Old 01-22-18, 04:36 PM
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Yup, hot and cold off the tankless, follow it to the valve and lukewarm after it on hot side. Should I replace the whole unit or can you simply unscrew and replace innards per guyold's link? How long should I wait after shutting off cold and furnace?
 

Last edited by Bulldogz; 01-22-18 at 04:55 PM.
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Old 01-22-18, 05:35 PM
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The black wheel should turn left and right to increase the temp. Not the knurled nut under the black cap. That is the cap you unscrew to replace the element.

All you need to do is replace the guts as shown in the pic from guyold.

You can do it right away. Just shut the boiler off and then shut the cold water off to the tankless and drain the water from the coil from your drain valve on the coil.

After you shut your cold water off, open your hot water faucets upstairs to let the water drain out of the lines into a bucket from your drain valve so you don't have a mess when you open the mixing valve.

Unscrew slowly to make sure there is no pressure in there and then be careful in case it is still hot inside the valve.

You can use needle nose pliers to get the spring and element out and replace the same way you removed.
 
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Old 01-23-18, 05:18 PM
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Yup, replaced that and also did the one in my shower. So I increased the temp on the black wheel and it's much hotter at all of my taps, both of my showers are "warm" which is good I guess but would they ever get hotter? I did notice though that my temp gauge is at 170 (and I set psi back to around 25 ) when it goes back off, is that fine? Sorry to ask again, how can I increase it to say 180-190?

Not sure what changed exactly though, that mixing valve was actually frozen tight and needed replacing. But is it my understanding with my setup that regardless of house temp, I should still get enough hot water (even though it's delayed somewhat with no water heater) until the furnace kicks in to reheat it? Or is water actually hotter if you turn up your thermostat to give it a "push"?

FYI...we did have a sprinkler system added 2 years ago which is tapped off of our cold, do you think this may be bringing air into the system? I've never had any heating issues beforehand...
 
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Old 01-23-18, 05:34 PM
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B,
First of all your heat in the house has nothing to do with your domestic hot water.

On the front of your boiler you have a gray Honeywell control (aquastat) that has high and low red dials. That is how you turn your temp up and down.

Turn the red dial marked low to 180 and your Hi dial to 200. Your tankless coil has an gpm output based on 180 deg water surrounding it.

You can also turn your mixing valve all the way up to get more hot water if desired.

If you replaced your shower valves they most likely have antiscald limits that can be adjusted if you have the directions.

Lastly, even though everything is new your coil itself might be getting limed up and if that happens sometimes it cannot keep up with the demand in the tub and shower since that is your biggest draw.

Again, go to the basement and have someone turn on the hot water on the tub and check the hot pipe coming right out of the coil before the mixing valve. That should stay hot until the boiler comes on to reheat. If it does check your pipe after the mixing valve for the same thing.

If that stays hot your problem is in your shower valves and needs to be adjusted.

Hope this helps a little.
 
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