Arcoflame oil burner leaking

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  #1  
Old 03-21-17, 07:44 AM
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Arcoflame oil burner leaking

Model DH-5...
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I know, I know...ancient hardware, but I need to stop the leak.

It seems to be coming from where this nipple threads into the case right here...
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...and runs down the bottom of the case. I changed everything up to that nipple because I'm not sure what's on the other side of the case where it threads in.
You can see the white gasket in the background soaked at the bottom with the red fuel oil.

The nipple threads into a separate piece that does actually move a little bit in the slot...
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I know this is old stuff, but has anyone taken one of these apart?

I did find this diagram online that seems to be the same as mine...
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...looks like there is a set screw holding the nipple on the inside.


I wouldn't mind just replacing the whole burner. This one just 'hangs' on a lip instead of being bolted, and the weight of it holds it against the gaskets and the furnace.

Any info would be greatly appreciated! Thank you.
 

Last edited by JP1971; 03-21-17 at 08:00 AM.
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  #2  
Old 03-21-17, 08:59 AM
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hi JP –

I’m not one of the experts here, I’m sure they will be along. I included the link where I think you got the diagram. I can see why you didn’t include the rest of the diagrams, they are mainly illegible – but maybe if it is blow it up enough one of the experts will be able to see something in them.

NEW WEBSITE

It looks to me like maybe what is labeled “B” in the “Identification of Parts” diagram (in the link) and called “Oil Connection” points to the connection point outside the unit that is visible in your pictures. Too bad it is really hard to see that diagram. It looks like what would be on the inside would just be the oil pipe running down to the nozzle. It doesn’t seem like there would be anything to leak inside there. But obviously the oil is coming from somewhere.

If the unit isn’t running properly and the nozzle is getting wet when the unit runs, it seems hard to believe the oil would run all the way back down the pipe and pool around where the pipe enters the unit, i.e. the place where you see the oil coming out.

But obviously it is coming out and I must just be off on a tangent.

Have to see what the experts say.
 
  #3  
Old 03-21-17, 01:53 PM
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JP,
That is not a nipple but the burner assembly that holds the nozzle and electrodes. If you remove the screw from the bottom of the Arcoflame burner plate and carefully remove you canlook inside and see how the electrode wires are attached to the transformer. You may have a side mount transformer on there so you could have plug-in cables or snap-in wires from the assembly to the transformer. Once removed you can slide the assembly right out.

Before sliding the assembly out you must disconnect the oil line at the brass connection. Once removed you will be able to see more of what you have and see what is wet.

More pics of the whole burner if possible.

DO NOT FORGET TO TURN OFF THE POWER FIRST.

Hope this helps a little.
 
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Old 03-21-17, 07:49 PM
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spott...that helps a lot! Thank you and zoesdad for the replies! You guys always have input and I appreciate it.

I would have replied hours ago, but the site wouldn't let me log in...even after numerous password changes I just finally got it to work at 9:45EST...unbelievable.
 
  #5  
Old 03-21-17, 07:56 PM
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This is what the whole furnace looks like spott...

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...from my other thread on here that you and zoesdad chimed in on!
 
  #6  
Old 03-21-17, 08:05 PM
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There is a temporary problem with the log-ins and the IT guys are working on it.
 
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Old 03-22-17, 08:29 AM
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I tried many times to upload one of your pics here. I put 2 arrows on the pic, but every time I try to upload any pic – it fails. Don’t know what is going on. No error message, just ignored.

spott knows more than me about this but what I was trying to do is confirm where the leak is on the bottom pic in post #1. Is the leak right where the pipe goes into that silver plate (cover) or is it a little to the right where you can see the blue tape (not the blue tape to the far right)?

Is that blue tape wrapped around threads?
 
  #8  
Old 03-22-17, 01:29 PM
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JP,
Just a little follow up.

Is the leak coming from the coupling side or the burner side. You should never use Teflon on any oil line fittings. Even if it's not the problem it tends to break apart and could end up in the pump.

Next, that set screw you showed in the diagram is NOT to be loosed. Your assembly is attached to the metal piece and will come out in one piece. That set screw when loosed will change the assembly settings which you DO NOT want to do. It is labeled an alignment block on your diagram. Keep it in tact.

If the leak is coming from the coupling end get rid of the tape for some good pipe dope and change that coupling. Those steel coupling are very unreliable and leak. Get a better quality coupling.
 
  #9  
Old 03-22-17, 01:42 PM
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I labeled a diagram for easier discussion.

From what I'm getting.... the oil leak is inside the housing and running out where the pipe comes thru the case..... at A.

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  #10  
Old 03-22-17, 01:58 PM
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Thanks PJ.
If the leak is coming from the casing you're going to have to pull the assembly and check to see what is wet. It could be something as simple as a nozzle problem to a bad oil pump seal.
 
  #11  
Old 03-23-17, 06:20 AM
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Guys...thank you very much for the replies, I really appreciate it!

I just reset my password again and was able to log in!

Anyway...spott...I'm not sure where it's coming from. I didn't have any thread sealant/pipe dope, so I used the tape. I will re-do the connections with some pipe dope, but it was leaking before I did any of that...so maybe from the inside? Wherever it's coming from, it's running down and soaking the white flange gasket.

Can I change the pipe that exits the case?...A in the pic above (thank you PJ!)...and of course the coupler to my new brass fittings.

I changed the nozzle when we cleaned the furnace a couple months ago...what kind of nozzle problem are you referring to?

I was thinking of just changing the pump if it's not crazy money.

Thanks again guys!
 
  #12  
Old 03-23-17, 12:02 PM
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Was it leaking before the nozzle change? Nozzle problems I was referring to was a loose nozzle, wrong angle spray so the spray hits the end cone and does not burn but stays in the tube.

As I stated earlier that is not just a pipe but is the line that houses the nozzle and holds the electrodes. It is the nozzle assembly. That may have a crack in it or you may have a bad or loose nozzle adaptor on the end from when you changed the nozzle.

If you can find one then you can replace just that line but that burner was from back in the 70's. That's when American Standard was making boilers. I don't know where you would find one unless someone on e-bay might have one.

In order to replace just the pipe you must find one the same length as the one you have. The length is specific to that tube it fits into. If you remove that one and measure it to get the length.

That being said I've only seen a couple of bad tubes and I doubt if that's your problem. I would more likely suspect the pump or something loose when the nozzle was changed.

How did you get the assembly out the first time to change the nozzle.

You can change the whole burner if you want instead of replacing the boiler as an option.

I happened to come across this from another site and thought I would share it.

Anybody out there know where I can find a manual for a 1970's Arcoflame oil burner. The guys at American standard couldn't stop laughing when I called looking for one.
 
  #13  
Old 03-23-17, 12:49 PM
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It was leaking before the nozzle change.
I also changed the pump screen and gasket at the same time, so I know that the round, 8 bolt cover is not leaking.

When I changed the nozzle, I just removed the whole unit from the furnace and set it on a rim, then just swapped the nozzle for a new one.
The nozzle is accessible right at the end of the tube that goes into the furnace.

I read that quote when I originally searched my burner! hahaha
 
  #14  
Old 03-23-17, 01:01 PM
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The nozzle sits right inside where the arrow is pointing...

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Old 03-23-17, 01:07 PM
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I have to admit that's a novel approach for a nozzle change. You are going to have to remove the assembly though to find the leak. I would check the pump first it may be the pump seal leaking on the inside.

When you pulled the burner was the end cone wet. That should be fairly clean and dry.

Carlin used to make a burner that hinged on the boiler like yours does. It's just a type of bracket but they're the only one that made it at the time.
 
  #16  
Old 03-23-17, 02:21 PM
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I honestly didn't notice if it was dry in there when I changed the nozzle.
I plan to get into it this Saturday, so I will let you know what I find.

Thanks again for all the info! I really appreciate it.
 
  #17  
Old 03-25-17, 09:56 PM
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I had to work today so I wasn't able to work on my burner...hopefully next Saturday
 
  #18  
Old 04-01-17, 02:37 PM
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I was able to take apart my burner today...but before I did, I went to my local plumbing supply and bought 2 more insulation cushions and per spott's recommendation some 'pipe dope'...

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Looking into the end of the metal blast tube that sits inside the combustion chamber, if you look closely, you can see a fuel oil drop right where the nozzle threads into the coupler to the fuel feed tube, and also on the metal plate in the background that supports the electrodes...

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Nozzle and coupler removed and cleaned up...

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...on the end of the fuel feed tube in this pic, you can see the remnants of what was the original pipe sealant...

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(I didn't mess with that connection when I changed the nozzle a few months ago)



I took a couple pics to show what spott was explaining in his post (#12)...

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I also resealed this outside connection with pipe dope as spott suggested...

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So far, so good...nothing wet underneath yet...

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  #19  
Old 04-01-17, 05:50 PM
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JP,
When you changed it this time did you remove just the assembly or from the front of the burner again.

When you change the nozzle, now that you know what you are looking at, always use 2 wrenches. 1 on the adaptor(9/16) and 1 on the nozzle(5/8) to prevent what I suspected happened the first time. When you loosened the nozzle the adaptor came loose also.

I'm not sure of the cost but if you plan on doing your own nozzle changes and not remove the assembly they make a nozzle wrench that secures the adaptor and nozzle at the same time if the 2 wrenches are a problem.

http://www.heatingandcoolingwarehous...os/34478-2.jpg

Good luck, hope things work out. Looks like you found the problem.
 
  #20  
Old 04-01-17, 06:02 PM
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Sorry to join so late (having 'puter trouble). If you look at where the brass flare adapter goes into the steel coupling, you will see the threads are bottomed out (also on the other side of the coupling). This is an indication of the coupling treads being cut too deep. You will likely have oil leaks on both sides. The coupling is likely not a true coupling but rather a "thread protector". If there is no gap between the threads from each end, it is not a coupling. If you haven't already, I suggest replacing the nozzle adapter.
 
  #21  
Old 04-01-17, 06:10 PM
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Looking at post #18 pic 2:

Does it look like that electrode is way out of line? It looks to me like it is way out of adjustment. Seems like it should be much closer to a line extending straight out from the center of the nozzle.

I also see there is no tip on that electrode, but if I understand correctly you can run with electrodes with the tips gone (tech left mine flat like that before I replaced them, but I think an expert on this forum said it’s not the end of the world if the electrode tip is no more).

Maybe the alignment is OK - I'm no expert but maybe something to measure if anyone could find the specs. Just a thought!
 
  #22  
Old 04-01-17, 06:38 PM
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Not having points on the electrodes isn't ideal but I've seen thousands of them a lot worse than these.
From the picture I can't tell about the electrode spacing but on those burners I've always used the old Beckett specs of 7/16" above nozzle center, 1/16 ahead of the nozzle face, & 5/32" gap.
 
  #23  
Old 04-01-17, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by spott
JP,
When you changed it this time did you remove just the assembly or from the front of the burner again.
I removed what I call the 'blast tube' it covers the nozzle/electrode assembly. Everything is exposed with it removed.

Originally Posted by spott
When you change the nozzle, now that you know what you are looking at, always use 2 wrenches. 1 on the adaptor(9/16) and 1 on the nozzle(5/8) to prevent what I suspected happened the first time. When you loosened the nozzle the adaptor came loose also.
That's very possible...I didn't have everything exposed and more than likely disturbed the adapter, so that's just asking for a leak.
Like you said...I know what's in there now, so it's not so intimidating.

Originally Posted by spott
I'm not sure of the cost but if you plan on doing your own nozzle changes and not remove the assembly they make a nozzle wrench that secures the adaptor and nozzle at the same time if the 2 wrenches are a problem.

http://www.heatingandcoolingwarehous...os/34478-2.jpg

Good luck, hope things work out. Looks like you found the problem.
Thanks very much...and thank you for your input in this thread. I really appreciate it!
I hope I found the problem, I'll keep you posted.

That is a pretty cool little tool!...I may have to get one.
 

Last edited by JP1971; 04-01-17 at 09:16 PM.
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Old 04-01-17, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Grady
Sorry to join so late (having 'puter trouble). If you look at where the brass flare adapter goes into the steel coupling, you will see the threads are bottomed out (also on the other side of the coupling). This is an indication of the coupling treads being cut too deep. You will likely have oil leaks on both sides. The coupling is likely not a true coupling but rather a "thread protector". If there is no gap between the threads from each end, it is not a coupling. If you haven't already, I suggest replacing the nozzle adapter.
Thank you for the post, sir!
I'm not exactly sure what you are referring to, but it sounds like you are saying to replace the steel coupler on the outside of the case that my new brass pieces connect to...and the steel fuel feed tube that runs inside to the adapter and nozzle...or just the nozzle adapter itself?
 
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Old 04-01-17, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by zoesdad
Looking at post #18 pic 2:

Does it look like that electrode is way out of line? It looks to me like it is way out of adjustment. Seems like it should be much closer to a line extending straight out from the center of the nozzle.

I also see there is no tip on that electrode, but if I understand correctly you can run with electrodes with the tips gone (tech left mine flat like that before I replaced them, but I think an expert on this forum said it’s not the end of the world if the electrode tip is no more).

Maybe the alignment is OK - I'm no expert but maybe something to measure if anyone could find the specs. Just a thought!
I know I didn't touch the electrodes at all, but I will check the measurements. It's been running fine (other than the leak) so there was no reason to mess with them...if it ain't broke...
 
  #26  
Old 04-02-17, 10:13 AM
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Give Up On This Looser

The Aeroflame is a low efficiency, smokey a 50+ technology, pre retension head burner than can be replaced for $200 with modern Beckett AFG providing quick payback in fuel savings.

beckett afg oil burner unit | eBay

Pick one with oil solenoid and modern control (not the older Honeywell 8184 seen on some).

Good burners are available in the summer when they are pulled converting to gas. Last year paid $90 for one on eBay. Figured parts alone (pump, motor, ignitor, control) were worth it. Unit works great so keeping as a working, plug in spare.
 

Last edited by doughess; 04-02-17 at 11:12 AM.
  #27  
Old 04-02-17, 04:02 PM
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Thanks for the reply doughess, I appreciate it!

I would love to replace my burner with a newer, more updated unit...but, that's where I get overwhelmed with what to look for. So thank you for the link! It's a good first step.
 
  #28  
Old 04-02-17, 07:31 PM
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No drips on the floor...but...I looked at the bottom of the case today and there were makings of 2 drips hanging on.
I did a black glove test to all the external fittings and all were dry. Then I did under the flange where the pump bolts up, and found this...

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...I'm guessing there's a pump or shaft seal in that area?...or maybe I could change the whole pump?
 
  #29  
Old 04-03-17, 05:18 AM
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The oil could be coming from the shaft seal, either end of the nozzle adapter, or what's called "after drip" which is a tiny amount of fuel drips from the end of the nozzle after the burner shuts down. Disconnect the pump & remove it from the burner body then inspect around the pump shaft. If that area is dry, you've eliminated a seal problem.
 
  #30  
Old 04-03-17, 11:03 AM
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JP,
When you did the work the other day you said you didn't remove the assembly from the burner. When that assembly is removed you can see and have access to the inside of the casing where oil had been accumulating over time due to your leak. My guess is even though you repaired your leak you still had oil in the burner casing that was not wiped clean and when the burner comes on the air from the fan moves that oil through any openings and out the bottom.

I'm not saying that you positively do not have a pump seal leak but I wouldn't panic just yet. It sounds like you are nervous about removing the assembly but unfortunately at some point it will have to be done and then you can completely wipe everything down inside and will get a better sense of what is going on.

My suggestion in the meantime until you get your courage up, keep wiping the bottom of the casing and keep an eye on it and if it is residual oil, eventually it will be dry. If not you will have to open it up to locate the problem.

As far as pulling the pump at this stage with the little oil you found may be a little drastic. If it was the seal with a 100 psi of pressure from the pump you would have a lot more oil leaking than what you found so far.

This is just my thoughts on the pump removal at this time
 
  #31  
Old 04-03-17, 07:14 PM
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Grady and spott...guys, thanks very much for your input here, I really appreciate it!

It seems that either way I'm going to have to take the burner outside, put it on a bench, disassemble it, and clean it thoroughly...and at the same time of course, inspect the shaft seal.
I think that will be better than me trying to fix this thing a few inches off the floor.

I won't be able to mess with it until the weekend, but in the meantime like spott said, I'll just keep wiping it and see if it goes away. I can only wish it will be that easy, but I'm not holding my breath.
Stay tuned, I'll keep you posted!
 
  #32  
Old 07-18-18, 09:48 AM
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Hi guys...it’s been a while, hope you are all well!
My burner is still leaking as I haven’t had time to remove it and apply the suggestions from spott and Grady.


I have another route I can possibly take, but I wanted to run it by you guys on here that know WAY more about this stuff than I do...

I may be able to get a much newer (about 8 years old) steam boiler for free. I am told that it is possible to convert it to hot water.
Can any of you shed some light on this?...what would I have to do to use it?...is it even worth it?

This is the unit in question...




Thank you for any comments, suggestions, advice, etc!
 
  #33  
Old 07-18-18, 11:43 AM
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The Weil-Mclain is almost certainly WAY bigger than your old ArcoFlame. What is the firing rate (nozzle size) on the old boiler?
 
  #34  
Old 07-18-18, 12:07 PM
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The only difference between a steam boiler and a hot water boiler is that the controls for each are proprietary and the hot water boiler is flooded and the steam boiler is not. They are both the same. Only the warranty is different. Remove the old unit, set the new unit in place, pipe and wire it up, switch controls, turn on the water, and "Shazam" you are done.
 
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Old 07-18-18, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Grady
The Weil-Mclain is almost certainly WAY bigger than your old ArcoFlame. What is the firing rate (nozzle size) on the old boiler?
I'm not positive...I want to say 85 for some reason. I can check when I get home.
 
  #36  
Old 07-18-18, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Steamboy
The only difference between a steam boiler and a hot water boiler is that the controls for each are proprietary and the hot water boiler is flooded and the steam boiler is not. They are both the same. Only the warranty is different. Remove the old unit, set the new unit in place, pipe and wire it up, switch controls, turn on the water, and "Shazam" you are done.
Really?...that's all there is to it?

That would be great if it's really that simple. I would probably get new controls if they are not crazy money.
 
  #37  
Old 07-18-18, 02:16 PM
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Be sure to check that firing rate. The firing rate on the Weil-Mclain is 1.45 gallons per hour.
 
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Old 07-18-18, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Grady
Be sure to check that firing rate. The firing rate on the Weil-Mclain is 1.45 gallons per hour.
I was a little off...

 
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Old 07-18-18, 07:43 PM
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Old 07-18-18, 07:52 PM
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The Weil-McLain has a little bit higher firing rate...Grady, please tell me what effect this will have in comparison to the Arcoflame.

Thank you!
 
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