Burnham MPO-IQ84 Install

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Old 03-25-17, 08:06 AM
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Burnham MPO-IQ84 Install

I decided to get an Burnham MPo-IQ84 66k BTU boiler. The whole process of choosing th boiler and other information is located in this thread

I have purchased the boiler and I want to get everything prepped before it gets here. It is still cold here in NH so I can't dis-connect the old boiler right now. However I want to get all the little piece parts I will need.

In the installation manual it calls for a Supply Valve on the supply side just above the boiler and on the return side it calls for a Shutoff Valve. Are these just 1 1/2" ball valves? Do I need these if I am not using the boiler bypass? On the supply side it calls for a purge valve. Is this just a drain valve similar to the one on the upper right hand corner of this pic?

I'm sure I will have more questions but that's it for now.
 
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Old 03-26-17, 09:49 AM
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I guess I should also ask... Do I need a boiler bypass? From reading it seems like this is biasing flow to/away from the boiler??
 
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Old 03-26-17, 11:40 AM
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. " The MPO-IQ is designed to withstand thermal shock from return water temperatures as low as 100F, but prolonged return temperatures of below 135F can cause excessive flue gas condensation and damage the boiler and/or venting system. Use a boiler bypass if the boiler is to be operated in a system which has a large volume or excessive radiation where low boiler water temperatures may be encountered (i.e. converted gravity circulation system, etc.) The bypass should be the same size as the supply and return lines with valves located in the bypass and return line as illustrated in Figures 13A and 13B in order to regulate water flow for maintenance of higher boiler water temperature."

As far as the supply and shutoff valves go, if you look at the diagram the symbol for the supply, shutoff and bypass are different than the symbol for the ball valve. They may be looking for gate valves in those locations because of the ability to control flow better.

Personally, I don't see the harm in using ball valves on the supply and return because they should be fully open anyway when the system is in operation and use a gate valve on the bypass line to better control the flow between supply and return.

That being said, there may be a reason why they recommend this piping schematic.

Every boiler company wants there boiler piped there own way and just speaking for myself before I did an install I looked at what the company wanted and if I had any questions I got in touch with them to get them answered.

As far as valves go at times I've been accused of putting in too many by my peers but as far as I'm concerned you cannot have too many. My policy was to be able to isolate any future problem areas to save time and labor if a problem arises.

For example, before and after each pump or zone valve to isolate them in case of repairs so you don't have to drain the system. On the supply and return to isolate the boiler from the system in case repairs have to be made to the boiler you won't have to drain the system.

Fresh water is a boilers worst enemy and the less you have to replace the better off you are not to mention the bleeding after refilling the system.

I was never partial to after hours service calls so that was the way I worked so if I had to go, it would be fairly quick, but some of my fellow tradesmen did not agree and loved the after hours calls because that's where the money was and the longer it took the better they liked it.

My point to this rambling is use common sense when installing your boiler. Since your planning and laying out this job yourself make any maintenance or repairs as easy as possible.

Hope this helps a little.
 
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Old 03-26-17, 02:34 PM
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Smile

Ok ok I'll read the dang manual! On the ball valves, I am assuming all of them need to be full port? I see that the on called out in the manual calls for a full port valve. On the gate valve, is this one ok?
 
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Old 03-26-17, 03:34 PM
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h,
I honestly have never heard of that brand before but that doesn't mean it's not good. My only suggestion is to buy quality valves. They will pay for themselves in the end.
 
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Old 03-26-17, 03:46 PM
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What is the gate valve used for? Gate valves can be troublesome and ball valves seem to have taken over for isolation service, at least in my mind. For throttling, globe valves are preferred.
 
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Old 03-26-17, 05:45 PM
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What is the gate valve used for? Gate valves can be troublesome and ball valves seem to have taken over for isolation service, at least in my mind. For throttling, globe valves are preferred.
This is used for throttling the flow on the bypass circuit. Thanks for the tip I will look at some globe valves. Here is a pic of NJT's install of the same boiler. The vertical tube with the valve in the middle is the one I am talking about.
 
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Old 03-27-17, 07:07 AM
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In the photo, the three valves with blue handles are globe valves. The valves with yellow handles are ball valves. A decent hardware store will have ball valves of various sizes, but you may have to order globe valves.

For hydronic heating, there is no need to use lead-free valves, fittings, or solder, but they are OK to use.
 
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Old 03-27-17, 08:45 AM
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gilmorrie, for the globe valves... I see a lot of information on when to use a hard seat ball valve vs a soft seat ball valve. For ball valves it looks like hard seats are used for (among other things) high temperatures and when the media is abrasive. I am assuming that this translates to globe valves as well? There is very little price difference between a hard seat and soft seat globe valves. Which do you guys prefer for an application like mine? Also why are gate valves problematic? There are more flow losses across a globe valve as compared to a gate valve so I'm curious what the downsides are to the gate valve.

spott, what are some valve brands that you would recommend?
 
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Old 03-27-17, 12:18 PM
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Gate valves are prone to getting stuck open or shut if not exercised regularly. They also don't shut off as tightly as a globe or ball valve.

As far as hard or soft seats for ball valves, I would stick to the normal, Teflon seats that are readily available.
 
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Old 03-27-17, 12:25 PM
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Also, neither gate nor ball valves are suitable for throttling. Globe valves are suitable for throttling. I believe the valves in question are used for throttling, right?
 
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Old 03-27-17, 12:50 PM
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As far as hard or soft seats for ball valves, I would stick to the normal, Teflon seats that are readily available.
I was planning on getting the regular soft seats (teflon seats) for the ball valves. What about the globe valves? Do you recommend soft or hard seats for those?

I believe the valves in question are used for throttling, right?
Yes these will be used for throttling.

Thank you for the info on the gate vs globe valves.
 
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Old 03-27-17, 02:54 PM
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As far as the seats on globe valves: small, inexpensive, low-pressure globe valves used for residential hydronic heat are likely to have hard, metallic seats that are integral with the valve body. The disc, on the other hand, may likely have a Teflon or neoprene washer that is replaceable. Just go with whatever brass globe valves that are readily available.

What if the seat somehow wears out, you may ask? By that time, it probably won't be your problem. But, if the seat somehow becomes totally shot, replace the valve. Maybe the seat could be lapped, but for a $10 valve, why bother? Even with a worn seat, the valve can probably still serve fine for throttling
 
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Old 03-29-17, 01:06 PM
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This is the same boiler installed by NJT? He had some significant issues with heavy condensation in his chimney flue. It was described as coming down like rain and water was running out hither and yon. It was undoubtedly caused by the replacement boiler being much more efficient than the original boiler - which translates into lower stack temperatures. I recall that NJT wound up pulling a smaller liner into the original liner to try to boost the flue gas temperature. I don't remember hearing if that solved the problem. There may be other solutions, too.
 
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Old 03-29-17, 06:29 PM
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Yes it is the same. In the previous thread (link on first post) we discussed my chimney and this very issue. I am aware that I can potentially remove some baffles in order to increase temps if needed. Although if I run into this I may just go the liner route because it could potentially allow me to run the outdoor air intake kit. I don't think I would run that kit without a liner based on the conversations I have had with others on this forum. I have good access to the chimney cleanout so I can check to see if there is condensation "coming down like rain..."
 
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Old 03-30-17, 05:40 PM
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Ball valves are OK on the piping. What type of radiation do you have? How many zones in your home? You may not need the bypass unless you have a large water volume system on a single zone.
The boiler has an injection tube which you will install on the boiler during the installation. This will act somewhat as a bypass unless you have a very large water volume system. If you have zoned cast iron radiation or coppertube baseboard no bypass is required. Make sure your piping follows the changes from 1958. Install circulator's on the supply's after the expansion tank connection. If newer boilers are installed with circulator's on the return that would be according to pre-1958 standards which many are today.
When the boiler is installed you will need to get it set-up. The CO2 should be 11.5 to 12% and the draft at the brass plug in the rear should be "0".
 
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Old 03-31-17, 08:57 AM
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What type of radiation do you have? How many zones in your home?
I have three zones. It is all copper baseboard, with one cast iron radiator. I have 47K BTU of baseboard plus the radiator. I expect to add some more baseboard to bring me to around 56k BTU.

Make sure your piping follows the changes from 1958. Install circulator's on the supply's after the expansion tank connection.
This is how the schematic from Burnham says to do it, that is what I plan on doing.

When the boiler is installed you will need to get it set-up. The CO2 should be 11.5 to 12% and the draft at the brass plug in the rear should be "0"
Thank you I was eventually going to ask this question.
 
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Old 03-31-17, 09:00 AM
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What type of thread sealant do you guys recommend for the black pipe? I have heard blue block or rectorseal named the most on this forum. I have also heard to use teflon tape making sure that the first couple of threads have no tape on them, then thread sealant on top of the tape.
 
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Old 03-31-17, 05:07 PM
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The problem is that it is often called, labeled, marketed, or advertised as "thread sealant." It isn't. It is a thread lubricant that allows greater torqueing of a threaded joint. The leak tightness comes about by the interference fit of standard tapered threads of plumbing joints. Buttering up a joint with both "sealant" and Teflon tape is not helpful. I don't recommend it, but you could accomplish the same thing with a little WD-40.

Normal pipe dope also makes it easier to loosen a threaded joint years in the future.

For years, I've used Ace Hardware's "Pipe Thread Compound and TFE Paste," a.k.a., Teflon. It is economical, readily available, and inexpensive.
 
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Old 03-31-17, 06:15 PM
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The leak tightness comes about by the interference fit of standard tapered threads of plumbing joints.
I know that NPT threads "should" be self sealing. My concern is the quality of the pipe. I am most likely sourcing the pipe from Home depot or my local hardware store, so I don't really know what the quality will be. I have heard that imported pipe can cause a lot of problems, but I am not sure how I ensure that I am NOT getting imported pipe. So I guess my question is should I be concerned about imported vs non-imported pipe? If I should be concerned with this, where can I source pipe from? What material is black pipe? Is it iron or steel? I can get steel schedule 40 pipe in 8ft lengths made to ASTM A733 from Mcmaster Carr here is the link.

On Another note, I ordered the A Grundfos Alpha circulator. I want to get these for it. My question is that I was planning on re-using my current air scoop that is 1 1/4" (everything after the air scoop is 1 1/4" until the 3/4" zones tee off of that). So I would run 1 1/2" black pipe up to the air scoop, reduce it to 1 1/4". Does this sound ok or should I buy a new 1 1/2" air scoop as well AND buy 1 1/2" isolation valves for teh pump, then reduce it down.
 
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Old 04-01-17, 12:41 AM
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So-called "black" or "black iron" pipe is made of steel. Generally nothing wrong with foreign steel, it is the sloppy threads that are the problem. Few of the big box mega-mart homecenters change the cutting dies on their pipe machines often enough and cutting threads with dull dies causes the thread to be torn rather than cut.

I've heard that stupid saying about how it is the taper in pipe threads that makes the seal for most of my life. It just plain is NOT true. The idea may be true IF the threads were perfectly cut but I've been playing with pipe threads for more than sixty years and I have NEVER seen a perfectly cut thread. That predates any Asian-made fittings or threads so it isn't just a recent problem.

Sealants/lubricants (they perform BOTH functions) have always been used as is evidenced by remarks in century-old plumbing textbooks.

Lots of professional pipefitters use both Teflon tape and a paste-type sealant but my personal opinion is that doing so is more to assuage their conscience knowing the threads are only borderline okay. Use just a paste-type sealant containing Teflon OR Rectorseal number 5. Make up the joint tight using the proper sized wrenches, no less than an 18 inch on 1-1/4 inch pipe and a 24 inch wrench on 1-1/2 inch pipe. You need to put a little muscle into it, not just slighty more than hand tight.

Your current 1-1/4 inch "air scoop" should be okay but be sure to use a sufficient length of straight pipe before and after the fitting itself. A minimum of five pipe diameters before and after the fitting and ten diameters before with five diameters after is preferred. The object is to have a laminar flow into and out of the air eliminator.
 
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Old 04-01-17, 07:08 AM
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A minimum of five pipe diameters before and after the fitting and ten diameters before with five diameters after is preferred. The object is to have a laminar flow into and out of the air eliminator.
After looking at the current setup in the basement, if I come straight up from the boiler with the pipe and do a 90 at the ceiling so it is a straight shot to the zone valves there is only about 30" after the 90. I could either add a jog on the way up to the ceiling to create more length or move the boiler farther over so that the vent pipe is angled not straight up and down to the chimney. In any event, I think I should probably get a new air eliminator that allows a shorter distance. Will this webstone one work?
 
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Old 04-01-17, 07:49 AM
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...there is only about 30" after the 90.
So what's the problem? Five pipe diameters of 1-1/2 inch pipe is 7-1/2 inches. Fifteen diameters (ten before and five after) would be 22-1/2 inches. That would leave 7+ inches for the air eliminator fitting.
 
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Old 04-01-17, 08:06 AM
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Sorry I should have been more descriptive. Assuming I go straight up from the boiler then add a 90 at the ceiling. From the elbow to the zone valves I would have to fit a full port valve, air separator, temp gauge and pump. The pump width flange to flange is 6.5", then I have the isolation valves... Thats why I am thinking I really don't have the room for a standard air eliminator.
 
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Old 04-01-17, 05:44 PM
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If you are going to use ODR I would update to a better air separator. Cooler water is harder to eliminate the air. Micro-bubblers cause much more turbulence within the air separator and will do a better job of air elimination.
 
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Old 04-03-17, 06:34 PM
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Just when I think I have everything I need...

I was thinking about how the black pipe pieces fit together and I think I hit a snag. To do the boiler bypass, I basically have two vertical pipes joined together with a horizontal pipe. In detail I have two tees on each side that join the vertical and horizontal runs. The horizontal run consists of two threaded pipes and a globe valve. On the horizontal run how the heck is this assembled? Do I need to use a union?

I have all the parts (except unions!) here and the boiler is arriving Friday.
 
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Old 04-04-17, 06:36 AM
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Yes, you need a union to make that horizontal connection. You may need more than one to complete the job.

My Burnham ES-2 that is similar to the MPO has three unions. One in the bypass piping and one each on the vertical supply and return connections to the boiler. Those last two may just be there to make removing the boiler easier if necessary without having to break down all the piping.
 
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Old 04-04-17, 06:47 AM
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Ok I found two 1 1/2" unions at the local hardware store so that should do it.

My next question, what is the best method for cutting the pipe? I was just going to use my chop saw as it should give a pretty square cut for threading.
 
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Old 04-04-17, 07:09 PM
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Make sure you keep the bypass valve closed or your boiler will short cycle. The bypass is needed on large water volume boilers.
 
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Old 04-06-17, 08:47 AM
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Make sure you keep the bypass valve closed or your boiler will short cycle. The bypass is needed on large water volume boilers.
Understood. My main reason for putting this in is just in case. However, if you don't think I need it, I may not put it in. The boiler came today and after seeing how it is going to fit, I think it is going to be a lot easier to leave the bypass out.

I ordered it from Supplyhouse.com and they include free freight shipping with a liftgate. I built a ramp into my basement (there is one step from the dirt driveway into the basement). The truck driver and I were able to get it up to the house on the pallet jack from the street. I was able to use a dolly and some muscle and got it in the basement myself. It is pretty darn heavy, but the ramp really helped.
 
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Old 04-08-17, 05:47 AM
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Progress....

The old boiler is out! The new one is in place. First I drained all the water out. I ran a hose from the boiler drain to the driveway. If you have a nice driveway, be advised of leaving a rust stain. Luckily mine is dirt. Taking the old boiler out, I had to add ceiling supports to the supply and return pipes at the ceiling. I cut parts of them off. There are virtually no supports and pretty much the only thing holding all of the copper pipes up were the main supply and return lines to the boiler. Note to self: Expansion tanks are full of water and very heavy, unthreading one without holding up the tank is not advised. It fell off at the last thread took out everything below it. I went to pick it up from the floor by the valve thereby opening it. I was looking down at it and got a nice facefull of rusty water.

I will post some pics when I have a few more minutes.
 
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Old 04-08-17, 10:13 AM
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It seems you've learned the same lesson as most of us who have ever removed an expansion tank have learned & the same way. Trust me, it's one of those lessons you won't forget anytime soon.
 
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Old 04-13-17, 11:50 AM
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Ok so here are some pics... I still have more to do but it is getting there. I thought I would have more time last weekend but we had some family committments. i hope to finish it up this weekend.

Here is the old boiler. It was serviced last year and I was told it had a cracked liner... It really had a cracked combustion chamber and there was no liner left. The bottom had totally rotted away which was not readily apparent with the sheetmetal shell on.

Here is the new boiler still halfway in the crate. I built a ramp into the basement to be able to easily get it into the basement.

Here is the way you can get this off the pallet, this is in the installation manual! Pretty slick.

Here are all the fittings all cleaned and ready to install


Here is a pic of the bypass mostly done.

I'll post more pics later.
 
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Old 04-13-17, 03:49 PM
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Is it ok to string together the isolation valves, micro bubble air eliminator and pump like this?
 
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Old 04-18-17, 03:55 AM
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I have one fitting left and the plumbing will be done! I have system filled and pressurised. I did find a couple leaks, but I was able to tighten the fitttings and now there are no more leaks. I forgot to put in the little plastic one way valve on the inlet side of the Grunfos Alpha pump. It says that this is optional, do I need to put this in? The wiring is next....
 
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Old 04-21-17, 08:23 AM
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I need some help on the wiring! I have a single circulator pump and 3 zone valves. My previous wiring worked like this:
Name:  2017-04-21_11-01-20.jpg
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It looks like the 24V transformer is built into the new boiler. Here is the wiring diagram for the new boiler:Name:  2017-04-21_11-07-03.jpg
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Right now I still have the old wires going to the old transformer and the wires coming back from the thermostats/zone valves. It seems like I just need to remove the old transformer and the wires going from the old transformer to the zone valves/tsats. Then just connect the wires coming from the zone valves/tstats and connect them to the T/T terminals on the boiler?
 
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Old 04-21-17, 03:23 PM
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H,
The transformer that comes with the boiler is not made to run the zone valves but just the 24V circuits on the boiler. The zone valves need there own transformer and if you have Taco ZV's you can only put 3 to a 40VA transformer which is most likely what you have now.

If you have more than 3 ZV's you must get another transformer or replace the 40VA with a 75VA to handle the load.

By the way, your old boiler also had a 24V transformer on the boiler which was for the TT circuit on the boiler.

Your ZV's will be wired the same way as the old setup.

Hope this helps a little.
 
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Old 04-21-17, 05:05 PM
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Spott,

Thanks. thats exactly what I needed to know. I'll wire it up the same way. With some luck I'll be firing it up tomorrow. I'll be checking CO2, O2, stack temp and breech pressure. I'm sure if I need to dial these in i'll be back for help.
 
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Old 04-22-17, 10:07 AM
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Ok so I have it all wired up. I powered it on and I am getting a soft lockout Enviracom error on the burner. The boiler says Error 2. I checked to voltage across terminals 2 and 3 on the burner and I am getting 26.7 VAC. It says that if the voltage is between 20 and 30 VAC then I need to replace the control??? What are the chances it could be bad?
 
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Old 04-22-17, 11:17 AM
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Ok a little more information. The boiler came with a R7284 Electronic Oil Primary. There is a special RJ45 cable that I have connected to the R7284 at the 3 pin connection. The other end is an RJ45 and this is connectied to the female RJ45 on the side of the boiler. I went out and bought a new control unit and it does the same thing.
 
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