burner won't fire when called for heat.

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Old 10-28-17, 07:55 AM
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burner won't fire when called for heat.

Hi all, I've got a 20 yr. old New Yorker boiler with a hot water coil and BoilerMate hot water maker. with a Beckett burner and L8148A Aquastat. Burner has been working fine all summer to complement the BoilerMate but now that the heating season has begun, the boiler won't fire when the thermostat calls for heat. The circulator pump comes on but the burner won't fire. Any thoughts? Thanks
 
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Old 10-28-17, 11:19 AM
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So the system is still working normally....right now..... to supply the domestic hot water..... correct ?

That would mean that there is no problem with the burner or the circulator pump.

Do you have zone valves there..... how many ?
You may have lost the 24v transformer that powers them.

If you have zone valves.... try turning one on using the manual opening lever. See if that starts the boiler.

We can't see what you are working on. Pictures are a big help.
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Old 10-29-17, 07:38 AM
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No zone valves and yes the system is supplying hot water normally. So the burner is working properly for that purpose. The circulator does come on when the thermostat calls for heat. Just no burner fire up.
 
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Old 10-29-17, 10:45 AM
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Does hot water circulate & the boiler temp drop? If not, the problem could be air, a stuck flow check, or a bad circulator. What is the pressure on the system?
 
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Old 10-29-17, 02:21 PM
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Yes water circulates and boiler temps drop. Radiators initially are somewhat warm from the initial boiler heat, but cool after a while. System pressure is about 13 psi,
 
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Old 10-29-17, 02:28 PM
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OK.... no zone valves. So how does the boiler know when to run for the storage tank vs the heating loop ?
Something is missing here.

Maybe a few pictures would help. How-to-insert-pictures
 
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Old 10-29-17, 05:43 PM
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You mentioned you have an L8148A aquastat. That is a high limit control. You also said you have a tankless coil which I'm guessing you had before you put in the boiler mate. One question I have is how did you get your hot water before the boiler mate was installed as that control is not made to control a hot water coil installation. When did you put the boiler mate in and did they change the control when they did that.

Try taking a pair of needle nose pliers or something and try jumping across TT on your control and see if your boiler starts. By doing this you are bypassing the tstat. I know you said the pump comes on but the burner is not coming on to reheat the water.

If you have a meter set it for 120V and with the stat calling see if you have power across B1 & B2 on your control and then with your BM calling do the same thing. The results should be the same if things are wired right.

Hope this helps a little.
 
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Old 10-30-17, 10:37 AM
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Thanks for the replies folks

So here is the latest and some of your questions. The whole system was put in new 20 yrs ago with the Boilermate. So the Aquastat was there at the start. The Boilermate is not a passive storage tank. It uses the boiler to heat when when the temp drops below some minimum,indicated in the boilerMate, but uses an electric element to maintain some ideal temp.

I don't really know the specifics but there must be some minimum that kicks on the burner. If the minimum temp is mainained in the boilermate and the tstat is calling for heat, I have found that the boiler can drop indefinitely without turning on the boiler while the circulator will operate as normal.

I was hoping some expert using the boilermate could chime in here. I do know that there is 120v at L1 and that I am getting 0V at both T terminals when the tstat IS NOT calling for heat. This suggests from a post on another site that the transformer is probably shot as they indicate one of the T terminals should show 24V under these conditions. Does that make sense? Jumping the T terminals only turns on circulator, NOT the burner. In both cases of calling and not calling of the tstat, there is 0V at B1 and B2.
 

Last edited by montrose; 10-30-17 at 10:39 AM. Reason: fix readability
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Old 10-30-17, 12:10 PM
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If you take a voltage reading at your stat with nothing calling you should get 24V at the stat terminals. By jumping the TT terminals on your 8148 control you are bypassing the stat so since the stat is starting the pump it sounds like it is working so I wouldn't concern myself with that right now.

When your boiler mate calls do you get 120V at B1 & B2 not L1. As long as something is working you will always have power at L1.

When your stat calls for heat you should have 120V at C1 & C2 and B1 & B2 ON YOUR 8148. When your boiler mate calls you should have 120V just on B1 & B2 since C1 & C2 are only for your heating pump since you said you do not have zone valves you must have a second pump for the boiler mate which is controlled at the BM and not C1 & C2.

Pics would help.
 
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Old 10-30-17, 12:53 PM
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In both cases of calling and not calling of the tstat, there is 0V at B1 and B2.
As I indicated in my last post, therefore as u suggest, therein lies a problem? Here is a picture of the Aquastat wiring and yes there is a second pump at the BoilerMate.

Thanks for the help!

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Last edited by PJmax; 10-30-17 at 02:22 PM. Reason: reoriented/enlarged picture
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Old 10-30-17, 02:07 PM
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If there is no voltage reading at B1 & B2 when the boiler mate calls how is the burner coming on to reheat the water.

Ordinarily I would say you have a control problem but those B1 & B2 terminals are common to both heat and hot water unless they have somehow bypassed the 8148 with the boiler mate and gone straight into the burner relay.

Where is your wiring from the boiler mate and where does it go. If it is not going into your 8148 my guess is your control might be bad.

I didn't mention hitting your reset on the burner because you said it does come on for hot water.

Do you have more pics of the whole boiler including the boiler mate. That would give a better idea of what you have.
 
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Old 10-30-17, 04:34 PM
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Thanks Spott

If there is no voltage reading at B1 & B2 when the boiler mate calls how is the burner coming on to reheat the water.
As I said in my previous post," In both cases of calling and not calling of the "TSTAT", there is 0V at B1 and B2" (not the BoilerMate calling for heat)

In the picture the BoilerMate wiring comes in on the Bottom right. White wire to B2 and red wire to B! which is common to the lower terminal on the high limit.
 

Last edited by montrose; 10-30-17 at 05:09 PM. Reason: mistake in right and left
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Old 10-30-17, 04:49 PM
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Then you are still missing something.

When you short the TT terminals in the aquastat..... does that relay close ?
If that relay closes and you don't get B1-B2 power..... the relay is bad.

If the Boilermate connects to B1 and B2 in the aquastat..... then there needs to be a line from the Boilermate to the burner. 120v comes out of the aquastat..... not in.... on the burner line.

I'm leaning towards incorrect wiring and a problem at the Boilermate control .
 
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Old 10-30-17, 04:55 PM
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Picture of heating system
 
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Old 10-30-17, 05:06 PM
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I'm leaning towards incorrect wiring and a problem at the Boilermate control .
Can't be incorrect wiring. System has worked with this wiring for almost 20 years.

Was hoping someone on here could tell me what I'm missing.

Thanks for the reply though. Shorting T1 and T2 trips realy but only circulator turns on, Not burner.
 
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Old 10-30-17, 05:20 PM
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When T T closes the relay...... 120v should appear on the blue wire on the high limit stat. If that is there..... check the red wire at the bottom of the high limit stat..... if it's not there.... the stat is not calling for hot water or the water temp is higher than the high limit is set at.


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Old 10-30-17, 05:33 PM
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I have the same set up in my house, 2 pumps and all. I still have to ask again. How is the power from the boiler mate getting to the burner if it is not going through B1 & B2 on your control. Your BM control seems fine if the boiler comes on to reheat the water. When the BM calls is there 120V at B1 &B2.

If you are comfortable with electricity you can shut the power off and run a wire or jumper from L1 TO B1 and see if the burner starts. If it does your problem is in control. Maybe a bad solder joint on the back of the control board.
 
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Old 10-30-17, 07:29 PM
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spott,

How is the power from the boiler mate getting to the burner if it is not going through B1 & B2 on your control. Your BM control seems fine if the boiler comes on to reheat the water. When the BM calls is there 120V at B1 &B2.

Although I haven't checked it with the vom, I'm assuming there is voltage at B! and B2 when the BoilerMate calls for heat because this part of the system is functioning properly. I replied previously that only when the TSTAT was calling for heat I found no voltage at B1 and B2 and after rereading your original question you did ask about the voltage with the tstat calling AND with the BM calling. I was answering only about the TSAT. I was thinking the BM voltage was evident. Sorry about not being clear and thanks again for your help.

I'll try a jumper from L1 to B1 2morrow.
 
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Old 10-30-17, 07:43 PM
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Pj,

When T T closes the relay...... 120v should appear on the blue wire on the high limit stat.
jumpd TT, relay closed and NO voltage at blue wire hi limit terminal. Does this suggest a broken solder connect on the board as spott is suggesting?
 
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Old 10-30-17, 08:00 PM
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That would indicate that the relay is not supplying power.... either a bad contact on the relay or solder like suggested.
 
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Old 10-31-17, 06:38 AM
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going to try replacing aquastat

So let me ask you all this. Since I've narrowed this problem down to the L8146a, I'm thinking of buying a used unit on ebay. Other than wiring in the replacement unit is there any special issues I need to pay attention to for placement of the probe into the boiler well? I've never had any experience in this regard. Thanks. Once the replacement unit is in, I plan on seeing if I can repair the original as a backup.

Thanks to all for the input
 
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Old 10-31-17, 12:54 PM
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Not really. If you buy the same unit just swap them out. You will not have to remove the well so just make sure the probe goes all the way in.
PJ mentioned a possible bad relay which could be a possibility except in this case your pump is coming on which means the relay is actually pulling in and just not sending power to the burner terminal where it being a high limit control they should both come on together unless you boiler temp has reached the high limit setting.

Did you try adjusting the temp setting on the control to see what happens. Probably nothing but just out of curiosity.

If you jump from L1 to B1 that should tell you if it's the control. If you do this watch the boiler temp because you are bypassing the high limit setting and you will have no limit protection. If you want some heat while doing this turn up your stat to start the pump to deliver heat while testing.

Before buying a used control go to this sight below and put your control number in the search box to see what's available. It will also tell you instructions and other info by clicking various headings.

http://www.supplyhouse.com/

Hope this helps a little.
 
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Old 10-31-17, 03:12 PM
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Not a bad relay.... just one set of contacts. 1K1 powers the circulator. 1K2 power the burner.
 
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Old 11-01-17, 10:16 AM
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If you jump from L1 to B1 that should tell you if it's the control. If you do this watch the boiler temp because you are bypassing the high limit setting and you will have no limit protection. If you want some heat while doing this turn up your stat to start the pump to deliver heat while testing.
I wired a temporary switch between L1 and B1 so I can manually turn the burner on and off to get some heat until my replacement aquastat comes in. Works great!

Thanks for your help guys.
 
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