Steam Heat Does not reach Second Floor


  #1  
Old 12-15-17, 11:10 AM
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Steam Heat Does not reach Second Floor

Hi,
I have two family house with one STEAM BOILER feeding to both house. Thermostat is located in living room in First floor. Thermostat is set to 75 degree but still heat does not reach to second floor. First floor is getting very hot. How do I resolve this issue ?

I am thinking of below but need more expert advise for immediate solution:
1) Planning to move first floor thermostat in Kitchen next to existing thermostat which is usually colder than Living role.
2) Will Install Adjustable Air vent on First Floor Radiator and open as little as possible so first floor radiator warms up slow instead of faster which will allow heat to reach second floor.

Any other idea or option I can try ? Can I install second Thermostat on second floor and connect to same wire going in boiler ? So based on whatever thermostat satisfied last, boiler will shut off ?

Please I need this help asap since it is very cold in NJ. Thanks in Advance.
 

Last edited by mamin; 12-15-17 at 11:36 AM.
  #2  
Old 12-15-17, 12:09 PM
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M,
When you say heat doesn't reach 2nd floor do you mean it's heating up slower or not heating at all.

The only way to balance steam is with the vents to make sure steam gets to rads at same time.

There are a couple of ways to balance the system. The closer the rads to the boiler the lower the vent setting. Second , The larger the rad the higher the vent setting.

Simply put, the faster the air is vented the faster the steam heats the rad.

Since your system has 2 floors you must restrict the heat from getting to the 1st floor stat until the 2nd floor heats.

Putting a stat on the 2nd floor would keep the boiler running longer to heat the rads but with no other changes the 1st floor would grossly overheat which is defeating your purpose. You could accomplish the same thing by keeping the stat in a cold location on the 1st floor where it is.

They do make thermostatic radiator valves that connect right to your rad where the vent is so there is virtually no labor installing them and then you set them as you would a stat.

They turn every rad or the ones you put them on like their own zone.

This is all contingent upon if your boiler is operating properly to begin with.

Is this an ongoing problem or something new. What are you running for pressure.

Are pics and more boiler and system info possible.

Go to the sight below and type in (Thermostatic radiator valves) in the search box to see what is available.

http://www.supplyhouse.com/


Hope this helps a little.
 
  #3  
Old 12-16-17, 04:37 AM
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steam heating

Where are you located? Is this steam system a 1 or 2 pipe system? You mention radiator vents, which usually indicates a 1 pipe system, however that is not always the case. What type and name/model are the vents you are using? Is this an ongoing problem or is it a new problem? Are you a new or old owner of this house? If you are an old owner, how long have you lived here? What type of radiation is installed? It is usually cast iron radiators but could also be convectors or baseboard units? Has the system/ boiler been serviced recently? These are all questions that need to be answered in order to provide a good solution to your heating system. Every problem can be fixed.
 
  #4  
Old 12-16-17, 08:04 AM
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Steamboy

Brand: Williamson (Steam Boiler)
Model: GSA - GSA-125-SP 125000 BTU
INPUT BTU: 125000
SINGLE PIPE SYSTEM
cast iron radiators - 3 First Floor, 4 - Second Floor

Air Vent:
First Floor - Varivalve 925005-00 Adjustable Angle Vent Valve
Second Floor - Hoffman 1A, 1/8" Adjustable Angle Steam Radiator Air Valve

I own this property for more than 6 years. Last Year I had Crown B00339455 - Output 115K BTU Steam boiler which started leaking and I installed Williamson this year. Since I have installed new one heat is not going second floor at all. With Crown Boiler it was going heat second floor but first floor was getting too hot and it was ongoing problem with tenant. As soon as Thermostat on first floor brought down to 72 degree, second floor tenant were complaining.

Here is what I tested. I turned on thermostat all they way to 85 degree and all of the radiator second floor were working and heating up the way it should be.

As Spotty mentioned, Problem seems to be on first floor radiator. Last Night, I have adjusted all three VariValve Air Vent to 1/8 open (minimum) to test. Second Floor Hoffman Air Vent set to position 6 (Fully Open). yet to be find out what happened. I will go today and find out whether second floor heat went or not and if first floor was too hot or too cold. I think adjusting first floor should work but problem is I really have to do by trial and error unless someone tells me procedure to adjust it in one attempt.

My Pressure Control setting is 3 lbs and Differential is 2 lbs.

I hope this helps.
 
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Old 12-16-17, 10:29 AM
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m,
You want no more than 2lbs of pressure.

Depending if your pressuretrol is additive or subtractive set your cut in all the way down to .5lb (1/2lb) and your differential (white wheel ) to 11/2lbs. That will give you a cut out or high limit of 2lbs. which is what you want.

Whatever one you have just make sure you don't go over 2 lbs. pressure cut out.

Believe it or not, I know it may sound strange but the higher the pressure the slower the steam moves.

2lbs. pressure is all a residential system needs.

Hope this helps a little.
 

Last edited by spott; 12-16-17 at 12:01 PM.
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Old 12-16-17, 10:48 AM
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I agree with Spott, lower that pressure setting!

This scenario is why I detest residential steam heating systems with a passion. Control of individual rooms different from the original design is difficult to VERY difficult. I spent my entire adult life working with steam in some capacity or other and to my dying days I will love steam, but NOT for residential heating purposes.
 
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Old 12-16-17, 05:53 PM
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Here is my pressure control setting per attached image. For Differential I see 0 --> 2 --> 3 -> 4 > -5 . I did not see 0-1 setting So I have set close to 2 and for regular setting i have set to 0.5 PSI as per attached.

Also, I have attached setting for Varivalve located in Thermostat room which seems to be getting hot too fast. I have moved setting almost to Close. Only 5% is open.

I will see result tomorrow on how much improvement i see due to this change. Before pressure change, only one of the room radiator on second floor received heat after I made changes to first floor Air vent per my previous post. three radiator is not receiving heat while 75 Degree temperature in Thermostat room on first floor.
 
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Old 12-16-17, 07:27 PM
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On you differential (white wheel) you want about 1.5 lbs., so just under 2 is fine. The cut in is fine at .5.

That will give you 2lbs.

Out of curiosity are your main steam pipes insulated, especially you near boiler piping.

It's very important to insulate those pipes to keep the steam in so it doesn't condense before it gets to the rads.

As soon as steam leaves the boiler and hits the cooler environment it will give off its temp and begin to make condensate without ever reaching the rads defeating the purpose of making steam.

It doesn't take much. Steam is made at 212 deg. Anything below that is just hot water and is not doing you any good.

You want to keep steam in the lines and long as possible and that is done by covering those pipes, at least the supply's.
 
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Old 12-17-17, 07:05 AM
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Spot,
No my near pipe is not insulated and it never been. I can try to insulate it. But it was working fine last year same pipes. Also it works fine if I increase temp. to 80 Degree in thermostat so it seems unlikely but I will make sure it is insulated.


Any other idea ?. Should I change Air Vent in Thermostat room ?. i do not see reason because it is now warming up slower than before and not too hot as used to be before.

I have set pressure to 1.5 on differential and 0.5 on main as you have suggested.
 
  #10  
Old 12-17-17, 09:03 AM
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M,
No need to change vent in stat room because it is working. Any vent you replace it with will do the same thing.

As far as covering your pipes if nothing else it might save you a little money by getting more steam to the rads before it begins to cool to condensate and return to the boiler after just heating that pipe.

The fact that the upstairs does heat is good. At least you know everything works. Its getting it there without overheating the first floor will be the challenge.

The whole question here is system balance and keeping the stat on long enough to satisfy upstairs which means keeping the stat room cooler.

One way would be to put those thermostatic valves on your floor. Another would be to adjust your vents to the lowest setting on the rads and see if it's enough. Also make sure that the upstairs vents are wide open to vent faster.

You could as you mentioned move the stat upstairs but that would give them total control and depending on how warm they like you could fry if the vent adjustment didn't work.

Steam can be very difficult to balance, especially for multiple floors. Outside of zoning, vents are the only way.

I serviced a duplex with the same problem as yours. What I ended up doing was installing a stat in the cold apartment and installing rad thermostatic valves in the other side to make each rad its own zone and to not overheat the apartment and it worked for them but both sides were family.

If this is a tenant and you're paying the fuel bill you must really trust them not to abuse the situation.

The only other alternative is to install a second boiler and get them off your system as a last resort.

Just my thoughts for now.
 
  #11  
Old 12-17-17, 11:22 AM
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1 pipe steam

First, let me explain how a 1 pipe steam system is supposed to work. They were originally designed to be used with a coal boiler only. When the coal fire was started in the fall/winter the boiler would heat up very slowly and stay on for extended periods of time. There was no thermostat to cycle the coal fire on and off as it is with a gas or oil boiler. The vents would vent out the air very slowly because the heat was generated slowly by the coal fire. Then came gas and oil burners that could be controlled by a thermostat to cycle the burner on/off. most of these systems were not supposed to be on/off. Your system is probably similar to this so changes to the system need to be made. The new boiler you installed may be too small for the steam load. Steam boilers are sized on the output + an additional 30% for start up load. Your old boiler had an output of 115,000BTU while the new boiler has an output of about 100,000 BTU. (15,000 BTU short). For proper venting , you should have a main line steam vent or maybe 2 or 3 installed near the end of the steam main to vent the steam quickly. Then all the radiators could utilize Hoffman # 40 vents. (my choice) I do not know how the near boiler piping was piped but It is very critical for it to remain exactly the way it was with the old boiler. Now, for a solution to your current problem. In lieu of totally re-engineering your system to make it correct, you could move the thermostat to the coldest room in the house and add Danfoss (my choice again) 1 pipe steam radiator thermostats to all the other radiators, but not the one in this room. This would give you control of the boiler and individual room temperature control and the boiler would stay on until the coldest room temperature was satisfied. Do not try to use adjustable vents to control the steam supply to the radiators, it rarely works. hope this helps. As for the Danfoss radiator thermostats check with local suppliers for the correct valve, thermostat and vent for each radiator.
 
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Old 12-17-17, 02:48 PM
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Switch one or two working air vents with one or two non or slow workin rads[not while its steaming], and see if that makes a difference. Is the air flow restricted , around any of the cold room rads, like furniture or stuff on top?
Sid
 
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Old 12-17-17, 05:13 PM
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I am going to move Thermostat Second floor and keep temperature low (70 Degree) and see how hot first floor gets when Air Vents are set to lowest on first floor and highest on second floor. If first floor gets too hot, I will by thermostatic valve to control temp. at Radiator level for two radiator and keep one of them off in kitchen which is connected to living room Radiator.
 
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Old 12-17-17, 05:49 PM
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M,
Since you are going to relocate the stat anyway before going through all that why don't you just put stat, not wired or something to tell you the temp of that floor upstairs. Adjust all vents the way you described and then turn your stat up and let it run until the 2nd floor gets to 70 and see how hot 1st floor gets.

That will give you some idea of what you're in for without doing all the labor.

Just a thought.
 
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Old 12-17-17, 06:02 PM
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Spott,
Thank you for your suggestion. I did exactly what you suggested by placing small thermostat to check temp. at second floor before posting my previous post. I shorted wire at boiler to keep heat on so heat can reach to second floor. I waited until 70 degree on second floor and first floor temp. was 75 degree which did not change much that what is was set before. It seems that first floor current 75 degree setting is keep shutting off boiler before it reaches upstairs and upstairs never gets heat. I believe if I move it upstairs it is unlikely to get too hot first floor. May be somewhere around 75 what i tested.

That is the reason I came to conclusion to move it upstairs and give a try. Running wire upstairs will be a challenge in cold but it may be worth it since tenant second floor is keep complaining ( I do not blame them).
 
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Old 12-17-17, 06:17 PM
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Good luck, it's never easy. Let me know how you make out. I'll keep thinking anyway.

Just so you know, if you just have a 2 wire stat in your apt. instead of jumping the wires from the boiler you can remove the stat from the base and jump the wires at the stat to keep the boiler running.
 
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Old 12-17-17, 06:34 PM
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Moving the thermostat upstairs will allow your tenant to set a comfortable heat level for them but you will still roast. You still need to work on getting the two floors to heat more evenly.
 
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Old 12-17-17, 07:46 PM
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Would it help to put blankets over the radiators in rooms that get too hot? For starters the blanket should go all the way to the floor and go around the back side of the radiator also. Then adjust the coverage to get the desired temperature.
 
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Old 12-18-17, 05:22 AM
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Let me make a correction to my post at 10:22 #11 permalink. I said that steam boilers are sized on the boilers output + 30%, when I should have said that boilers are sized on the connected radiation load + 30% for start-up and piping load to get to the required boiler output Sorry for the wrong statement.
 
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Old 12-21-17, 10:51 AM
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Finally, I moved Thermostat to second floor and installed two Denfoss

Valve - https://www.supplyhouse.com/Danfoss-...team-5551000-p
Controller - https://www.supplyhouse.com/Danfoss-...ed-Dial-Sensor
Straight Air Vent - https://www.homedepot.com/p/Plumbers...E881/300005595

Now I am getting Heat on second floor. I kept temprature 73 F on second floor and have 72 on first floor using controller.

It seems to be working for now but I will have to adjust the temp. settings after going through extreme cold and warmer days and see what works the best.

Going to install Lock Cover on Thermostat on second floor so tenant do not mess with it.

I would not call a victory yet but at least heat is reaching on second floor.
 
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Old 12-21-17, 12:47 PM
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M,
Good to hear. Looks like you are going in the right direction.

I have used them in the past with good results, except the vent. I am a varivalve man. Never had a problem which is what I like. The cheaper ones for some reason didn't seem to last for me.

Merry Christmas,
 
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Old 01-24-18, 04:57 PM
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It has been over a month and heat seems to be working fine. Went through worst winter in 20 years. Seems to be holding off well.

Great help from this forum, great input. i could not have done without all of you guys. Keep doing great work and helping others.
 
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Old 01-24-18, 05:23 PM
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m,
Thank you for the update. Although it's still January I hope the worst is behind us.
 
 

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