Boiler pressure too high, replaced several parts already

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  #1  
Old 01-24-18, 06:23 AM
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Boiler pressure too high, replaced several parts already

I have a natural gas closed water boiler that is about 30 years old. It has been working very well over the last 10 years and have had a few HVAC technicians come and look at it. Recently the pressure was getting too high which led to water dripping and a technician came and replaced (over the course of several visits) the expansion tank, pressure relief valve, pressure reducing valve, water feeder and even a leaky water shut-off valve. The pressure still is running too high (around 30 or just above). The technician now thinks that it could be because of water pressure that's too high coming in from the main (I have city water) and would like to install a 1/2" water pressure regulator. The issue never seemed to be present in the past and I'm assuming the water pressure hasn't changed very much from prior years. I had him adjust the pressure reducing valve screw to try to lower the pressure that goes into the tank yesterday, but the pressure this morning again seems too high.

I'm wondering if anyone has any ideas and if I should keep spending money on a system that does not appear to be improving (after all of these replaced parts I still have the same issue as I did in the beginning). Thanks!
 
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  #2  
Old 01-24-18, 06:34 AM
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Are you making domestic hot water with this boiler? If so the coil may be leaking. The boiler feed may not be working right also. Turn off the manual boiler feed valve, to see if that helps. Also the expansion tank might be bad [water logged].
Sid
 
  #3  
Old 01-24-18, 06:42 AM
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I have a separate hot water heater so not making domestic hot water. The feed was replaced although I guess it is possible the new one also isn't working correctly. When I turn off the water valve that leads to all these parts it does seem to help keep the pressure lower -- however the technician thinks that might just mean the water pressure for the house is too high (although he hasn't tested the water pressure with a gauge to verify that). The expansion tank also has been replaced in the last week -- perhaps he didn't pressure it correctly when putting it in? Seems like a lot of moving parts so it's difficult to isolate what the actual issue is or whether my boiler is just getting too old. Trying to figure out if I should keep spending money on the system and if it makes sense to people that the water pressure from the main water line could be the issue.
 
  #4  
Old 01-24-18, 08:49 AM
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Turn off the main boiler supply, and bleed enough boiler water to reduce the pressure to around 15 PSI, and see if it stays there. If so then adjust the boiler feed valve to around 12 to 15 PSI. Or if you live in the house, and the boiler, and piping have no leaks, just leave it off and check the boiler pressure once and awhile. My feed is always off, even the I go away for a month or more. There is at least one thread on this topic.
Sid
 
  #5  
Old 01-24-18, 09:20 AM
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OK thanks Sid that is an interesting idea. I will look for the other thread too.
 
  #6  
Old 01-24-18, 10:56 AM
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Your house pressure has nothing at all to do with your boiler pressure.

That is why you have a pressure reducing valve on the boiler.

Since you don't have a tankless coil in your boiler that would eliminate a leak there.

There are 2 reasons why your boiler creates high pressure. Your feed valve and your expansion tank.

Shut your manual feed valve off as mentioned and if you can shut your boiler off for a while and let it cool down to see what your cold pressure is.

If it's high drain to about 15 psi and with the manual valve off run the boiler up to temp and see if the pressure climbs.

It should only go up maybe a couple of pounds.

If it climbs to 30 again tap your expansion tank with a screwdriver as a fast test.

The top should be solid and the bottom hollow, where the bladder is. If the whole tank sounds solid it is water logged and you either have a ruptured bladder or a deflated bladder.

On the bottom of the tank is a Schrader valve. If you push in the stem and get water you have a ruptured bladder and must replace the tank.

You can also get an air pressure gauge and check the air pressure. If the tank is new and hasn't been altered it should read about 12 psi when isolated from the system.

In either case it must be isolated from the system to repair or replaced.

Hope this helps a little.
 
  #7  
Old 01-25-18, 04:31 AM
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Thanks thats very helpful as I also didn't get why the house pressure would have anything to do with the issue I'm having. Before I read your post this morning, the pressure did hit 30 again and I released water to bring it back down to 15. I didn't have a chance to check the expansion tank to see if it was flooded (although it sounded ok after I drained it) but in reading your instructions I did notice that the tank seems to be flipped from what you describe. Hopefully you can see from the pictures (it is dark in there) but the tank appears to be the opposite from what you describe with the Schrader valve on the top and not on the bottom. I recently had this tank replaced and I assume it was installed correctly and from the looks of it you'd have to install it this way but figured I'd check to see if that could somehow be the issue. I will let the boiler cool and try what you've suggested though.
 
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  #8  
Old 01-25-18, 04:35 AM
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Unfortunately it looks like the pictures came in sideways but the white pipe is on top (the tank is vertical not horizontal--with Schrader valve on top) and the label on the tank is upside down.
 
  #9  
Old 01-25-18, 05:17 AM
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Couple things:
1) When manual feed valve is shut off and boiler is off the pressure drops too low: 5 or below
2) The pressure in the expansion tank seems to be around 15 and after reading other views online it seems like it is ok to be installed upside down.

Trying to bring boiler up to temp with manual feed valve off to see what pressure gets to -- in the past I tried this and it did seem to not get as high. But both feeder and pressure relief valve have been replaced in last few weeks. Perhaps the new feeder (which I'm assuming is the same thing as the pressure reducing valve) is faulty?
 

Last edited by Bricks23; 01-25-18 at 05:36 AM.
  #10  
Old 01-25-18, 06:45 AM
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Ran boiler with manual valve off. Pressure was at 15 to start and went to 25 while boiler ran. Expansion tank sounded fine (hollow sound on top, solid on bottom).

It performed slightly better than while valve is open but that still seems like the pressure is too high.

The new expansion tank is the same size as the old one, I wonder if I should try a larger one? I have cast iron radiators on a two story house. But still can't figure out why all was fine for so long and now it's not with basically new versions of the same parts. Or maybe the boiler is just on its last legs and is working much harder to come up to the 180 degree cutoff temp.
 
  #11  
Old 01-25-18, 07:21 AM
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The maximum operating pressure of your boiler increased for one or more of the following reasons:

1. The total amount of water in the system is greater than it was before.
2. The total amount of air in the system including in the expansion tank is lower than it was before.
3. The high cutoff temperature of the boiler is higher than it was before.

Short suggestion:

Turn off the boiler power and let the system cool down. Add some air, about 5 PSI, to the expansion tank. Drain some water from the boiler until the pressure goes back to where it was. Observe the boiler pressure for the next 48 hours. Then repeat. (Do not repeat if the expansion tank pressure exceeds the rest of the system pressure by more than 5 PSI when the system is cold)
 

Last edited by AllanJ; 01-25-18 at 08:01 AM.
  #12  
Old 01-25-18, 08:28 AM
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B,
You said with boiler off and cool the manual valve off the pressure went down to 5. That could be because you let water out and with the manual valve closed the PRV couldn't refill to 15.

Then you said the boiler started at 15 and ended at 25.

5 is way too low if you had the valve open. The PRV should have refilled automatically to 12-15 psi.

Next time you run the boiler to temp and it goes to 30 DO NOT drain any water out. Let the boiler cool and the pressure will go back to 15 psi.

Your expansion tank can be mounted in any position and work fine.

Now for your problem.

You said you have cast iron radiators. I'm guessing you know the difference. You do mean free standing cast iron radiators.

That is your problem. Any time you have any cast iron rads in the system because of the higher water content you need a larger expansion tank.

With cast iron rads you need a minimum of a # 60 extrol tank. Your system is more than likely fine except the tank, although working is just not large enough to handle all the expansion.

The tank you have now is a #30. Half of what you need.

You can install a single #60 or add another #30 if you have room.

The larger tank should solve your problems. The tech who put that tank in should have known better. Maybe he would be willing to make it right by exchanging that tank for the right one.

It is very important to match the tank with the system and not just install a standard #30 on when you are dealing with any cast iron and that includes cast iron baseboard also. Sometimes a #60 isn't even enough.

Hope this helps a little.
 
  #13  
Old 01-25-18, 08:30 AM
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Allanj, thanks for the help. I will likely take this on after the weekend as I won't be able to monitor this closely until then. That said, do you think it makes sense to add about 5 psi to the expansion tank even if the pressure gage is indicating that it is currently around 15 psi (I have a gage that I'm guessing isn't super accurate -- although should be +/- 3 psi or so)?
 
  #14  
Old 01-25-18, 08:34 AM
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Spott,
Yes I realized I must have let too much water out -- I then refilled it until it came back to 15 which is when I closed the valve and brought the boiler up to temperature. They are indeed free standing cast iron radiators.

I agree the expansion tank size could be the issue. Only thing that is odd is I had the same smaller size tank for at least 10 years without a problem (don't recall pressure ever consistently being high enough to cause pressure relief valve to release water). The tech replaced the tank with the same size tank. But I do think I will reach out to him and see if I can put in a 60...I don't have much room but hopefully the dimension will work for a larger size tank.
 

Last edited by Bricks23; 01-25-18 at 08:53 AM.
  #15  
Old 01-25-18, 08:55 AM
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B,
Your problem is definitely the size of the tank.

As for the recent higher pressure readings a couple things could be the cause.

If you are running a little higher cold pressure now, it doesn't take much or if you are running a little higher temp now, keeping the boiler running a little longer. Lower temp would shut it down earlier and although my guess is you always had high pressure you may never have noticed it because it stopped just under the relief valve setting.

Just a thought.
 
  #16  
Old 01-26-18, 05:04 AM
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Can you read the writing on your Expansion Tank WITHOUT standing on your head ?

It concerns me when you say "Expansion tank sounded fine (hollow sound on top, solid on bottom)" because that's not consistent with the schematic that's shown on the side of your Tank, regardless of how you have to look at it.
 
  #17  
Old 01-26-18, 07:51 AM
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V,
Since the tank is mounted up side down his statement would be correct as the bladder is mounted on the bottom of the tank where the Schrader valve is and water enters the top when the tank is right side up.

So in his case with the tank inverted the bladder would be on top (hollow) and water on bottom (solid).

It's not the conventional way to install it but it does work.

In this case it should be hollow on top and solid on bottom.
 
  #18  
Old 01-30-18, 02:41 PM
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Spott,
Had the tank replaced to a #60 this afternoon, and my fingers are crossed but it looks like that was the problem. I'll need to see it run for a few cycles from cold up to temperature to be sure but looks much better so far and PSI is only going up a little when the boiler is on. Thank you SO much for your input - the technician did not think this fix would work and with your help I was able to push for it.

I'll update further if the problem returns -- but appreciate your input.
 
  #19  
Old 01-30-18, 04:06 PM
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B,
Thank you for the update. Good to hear it's working for you.
 
  #20  
Old 01-31-18, 05:47 AM
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Unfortunately the saga continues. This morning the pressure was above 30 and the relief valve was dripping water despite the installation of the #60 expansion tank.

I think the technician will want to install a separate 1/2" water pressure regulator, which I'm doubtful will help.

Wondering if somehow the newly installed pressure reducing valve is faulty. Just not sure what else it could be. If I have him back perhaps I'll have him try to test the water pressure coming out of the pressure reducing valve before installing anything further.
 
  #21  
Old 01-31-18, 06:34 AM
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Leave the boiler feed off. Lower the pressure to 12 or 15 psi and watch it for a few days. If you live in the house, you can leave the feed off and feed it when you have to. If you have no leaks, you may hardly ever have to.
Sid
 
  #22  
Old 01-31-18, 07:17 AM
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New idea to try. What was the pressure in the expansion tank before it was installed?

I want to suggest presetting the expansion tank to about 2 PSI less than the desired system cold pressure when the latter is showing on the system gauge. You may need to drain some water from the boiler to achieve this setting (and then refill the boiler).

Note: The expansion tank will not begin to mediate or regulate or relieve the system pressure until the system pressure reaches the expansion tank preset pressure.
 
  #23  
Old 01-31-18, 08:06 AM
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The expansion tank pressure was factory preset at 12.
 
  #24  
Old 01-31-18, 10:09 AM
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B,

Sorry to hear you still have a problem. The only thing that can be causing excess pressure is your PRV. You don't have any other source of incoming water.

Try running the boiler with the manual valve shut off with the new tank in place and see what happens.

As suggested run it for a few days. If everything stays normal the problem is in you PRV.

I know you tried this before with the #30 tank. With the new #60 your system should only go up a couple of lbs. with the right tank.

There is no danger of running of system with the manual valve off until you locate the problem. With everything running properly you won't lose any water anyway.
 
  #25  
Old 01-31-18, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by spott
". . . The only thing that can be causing excess pressure is your PRV. . . ."
Just for clarity in this thread, is your use of the abbreviation "PRV" substituting for:

Pressure Relief Valve; or for

Pressure Reducing Valve ?
 
  #26  
Old 01-31-18, 02:17 PM
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I generally never use this term because of the confusion but this was his term from a previous post so since that was the term he understood and since I was addressing him I used it so there would not be any confusion but I understand and get your comment for the other people who read this post.

One other small point for whoever is following this post "pressure relief valves" do not cause excessive pressure so I figured that would distinguish between the two.
 
  #27  
Old 02-01-18, 12:11 PM
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Even with the manual water valve shut the pressure is still going too high. Started cold at 15 psi and is at 25 psi and climbing without the boiler fully coming to temperature yet.

Possibility 1) The #60 expansion tank still isn't big enough -- still would have thought that going from the #30 to #60 at least would somewhat have shown an improvement?
Possibility 2) The boiler is too old and is straining to get up to temperature -- time to replace in the spring? Haven't really seen high pressure as a symptom of a boiler that is too old but don't know what else it could be at this point. It does take the boiler a long time to get to temperature when starting from cold (well over an hour -- perhaps 2+).
 
  #28  
Old 02-01-18, 09:30 PM
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If your boiler is that large coupled with the radiators it's very possible that the #60 isn't enough.

The age of the boiler has nothing to do with your problem.

A new boiler although it will be smaller will still give you the same problem if the expansion problem isn't taken care of.

Do you have pics of the boiler and the size and pics or the radiators to get some idea of the size of the system.

There are formulars for figuring out tank sizes.

http://www.supplyhouse.com/Amtrol-11...lume-7366000-p

Check out this sight and you can get all your info. Click on Brochure and scroll down and you will find some sizing charts to give you an idea of what you need.
 
  #29  
Old 02-02-18, 06:01 AM
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Did you do anything to the system way back at about the time the problem showed up, like add a lot of water or bleed air from the system?

Large air pockets elsewhere in the system will behave like additional expansion tanks. When these pockets are bled, the symptoms of a too small expansion tank will show up more quickly.
 
  #30  
Old 02-02-18, 06:12 AM
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I know that this system has a separate Hot Water Heater . . . . but does i still have an old non-functioning tankless coil hooked up to street water pressure ?

As a Broker, I once had a home For Sale with an un-explained leaking Pressure Relief Valve, and it was due to a corrosion leak in the copper coil that was allowing excessive pressure to slowly enter the Boiler and cause periodic blow-offs, and this was long after they had converted to a stand-alone HWH; but left the Coil connected as a back-up.. The Coil had to be completely severed to bring those blow-offs to an end.
 
  #31  
Old 02-02-18, 06:19 AM
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The charts are fairly basic but it suggests a #90 (150 btu, cast iron radiators). I'm a bit hesitant to keep spending more money on this but I do agree that it is likely the only answer. The tech doesn't think the tank is the issue as he claims he sees plenty of other bigger homes with similar set-ups and smaller expansion tanks. I would have thought going from the #30 to #60 would have improved the pressure somewhat even if the #60 was still too small?

I can post pics later if it helps but basically it is a 150 btu boiler in a basement of a standalone 2 story home with 13 standalone cast iron radiators of varying size and one (finned?) baseboard radiator.

It won't be easy to fit a #90 and will require an extension of a pipe so not a DIY for me. The tech wants me to run with the valve closed for a week or so but I'm guessing I try to go for the #90 after that. I hope I can get a good amount of more years on this 30yr old boiler after all of this!

Thanks
 
  #32  
Old 02-02-18, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by AllanJ View Post
Did you do anything to the system way back at about the time the problem showed up, like add a lot of water or bleed air from the system?

Large air pockets elsewhere in the system will behave like additional expansion tanks. When these pockets are bled, the symptoms of a too small expansion tank will show up more quickly.
A,
Not really -- I have tried to bleed the radiators a few times after changing expansion tanks or when new parts have been added just to get the air out but not much air seems to be in the system when I do that. Only water that has been added has been when refilling the expansion tank after switch or a few times when pressure got too low.
 
  #33  
Old 02-02-18, 06:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Vermont View Post
I know that this system has a separate Hot Water Heater . . . . but does i still have an old non-functioning tankless coil hooked up to street water pressure ?

As a Broker, I once had a home For Sale with an un-explained leaking Pressure Relief Valve, and it was due to a corrosion leak in the copper coil that was allowing excessive pressure to slowly enter the Boiler and cause periodic blow-offs, and this was long after they had converted to a stand-alone HWH; but left the Coil connected as a back-up.. The Coil had to be completely severed to bring those blow-offs to an end.
V,
I don't think so -- there doesn't appear to be anything else hooked up but I can take another look and perhaps send pictures. I'm not sure I know exactly what that would like like although if it requires a decent amount of extra room then it probably isn't there as all of this is in a confined space.
 
  #34  
Old 02-02-18, 10:00 AM
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B,
That is a good size system, you never mentioned that earlier or I would have suggested at least the 90.

As far as the tech working on bigger houses, it's not the size of the house, it's the kind of heat emitters tat hooked up and the size of the boiler that determines the size of the tank.

I got called to a job a while back with the same situation as yours. The original company was getting nowhere and I was asked to look at it.

Originally he had a compression tank in the ceiling and never had a problem and the a new boiler was put in with an extrol and the problems started. The company was being very stubborn and changing feed valves and pressure relief valves and giving the same answers as you're getting.

The first thing I was going to do was going to do when I saw the cast iron rads were put a #60 in but then I decided to measure all the radiation and it turned out a SX30 or 40 was called for. Those are floor model tanks.

I installed the tank and all the problems went away.

You have a pretty large system and with the rads and large boiler and I'm guessing large pipes a high water content system which makes all the difference in determining the size of the tank.

As far as the manual valve being closed I thought you were already doing that. With the valve closed if you reach 25 psi that is not dangerous and if it performs the same way each time it narrows down your problem to expansion.

Go to the sight below and type in "Expansion tank calculator" and answer the questions and it will tell you the size you need before you spend more money.

http://www.supplyhouse.com/
 
  #35  
Old 02-03-18, 06:04 AM
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S,
Thanks
So far with manual valve closed the range has consistently been about 15 to 30 psi.

Quick question -- the online calculator at www.supplyhouse.com indicates sizing for a floor standing tank: SX-30V Tank which has a 14 gallon volume (another calculator did said a #90 though). Would the #90 extrol expansion tank, which also has a 14 gallon volume, perform the same? I don't think I have the space for a floor standing tank plus switching the piping around to accommodate one would be much more of a job. Looks like the floor standing model might have a higher capacity for whatever reason based on the charts.
 

Last edited by Bricks23; 02-03-18 at 06:26 AM.
  #36  
Old 02-03-18, 08:32 AM
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B,
They are exactly the same capacity. You can use either one. They make the floor model if space is a problem for the #90.

I saw the same thing and got curious if I was missing something so I called to make sure and that's the answer I got. No difference, whatever one is more convenient to use.

I didn't mention it because I didn't want to confuse you unless you asked.

Good catch, you did your homework.
 
  #37  
Old 02-03-18, 09:27 AM
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Does the boiler pressure fluctuate between the same high value and low value as it cycles on and off?

What is the maximum boiler temperature reached? (Does the boiler have a temperature gauge?)
 
  #38  
Old 02-03-18, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by spott View Post
B,
They are exactly the same capacity. You can use either one. They make the floor model if space is a problem for the #90.

I saw the same thing and got curious if I was missing something so I called to make sure and that's the answer I got. No difference, whatever one is more convenient to use.

I didn't mention it because I didn't want to confuse you unless you asked.

Good catch, you did your homework.
Thanks, appreciate all the help!
 
  #39  
Old 02-03-18, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by AllanJ View Post
Does the boiler pressure fluctuate between the same high value and low value as it cycles on and off?

What is the maximum boiler temperature reached? (Does the boiler have a temperature gauge?)
A,
First part of your question is a little difficult to answer. The pressures reached depend on how long the boiler needs to run. So the full 15 to 30 psi is when it is going from almost cold to close to full temperature (which typically is in the morning or at night if it has been held at a lower temp during the day if people aren't home) -- when it is cycling during the day on a weekend for example and just maintaining a temperature it doesn't really have time to go all the way down to 15 and it doesn't usually need to stay on long enough to get all the way up to 30...I'd say it likely stays between 20 and 25 psi. Another factor is how cold it is outside, the harder the boiler needs to work to raise or maintain the temperature the higher the psi.

The temp shut-off is at 180 degrees.
 
  #40  
Old 02-03-18, 12:53 PM
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Can you get the cold system pressure to be 10 PSI instead of 15 and stay that way?

I am led to believe that if the system now runs between 15 and 30 then after you drained some water out to lower the pressure to 10 then the maximum high temperature would also be double, namely 20.

The significance of the 180 degree temperature limit you gave is that, to me that means the water is not producing steam that would make the relationship between minimum pressure and maximum pressure less predictable.

At 10 PSI there may be difficulty keeping second or third floor radiators working so a cool pressure of 10 might not be realistic to live with.
 
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