Noise is driving me mad

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  #1  
Old 01-26-18, 12:00 PM
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Noise is driving me mad

Hot water system. I could hear water rushing through the pipes so loudly that it kept me awake at night. I have an overflow tank, that I thought may need draining. I did it wrong and had not turned off the water supply to it. For a short time stopped the rushing water sound, but, it caused a vibration like no other to happen in another room. UGH!

I was advised to drain the overflow tank and how to do it properly. I did that. BUT it didn't stop the vibration from happening. Granted I only did this a half hour ago.

How do I stop this noise. The pipe runs behind a wall in the basement and comes up into living room.

I do have pictures of the system if that will help.

Thank you SO much!
 
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Old 01-26-18, 12:16 PM
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Pics of everything including the boiler, tank, piping and anything else that pertains to the system.

Noise is due to air in the system that must be bled.
 
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Old 01-26-18, 12:50 PM
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Attached are the pictures. Hopefully this will be clear to you.

Thank you
 
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  #4  
Old 01-26-18, 02:14 PM
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When you drained your tank did you drain it completely or partially.

Those tanks must be drained completely in order for proper operation. If not the situation becomes worse than before.

What is your boiler pressure, how do you bleed your system, how many zones, baseboard or radiators.

I see the shutoff going to the tank but no clear pic of drain connection.
 
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Old 01-26-18, 02:27 PM
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I drained it completely via the overflow tank. I turned off the supply, removed the screw below, opened the valve that on the overflow tank (hose attached) Top picture between hot water tank and system. The overflow tank was empty.
I replaced screw. Closed valve and opened supply.

Baseboard heaters, 7 room ranch home, with a single room addition that heat was added to later. Each room has one or two baseboards. I do not know about zones. Have not bled system before. Pressure appears to be less than 10?

I the third picture from top, the red topped pipe, it seems to be the one that is vibrating.
 
  #6  
Old 01-26-18, 03:56 PM
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That red valve is your flow control valve which stops the heated water from circulating into the system unless the circulator pump is on.

That is also a check valve to stop the water from flowing back into the boiler. It only allows the water to go one way.

It may be the flapper inside the valve that you hear.

You must have a tankless coil in your boiler for domestic hot water(faucet) going into that storage tank so you need that valve.

There is a nut or screw on the top of that valve, when turned opens the valve to the manual position. Sometimes if you raise it and lower it, it will free the flapper or else you must get it replaced.

At 10 psi your pressure is low. You have an auto feed valve (bell shaped with a lever) up by the ceiling. Raise that lever to the manual position and let water in to about 15-18 psi.

If you run the system now that the tank is operating right and the air doesn't go into the tank the system will have to be bled to stop the noise.

By zones I mean how many thermostats do you have. If you only have 1 then you just have 1 zone.

Would need more pics of your boiler and pump and return line to see how to bleed, unless you know already.
 
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Old 01-26-18, 05:17 PM
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Where on the flow valve do I try to turn it?Name:  IMG_20180126_162228460.jpg
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You have an auto feed valve (bell shaped with a lever) up by the ceiling. Raise that lever to the manual position and let water in to about 15-18 psi.
I do not see that type thing. [attach]90033[/attach orName:  IMG_20180126_183602705.jpg
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Would need more pics of your boiler and pump and return line to see how to bleed, unless you know already.
Only one zone, Not sure if this is what you are needing Name:  IMG_20180126_183634434.jpg
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In some of the rooms there is a place where it appears I could bleed the line.
If the flapper is in need of replacement, is it okay to run the system? Am I in danger?
 
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  #8  
Old 01-26-18, 06:01 PM
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On the very top of the red valve, that silver thing. It's very old, it may be frozen. Be careful before it becomes an emergency if you break it or make it leak. Try rapping the valve lightly with a hammer first.

It may just be all the air in the system also.

Your feed valve is in the bottom pic. It's the gold colored valve before the relief valve with the green tag on it.

Lift up the lever and you will hear water feed into the system. Close lever back down when finished.
 
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Old 01-26-18, 06:19 PM
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Your feed valve is in the bottom pic. It's the gold colored valve before the relief valve with the green tag on it.

Lift up the lever and you will hear water feed into the system. Close lever back down when finished.
I did that and it would not close. The hissing sound continued. I had to use a wrench to close it. But the hissing did stop. I couldn't hear it anymore, what if I didn't get it closed, what happens?

I don't think it wise to try to try to play with the flow control valve on a Friday night, do you? I don't want an emergency call.

What are the dangers of waiting? Is the system at risk?
 
  #10  
Old 01-26-18, 06:32 PM
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No, there's no danger if you leave the red valve alone.

As for the feed valve. If you can put the metal end of a screwdriver on the valve and the other end to your ear like a stethoscope and see if you can hear anything.

If your satisfied it's off that's fine. If in doubt shut the manual valve off before it to stop the water from feeding in.

Depending what your skill level is I would be very careful what you touch on that system. It is very old.

If you're getting heat and hot water I would probably put things off until warmer weather in case you cannot get hold of anybody if something happens.

Just my thoughts.
 
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Old 01-26-18, 06:55 PM
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I checked the feed valve, I could not hear anything, I am fairly confident that it is off. The pressure is at 18.

(can the manual feed valve be shut off for long periods of time, and what damage would be done if it were?)

It is a very old system and scares me to pieces. I tapped the valve with a hammer. Went through one cycle with no rattling. Not sure if that fixed it or just angered it more.

Do I need to bleed each room or is one area enough as the water runs continually through it?

Thank you so much for your help and quick responses
 
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Old 01-26-18, 07:18 PM
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You can leave the manual feed off without a problem. It doesn't have to be on, just check your pressure from time to time to make sure it's fine.

Depends on your system design on how to bleed it.

If you have a loop system meaning one loop connects everything and then back to the boiler you should be able to bleed the system from the basement on your return line above the pump but I need better pics of the whole line to see if you have a shutoff and drain valve.

There is a proper procedure to bleeding also so if you are getting heat you should not have to do it.
 
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Old 01-26-18, 07:33 PM
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Thank you

Where should i focus the pictures? Rear of the system?

Most rooms have a bleeder valve. I'd have to remove the baseboard cover for each and that is a hassle, so if there is one place in basement that would probably be better.

I will take pictures in the morning.

Knocking on wood, the God awful vibration has stopped, I hope anyways, system has gone through a few times and I haven't heard it.

Thank you again, I very much appreciate your help and expertise.
 
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Old 01-26-18, 07:58 PM
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I will need pics of the pipes going to the baseboards in the basement and pics of the return line where the circulator pump is to see your system design.

If you have a loop system and have the proper valves to bleed your system you will not have to open up your baseboards.
 
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Old 01-27-18, 10:00 AM
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Good morning,

Here are pictures that I "think" you were asking for. Thanks again!

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Old 01-27-18, 10:20 AM
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On the pipe where the pump is. Can you take pics of the pipe above the pump. Are there any valves on that pipe at all.

I need some pics of the supply pipe and fittings where it goes up into the floor to the baseboard heat.

On your supply pipe from the boiler it will run along the ceiling and then with possibly a TEE fitting go up into your baseboard heat.

Does it go from one baseboard to another or does each baseboard have its own feed from a TEE.

If so look and see if there are any markings such as an arrow on the TEE.
 
  #17  
Old 01-28-18, 09:16 PM
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Most systems require bleeding at each radiator. Because radiators are "high points" in the system, air pockets can redevelop at each one.
 
  #18  
Old 01-29-18, 08:44 AM
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Getting the proper amount of air in the expansion tank is hit or miss, and tricky.

The size of the air cushion in the expansion tank shrinks and grows as the water expands and contracts as the temperatures of the water contentss in radiators, the boiler, in pipes, etc. rises and falls as the boiler cycles on and off. Should the air cushion expand too much, some air can underflow from the expansion tank and form new air pockets in radiators, etc. Assuming you have no leaks, repeated air bleeding and adding more water over a few weeks this underflow will stop and the system should become more quiet and carefree.

Unfortunately most horizontal expansion tanks do not have a Schrader valve connected to an opening on top in order to more precisely control adding and releasing of air. Not enough air in the expansion tank will result in wider swings of the pressure gauge as the boiler cycles on and off.
 
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Old 01-29-18, 04:06 PM
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Maybe I missed something, is the circulator pump running smoothly ? I never heard a flow/check valve chatter bit I guess one could with air in the line.
Sid
 
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Old 01-29-18, 05:03 PM
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The piping to your conventional expansion tank is not ideal. There should be a Bell & Gossett tank fitting - otherwise, how do you check the water fill level in the tank?

Do I see an air elimatator near where the black hose connects to the tank? That is a no-no - it will eventually deplete the air in the tank.
 
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Old 01-29-18, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by AllanJ View Post
Getting the proper amount of air in the expansion tank is hit or miss, and tricky.
Not if there is a Bell & Gossett tank fitting.
 
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Old 01-30-18, 06:50 AM
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Hi, Not sure how I would check if the pump is working properly. I mean the water circulates the house, I know, because I can hear it in.
 
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Old 01-30-18, 06:57 AM
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Most systems require bleeding at each radiator. Because radiators are "high points" in the system, air pockets can redevelop at each one.
Each room would need to be done? Is that why I hear the water in the same spots?

This is what is below the floor. Only a few are visible due to a partially finished basement. Name:  IMG_20180129_134159366.jpg
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Above in some rooms is a screw at the end before the pipe goes back under floor.

Thank you to all who are commenting. I appreciate all the help!
 
  #24  
Old 01-30-18, 11:32 AM
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T,
Where your pipe goes from your baseboard back to the basement. Does it connect into your main supply or go back into the floor to another baseboard.

In other words does your pipe go from baseboard to baseboard or is each baseboard fed individually from and returned to the main pipe.

If it goes from baseboard to BB you have a loop system which can be bled from the basement return line if you have a shut off and drawoff.

Although a tank fitting is nice to have most tanks used in residential homes don't have them or need them. They make it easier to drain the tank but you have all you need by opening the cap on the shut off valve to the tank.

That valve is called a stop and waste valve and that cap you remove will eventually break the vacuum so the water will drain. The main thing is to make sure you drain the tank completely.

As far as the water level in the tank, Once the tank is drained and refilled the water will seek its own level according to how much system pressure you have. As long as the tank is initially sized right you will not have any problems.

As far as your pump goes, if it is circulating water and you are getting heat it is working and there is nothing to check.

You will know when it's not working if it stops pumping or starts leaking. You will check the coupling or the motor or if it leaks you will check your bearing assembly.

Until then put a few drops of SAE 20 oil in the motor and bearing assembly annually and you will be fine, being careful not to over oil. A few drops is enough. Over oiling is just as bad as no oil.
 
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Old 01-30-18, 12:14 PM
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Hi
Pipe goes from baseboard to baseboard, down and up to next room until it returns to system.

If it goes from baseboard to BB you have a loop system which can be bled from the basement return line if you have a shut off and drawoff.
Where would that be located? How do I do that? And when? When system is running or shut it off first?
 
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Old 01-30-18, 12:38 PM
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You would bleed the system from the return line where the pump is.

Above the pump you should have a shutoff valve and drawioff to bleed the system.
 
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Old 02-10-18, 04:36 PM
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Noise is back

The vibration is back in the other room and getting worse. I couldn't bleed the lines. I was just going to let the gurgling go until spring.

The vibration is at the end of the loop as it returns to the basement. It is that pipe that leads to the flow control valve. The vibration happens as system begins and ends.
 
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Old 02-10-18, 07:08 PM
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If it's in the line leading back to the boiler that's not the line with the flocheck. FC is on the supply line not the return.

Why couldn't you bleed the rads?

What's your pressure reading when the noise starts.

Did you try tapping the FC again.
 
  #29  
Old 02-11-18, 05:51 PM
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To better under stand his system Trying2DoIt should refer to his green expansion tank correctly. As other posts have pointed out it is not an “overflow” tank. Tank function is to deal with expansion and contraction of hyrdronic water in a closed system.

Trying2DoIt says he drained tank but pictures show no drain valve nearby in the line to it. Yes, he could have drained system at some valve. A simple direct way to drain tank is with boiler drain valve in tee between tank and shut off valve. With that he will know tank is completed drained.

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Legend-V...ain-Ball-Valve
 
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Old 02-12-18, 04:11 AM
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Wow, 28 replies and the problem has yet to be fixed. I have to ask: What type of radiation do you have? All posts and replies indicate finned tube baseboard but looking at the pictures and wiring it could be something else. When the noise starts, what is actually happening in the system? Has the boiler just come on or shut off? Is the pump running or has it just come on ?What is the system pressure. Is it above 12 psig ( that is pounds and not feet ) , since some gauges read in pounds, some in feet only and some in both. I would raise the standing pressure (boiler and pumps off ) to 15 psig in case the gauge is not reading correctly. Have you bled all the radiation, again with the boiler and pumps off? Have you checked the pumps and the pump's couplers ? Depending on the type of coupler , they will emit sounds that could be considered vibration and since you say "the noise is driving me mad" I would suspect a broken coupler , a bad bearing assembly, a loose or broken impeller , Motor bearings , or a combination of 2 or more, since everything has been checked already. Does the boiler come on and stay on for a normal time or does it come on and shut off repeatedly? If you answer all these things positively and all items mentioned have been addressed , it may be time to seek professional help. 1 last item , if the boiler pressure is too low and the pump starts , the pump action could cause the water to flow past the flow control valve causing it to vibrate although this would normally not cause a loud noise just a disturbing one. " My 2 cents "
 

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Old 02-12-18, 09:10 AM
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Hi,

I did try tapping it again. The pressure was down, so I added more water to system. NOW, the spigot for manual feed is dripping, no matter how much I tighten it. OH BOY.

I didn't bleed system as I really couldn't figure out which to turn off and it is confusing. There are a lot of knobs and pipes.
 
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Old 02-12-18, 09:18 AM
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Doughess, Thank you for your response. My apologies for misstating what the GREEN tank was called. I am unsure if calling it the wrong thing makes a whole heck of a lot of difference in correcting the issue, though.
I knew it was empty, when water stopped coming out of it.
 
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Old 02-12-18, 09:23 AM
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Steamboy, thank you for your response. It is finned tube baseboards. Sound happens when the circulation begins and ends. Sometimes loud and obnoxious, sometimes not as bad.

I get heat and it stays on regular amount of time best of my recollection. I have not bled the lines, and don't believe they have been done with regular system upkeep. Part of issue was I was unsure how to do it.
 
  #34  
Old 02-12-18, 10:06 AM
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Take the cover off one of the baseboard units and take a picture of each end and the whole unit and post those pictures. It may bhelp us determine what or how to bleed the air. There has to be a way to purge the air from the units.
 
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Old 02-12-18, 10:32 AM
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from the bathroom, left and right side of the unit.
 
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Old 02-12-18, 12:42 PM
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In the bottom picture all the way to the right is a device that looks like a vent. It could be an automatic or manual vent. I can't tell from the photo since I can't see it very well . Look on the very top, does it have a screw driver slot or a square shaft? If it is a screw driver slot, you should be able to turn it ccw to open and cw to close. If it has a square top (some have both a square and a slot , you will need a key that can be bought at most hardware or Home Depot or Lowes stores. If it doesn't have either then it may be an automatic vent. A better picture from the front with the front cover off and a little more light may give a better view. If it has a screw slot or square top and you can turn it , you will need to shut off the boiler and pump to vent the baseboard. Look closely to see if it has any numbers or a name on it You could clean it with a soft wire brush.to expose any information printed on it. You can also "GOOGLE" air eliminators and automatic vents and look to see if your vent looks anything they show on different sites
 
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Old 02-12-18, 02:31 PM
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T,
Right below the blue handle on your manual valve before the feed is a nut, called a check nut. Tighten that nut with a wrench by turning clockwise a little until the leak stops.

It's pretty common to do this after opening and closing.

Why was your pressure low. Do you keep that valve shut off so the auto feed valve cannot maintain pressure.

Even if you left it open, unless you have a leak or worked on the system there should be no loss of pressure.

As far as bleeding goes can you post a pic of your return line above the pump to see if you have any valves.

If not you have a screw on that pictured vent as S B mentioned. Just loosen it and see what comes out.

You may do more harm than good if you have low pressure or do not know the procedure.

If you are getting heat and are just worrying about the noise and were not sure how to bleed I wouldn't play with it just now.

Air in the system would not make a loud noise. It would react as no heat or it would sound like running water in your baseboard heat.

Any chance of making some type of video with the sound. My guess is probably the pump or the flocheck since it only happens when the pump comes on.

You have an old B&G pump. Could be a bad bearing assembly.
 
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Old 02-15-18, 05:31 AM
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I called on the expert. As soon as I called, the noise stopped and wasn't making it for service call.

System doesn't have a central location to bleed, so each room will have to be done.

​​​​​​Given the age of the system and other issues, I have been advised to replace the system with a more efficient one.

Thank you for your help and guidance, I appreciate it very much.
 
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