Replacing a circa 1960 oil burner and motor with newer one.
#1
11-10-18, 11:41 AM
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Replacing a circa 1960 oil burner and motor with newer one.
I have an old boiler that provides both heat and DHW using an internal tank. The "new boiler" fund has been started, but it will be awhile before the $7k to $9K is available.
Certainly not this Winter but hopefully next year I will be ready to pull the trigger.
Meanwhile, I would like to replace both the current burner and motor. My idea would be that the new replacements would be compatible with the new boiler when I eventually have one installed.
The current motor is a Westinghouse from the last century as is the Arco (?) burner. I've attached a slew of pics with as many manufacturing labels visible as I could find. Hoping that there is some sort of direct replacements out there.
Any ideas?
Thank you in advance.
It it helps, I would probably be going with either a rather generic WM or a more expensive 3 pass Buderus. Regardless of boiler, I will be going with and indirect DHW tank and not a coil.
Certainly not this Winter but hopefully next year I will be ready to pull the trigger.
Meanwhile, I would like to replace both the current burner and motor. My idea would be that the new replacements would be compatible with the new boiler when I eventually have one installed.
The current motor is a Westinghouse from the last century as is the Arco (?) burner. I've attached a slew of pics with as many manufacturing labels visible as I could find. Hoping that there is some sort of direct replacements out there.
Any ideas?
Thank you in advance.
It it helps, I would probably be going with either a rather generic WM or a more expensive 3 pass Buderus. Regardless of boiler, I will be going with and indirect DHW tank and not a coil.
#2
11-10-18, 01:20 PM
Rob,
You can either go with a Beckett or a Carlin replacement burner with a flange or Beckett makes a pedestal kit.
That being said unless you are having trouble with your current burner, although old, you can still get parts while you save for a new boiler.
When you get a new boiler, my suggestion is to buy the boiler/burner combination. You want the burner made for that boiler for the best lab tested efficiency.
Truth be told you save very little by just buying the boiler and it's not worth the aggravation of readapting the old burner to the new boiler which you will have to do.
A new Beckett complete is going to run you 400 and up unless you pick up a used one . If you buy the boiler minus burner you may save 200 if your lucky. It's not worth it in my estimation.
Your current boiler may also have a metal firebox instead of the current ceramic chambers, which I recommend you also replace because the high intense heat delivered from the new burners today compared to the old burners, would destroy that firebox.
My suggestion would be to have a pro come and look at your situation and get their take and advice on what would have to be done and if it's worth it to try and hold off until a new unit can be installed.
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Beckett-...f2702f7756c89c
The tube and additional parts is between 50-75 at least. Look under description to give you some idea.
Hope this helps a little.
You can either go with a Beckett or a Carlin replacement burner with a flange or Beckett makes a pedestal kit.
That being said unless you are having trouble with your current burner, although old, you can still get parts while you save for a new boiler.
When you get a new boiler, my suggestion is to buy the boiler/burner combination. You want the burner made for that boiler for the best lab tested efficiency.
Truth be told you save very little by just buying the boiler and it's not worth the aggravation of readapting the old burner to the new boiler which you will have to do.
A new Beckett complete is going to run you 400 and up unless you pick up a used one . If you buy the boiler minus burner you may save 200 if your lucky. It's not worth it in my estimation.
Your current boiler may also have a metal firebox instead of the current ceramic chambers, which I recommend you also replace because the high intense heat delivered from the new burners today compared to the old burners, would destroy that firebox.
My suggestion would be to have a pro come and look at your situation and get their take and advice on what would have to be done and if it's worth it to try and hold off until a new unit can be installed.
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Beckett-...f2702f7756c89c
The tube and additional parts is between 50-75 at least. Look under description to give you some idea.
Hope this helps a little.
#3
11-10-18, 02:39 PM
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 21
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Thank you the informative reply. It is much appreciated.
I guess I left out some important info:
Been having intermittent firing issues the last month. Boiler will run fine for a couple of days and then I have to hit the red reset button on the Aquastat (Honeywell R8182D). Replaced the Aquastat and still had the issues. Replaced the CAD Cell and still have issues.
Replaced the tank filter, still have issues.
When this first started I called a pro and was told the Aquastat was the problem, that is why I replaced it.
Had the tech service the boiler and it still only runs for a few days before the problems creep up again.
I don't think it is a fuel issue. Every time the boiler stops, a single tap on the red reset button fires it up. Typically will go to High Limit (200 deg F) and then shut down. That is when it won't restart. Once in awhile it will shut down at 185-190ish and not reach the High Limit.
Once the Low Limit is reached (per gauge on boiler) it often won't relight.
If I call for heat or DHW it makes no difference. Once the boiler is in this funk, the only way it relights is with a reset.
I'm thinking Ignition, that is why the question about a burner/motor replacement. I suppose I should test the transformer and electrodes first, before I spend any more $$
I'm afraid to leave the house for a week during the Holidays and if a new burner/motor fixes the issue I'm ok with eating the extra costs. For sure this old boiler has seen better days and will be replaced in April when the snow stops falling ;-)
I'm having a hard time finding real tradesmen around here that have the skills for actual troubleshooting these issues. Mostly young guys that are barely out of the trade school. Not knocking them, but sometimes you need years of experience to jump from "parts replacer" (which, apparently is what I'm doing) to actual troubleshooting.
Thanks again for your comments.
I guess I left out some important info:
Been having intermittent firing issues the last month. Boiler will run fine for a couple of days and then I have to hit the red reset button on the Aquastat (Honeywell R8182D). Replaced the Aquastat and still had the issues. Replaced the CAD Cell and still have issues.
Replaced the tank filter, still have issues.
When this first started I called a pro and was told the Aquastat was the problem, that is why I replaced it.
Had the tech service the boiler and it still only runs for a few days before the problems creep up again.
I don't think it is a fuel issue. Every time the boiler stops, a single tap on the red reset button fires it up. Typically will go to High Limit (200 deg F) and then shut down. That is when it won't restart. Once in awhile it will shut down at 185-190ish and not reach the High Limit.
Once the Low Limit is reached (per gauge on boiler) it often won't relight.
If I call for heat or DHW it makes no difference. Once the boiler is in this funk, the only way it relights is with a reset.
I'm thinking Ignition, that is why the question about a burner/motor replacement. I suppose I should test the transformer and electrodes first, before I spend any more $$
I'm afraid to leave the house for a week during the Holidays and if a new burner/motor fixes the issue I'm ok with eating the extra costs. For sure this old boiler has seen better days and will be replaced in April when the snow stops falling ;-)
I'm having a hard time finding real tradesmen around here that have the skills for actual troubleshooting these issues. Mostly young guys that are barely out of the trade school. Not knocking them, but sometimes you need years of experience to jump from "parts replacer" (which, apparently is what I'm doing) to actual troubleshooting.
Thanks again for your comments.
#4
11-10-18, 04:27 PM
My guess is your on the right trail with looking at the ignition as the problem. I would check the electrodes but my guess would be the transformer. Those old transformers have bakelite (black tar like substance) that breaks down and can cause intermittent problems.
It could work a day or a week and the one time just not light because of a problem in that black bakelite and there's no way to test for it, or it could be just wearing out and not putting out the voltage to create a good spark.
Those transformers are 10,000V where the new ones are about 17,000, unfortunately because of the location and design of your you just can't get an off the self part. You need one that fits your burner with the proper base and terminals.
Anyway, I would concentrate on the ignition and don't let them sell you anything else.
Just for your info and maybe theirs. The cad cell only comes into play after the fire is lit so with no ignition happening it wouldn't be the cad cell. If it were the aquastat not powering the burner it just would not come on. It wouldn't go off on reset, so you could have eliminated the aquastat, besides, all these parts can be tested before being replaced.
In one of your pics of the motor you show a red square button. That is a reset button if the motor develops problems so if that button doesn't pop out and have to be manually reset don't let them sell you a motor.
If it was an air problem in the pump or oil system it would have to be bled before it would start every time and the problem would be constant, not intermittent as your is and the pump either works or it doesn't.
If they are just going to parts change instead of diagnosing the problem I would look for another company.
In looking at your pics again, the transformer looks like it has a sticky covering on it which is what the new ones come with which suggests to me that the transformer may be new or recently replaced. Make sure you are getting a good connection to the electrodes, Some of those older ones had fasteners that held things in place. If you pull that cover off that says arcoflame you can see the electrode connections and how they come into contact together.
Just a thought.
It could work a day or a week and the one time just not light because of a problem in that black bakelite and there's no way to test for it, or it could be just wearing out and not putting out the voltage to create a good spark.
Those transformers are 10,000V where the new ones are about 17,000, unfortunately because of the location and design of your you just can't get an off the self part. You need one that fits your burner with the proper base and terminals.
Anyway, I would concentrate on the ignition and don't let them sell you anything else.
Just for your info and maybe theirs. The cad cell only comes into play after the fire is lit so with no ignition happening it wouldn't be the cad cell. If it were the aquastat not powering the burner it just would not come on. It wouldn't go off on reset, so you could have eliminated the aquastat, besides, all these parts can be tested before being replaced.
In one of your pics of the motor you show a red square button. That is a reset button if the motor develops problems so if that button doesn't pop out and have to be manually reset don't let them sell you a motor.
If it was an air problem in the pump or oil system it would have to be bled before it would start every time and the problem would be constant, not intermittent as your is and the pump either works or it doesn't.
If they are just going to parts change instead of diagnosing the problem I would look for another company.
In looking at your pics again, the transformer looks like it has a sticky covering on it which is what the new ones come with which suggests to me that the transformer may be new or recently replaced. Make sure you are getting a good connection to the electrodes, Some of those older ones had fasteners that held things in place. If you pull that cover off that says arcoflame you can see the electrode connections and how they come into contact together.
Just a thought.
