Ideas wanted for exercising the nuisance trip demon from my oil boiler

Reply

  #1  
Old 12-06-18, 05:36 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 23
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Ideas wanted for exercising the nuisance trip demon from my oil boiler

Hello All

16 year old Smith Boiler with a Beckett oil burner and Iron Core ignition installed in a small damp crawlspace. Acquired the property back in May, hired a local HVAC company to do $1500 worth of work replacing the headers and expansion tank and general tune up.

Heating season starts back in October, Beginning of November nuisance lockout (Honeywell R8184G1294) #1 happens. Press red button,boiler immediately fires up, no extra smoke or lag in firing. 30 days later, no heat again, again lockout tripped, press button, boiler immediately fires bright yellow flame no problem.

Troubleshooting performed:
- Cycle the boiler on and off about 40 times successfully
- Aquastat was replaced in between lockout #1 and #2 for another reason (header valve stem was leaking and dripping onto the aquastat board, shorted out)
- Ran a full boiler cycle (cold to 200 degrees) with the CAD cell monitored on multimeter, resistance was 1400-1500 Ohms the whole run
- Banged the sides of the Honeywell R8184 with screwdriver handle while running to try to rule out soft relay
- I don't think the oil gun has moved at all or anything. The crawlspace is a PITA to access, under a deck (genius who designed it should be jailed) so I'm the only one other than mice who ever go down there. And I think if the gaps had moved or anything I wouldn't have gotten a solid month of runs in between lockouts

So where to next? My next logical thought would be the Iron Core transformer is getting weak. I don't really want to risk dying in a cold wet crawlspace so I don't really want to do the screwdriver arc test and I don't have a 20kV multimeter, would assume buy and replace the part.

Could it be water in the Oil tank?

Also, while peering through the port to the burn chamber while observing the flame, I noticed basically all of the corners of the burn chamber are filled with what I would describe as 'flaky ash'. Is this normal? Should this be cleaned out of the chamber?

Thanks for any help or advice.
 
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 12-06-18, 05:40 PM
PJmax's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Northern NJ - USA
Posts: 53,203
Received 378 Votes on 355 Posts
They did all that work this year ? Call them back.
An oil fired unit should be cleaned every season but it should not have ash buildup in a less then a month of use.
 
  #3  
Old 12-06-18, 10:01 PM
Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 2,709
Received 14 Votes on 14 Posts
S,
When they did the tuneup they should have set the burner up with a combustion analyzer kit.

You mentioned ash in the chamber and a bright yellow fire. The ash should have been vacuumed out at the time of the cleaning and if it was but reappeared after only a month you burner is burning badly with a wrong fuel/air mixture. You are running rich as the mechanics say, which is your bright yellow fire. That yellow fire is a sign of not enough air and the result is soot build up which is nothing more than unburned oil.

As far as your periodic shut downs, considering where you have to work and the conditions I would replace the transformer. They are not that expensive and is the one part that will intermittently give you trouble.

If your other controls are bad they will be consistently bad and when they fail they fail permanently where as a transformer may fail to ignite one time and then light for a week or a month and then for some reason not light again. If you had water in the oil, water doesn't burn and unless removed it would never light.

Your cad cell only comes into play once you have a fire, telling the primary control it's OK to keep running. You possibly could have a crack or worn or misaligned electrodes but that should hve been caught and addressed by the tech that did the work.

As you know water and dampness are electrical components worst nightmare. Although I never recommend just parts changing, in your situation a transformer replacement would be, I think, a worthwhile move and if for some reason the problem persists, the worst thing is, you now have a spare transformer.

Hope this helps a little.
 
  #4  
Old 12-06-18, 10:28 PM
Grady's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Delaware, The First State
Posts: 13,936
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
With the high ohm reading, I would doubt the flame is too rich. Generally, a lean flame will give a higher ohm reading than a rich one. I too don't ordinarily suggest just throwing parts at a problem but the cause of intermittent lockouts can be tough to find. Iron core transformers do tend to get weak but on the other hand, split phase motors don't like damp conditions either. The motors with a capacitor seem to tolerate dampness better in my experience.
 
  #5  
Old 12-07-18, 05:50 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 23
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Thanks Spott,

Would you suggest replacing the Iron core with another Allanson Iron Core transformer or go with a Solid state (either Allanson or Becket as it appears Supply house has both reasonable priced to each other)?

Thanks
 
  #6  
Old 12-07-18, 05:54 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 23
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Thanks Grady,

That's good insight about the Ohm reading relation to the burn.

Now I've seen several other posts about bad motors (even one that had a bad spot on the winding causing intermittent faults) but can someone post me a link to an example replacement motor so I can see what part it is we're talking about? I know the controls side of the boiler pretty well but the burner assembly is where my knowledge ends.

Thanks
 
  #7  
Old 12-07-18, 05:57 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 23
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Or ya know I could be resourceful and google it myself. This what you're talking about?

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Beckett-...BoCzN4QAvD_BwE

Thanks
 
  #8  
Old 12-07-18, 07:41 AM
Grady's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Delaware, The First State
Posts: 13,936
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
That motor is the one for your burner.
 
  #9  
Old 12-07-18, 08:20 AM
Member
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: us
Posts: 634
Received 9 Votes on 9 Posts
Slay The Demons & Replace With Real Data!

Finding demons would be a lot easier for those with Honeywell R8184 controllers if replaced with $65 Honeywell R7284U smart controller that shows history of why it tripped.

When burner with R7284U is running LCD display shows real time status. When tripped/locked-out can display history with reason and other data.. The $65 will be repaid many times. The comfort it provides on a cold winter day makes life easier.

The R7284U is universal with many selectable setting, unlike Beckett controllers which have added prices for displays and different models for time settings. Beckett was rebranding Honeywell controllers but now makes their own.

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Honeywel...RoCO7AQAvD_BwE

https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.supplyho...s/R7284Bro.pdf

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKSqkpX4N5E

I am not into brands, have Beckett burners with Honeywell controllers. On cold winter nights, want system that is reliable, easily diagnosed and maintained.
 

Last edited by doughess; 12-07-18 at 11:01 AM.
  #10  
Old 12-07-18, 11:56 AM
Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 2,709
Received 14 Votes on 14 Posts
S,
9I would go with the solid state. There all made by Allanson even though it may say Beckett or Carlin. The one you have now puts out 10,000V where as the solid state puts out 17,500V for a much stronger spark.

The iron core can give you problems like you're having now with intermittent shutdowns where as the solid state either works or it doesn't. From my experience they have been very reliable.

As for your motor, the one that you found on Supplyhouse doesn't have any reset button on it. The new ones don't. If you have the older style round heavy motor if you look there is a red square button which is your reset button if the motor itself develops a problem.

If you current motor was acting up you would have to reset it by that button for it to start again.

Without picks it's hard to tell what you have.

This is a pic of what you are looking for although this is a different H.P. than what you need, it's a pic of the thermal overload button like the one yours will have.

https://www.supplyhouse.com/US-Motor...-8-HP-1725-RPM.
 
  #11  
Old 12-07-18, 12:09 PM
Grady's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Delaware, The First State
Posts: 13,936
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
sniperpiper,
I think this is the motor Spott was referring to:
https://www.supplyhouse.com/US-Motor...-7-HP-3450-RPM
 
  #12  
Old 12-09-18, 12:40 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 23
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Thanks Guys,

I ordered a replacement motor:

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Beckett-...-7-HP-3450-RPM

as I think this is capacitive vs split phase?

And I ordered a replacement transformer (Solid state):
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Beckett-...r-for-A-AF-AFG

They'll be here on Monday, going ton install Tuesday. My plan of attack is:

- Install transformer (I've done one before so not worried about install)
- Start up boiler to make sure I haven't ruined anything
- Install motor (do I need to do anything else in this step? or is it just swap the part)
- Start and test again.
 
  #13  
Old 12-09-18, 02:59 PM
Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 2,709
Received 14 Votes on 14 Posts
S,
The transformer is pretty straight forward.

If you replace the motor you will have to remove the squirrel cage from the shaft which will require a long handle allen wrench, 1/8" I believe and depending how long it's been on there possibly a puller. They can be very stubborn and if you crush it trying to pry it off your done, and it must be properly centered when reinstalling. There is very little tolerance in the housing. Take note of the fan location on the shaft. You have very little wiggle room in the housing. It must turn freely.

You also might want to check the coupling which is attached to the motor and pump when you remove the motor. If it shows signs of wear you may want to replace it while you're there. You have 2 removable ends and a middle that go into the ends. An part could get worn.

It is up to you of course but if you have not been resetting your motor and do not have plenty of time to do the job and the tools on hand I would leave the current one on until you are better prepared.

I have a dry basement with an ideal situation and I just had to change my own motor and actually had to use a puller to get the fan off.

With the dampness and wet conditions you are working in It's probably welded on there. I may be wrong, and hope I am but be prepared.

Hope this helps a little.
 
  #14  
Old 12-09-18, 05:02 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 23
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Cool, thanks for the advice.

Reading this thread: https://www.doityourself.com/forum/b...ner-motor.html

it mentions a 3/64" feeler gauge, and judging by the beckett pictures, this feeler gauge would be used to offset the squirrel cage from the motor to allow for 'intended' mounting on the motor shaft. Do I have that assumption correct?

Thanks, you've definitely given me room for pause, glad you gave me the heads up before I got down there, disassembled and started cursing trying to get the blower off.
 
  #15  
Old 12-09-18, 05:39 PM
Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 2,709
Received 14 Votes on 14 Posts
S,
As far as the feeler gauge goes it's on the Beckett sight so I would guess it would be right. Personally, I've never used one so I can't say but that gives you some idea of the tolerances that you're working with.

It wouldn't hurt to have one handy but you'll be able to tell when you get it out. If it's not precise you will rub against one side or the other. It won't take you long to see what you have to do.

When you get it put back together and mount the motor, lift up the transformer and make sure the fan spins freely with your hand before you wire everything up. You may have to adjust but you'll get the knack of it.
 
  #16  
Old 12-10-18, 02:06 PM
Grady's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Delaware, The First State
Posts: 13,936
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
sniperpiper: Spott is dead on with his suggestion of being well prepared when you go to change the motor. After 30+ years of dealing with these types of things, I know he speaks with the voice of experience. Good Luck
 
Reply

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Display Modes
 
Ask a Question
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: