Bell and Gossette Circulator

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  #1  
Old 03-15-19, 08:38 AM
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Bell and Gossette Circulator

Hello,

Newbie here. My hydronic heating is very old . It has 2 zones with 2 circulators.
One of the calculators, B and G, is wired directly to the electric panel by passing aquastat.
my question is how does it get call for heat?
Is it connected directly to the thermostat? I only see one wire coming out of it going to the electric panel.
 
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  #2  
Old 03-15-19, 10:58 AM
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Iím not one of the experts here but that seems like a really strange setup. If your circulator is directly connected to a breaker panel then the circulator would be running 100% of the time.

There must be relays somewhere that the thermostat for that zone connects to, to get the burner to come on when the thermostat wants heat. In other words, the circulator runs all the time and when the thermostat for that zone wants heat, it only needs to get the burner to run to heat the water so hot water is circulated through the zone. I think that works but it's a strange setup.

(1) Are you 100% positive you are tracing the right wires?

(2) What model Aquastat do you have?

(3) Are there any other control boxes around besides the Aquastat, and if so what are the model numbers?

Iím sure that the experts will be along.
 
  #3  
Old 03-15-19, 11:33 AM
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Circulator does not run all time. I checked it runs on and off.
I can see only one wire coming out of it going to breaker panel.
Aqua stat is old one honeywell L4018b1013, which is also acting up, like does not shut off the burner on high limit.
right now high is 150 but it goes to 180 plus.it doesn't have differential knob.
there is junction box, where power is coming in and then its going to aquastat, burner and the other circulator.
 
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Old 03-15-19, 11:39 AM
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If you have two zones with two circulators..... then there are two controls. The aquastat could be one and then there would need to be a second relay. You should see one pump connect to each control. The second relay will also have a thermostat wire connecting it.

Post a few pictures of what you have there...... How-to-insert-pictures.
 
  #5  
Old 03-16-19, 04:09 AM
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What information are you looking for? Do you want to know how the system operates and how it is controlled or just general information? More information is needed for anyone to make an informed comment on your system. information needed; type of radiation, zone valves or flow control valves, number and location of the thermostats, make and model of the boiler, pictures of the boiler and piping. And, by the way, that B&G pump you referenced can not have only 1 wire coming out of it if it actually runs. There were so many different "hook-up" possibilities that giving an answer now would be just a guess. My 2 cents
 
  #6  
Old 03-16-19, 08:11 AM
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My hunch is that Vsmartin is using the term ďwireĒ to mean an NM cable. I know a lot of people do that. But, still, I donít see how it can be directly connected to a breaker panel? Especially since Vsmartin says that the B&G pump turns ON/OFF. Maybe itís something that only looks like a breaker panel (but those seem to me to be pretty distinct). So something doesnít make sense there.

IMHO, as everyone has already stated, pictures and more information would help.
 
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Old 03-16-19, 05:45 PM
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Pics would be very helpful and necessary to diagnose further but this is just a shot in the dark.

As was mentioned you need some type of relay for every pump you run. By one wire running back to your panel, if you mean your breaker panel the only way it could be wired so the pump would turn on and off is for the pump to be wired through the stat.

To have your zone pump run that way you would need to have a line voltage stat and you would series wire the zone from the panel to the stat and back to the panel. This would have the pump run on a call for heat and the boiler would run on the aquastat to maintain water temp. I'm guessing you have a tankless in your boiler for domestic hot water so the boiler runs 24/7 to maintain a certain temp.

I ran into these setups a long time ago when people added zones and tried to wire themselves. If you want to use the aquastat which is the right way you'll need a relay and low voltage stat and rewire.

An added thought here. If it is wired the way I described be careful if working on that zone because I doubt if the boiler switch will shut off the power to that zone. It is most likely independently wired and the stat and pump are 120V.

Hope this helps a little.
 
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Old 03-18-19, 06:46 AM
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Guys, I agree with you. It doesn't make sense. But I checked again, it is hooked up directly to the breaker.
I turned off the breaker, it turns off. I am posting a pic but it;s bit dark.
Spott, I don't see any an inline stat. yes i have coil for DHW.
I turned off the breaker to see if Iget heat in that zone , No heat.
I turn it on , start heating up.
 
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Old 03-18-19, 03:29 PM
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You mentioned the pump connected to the panel cycles by itself. Directly wired like that I cannot see how. There must be a stat somewhere and where does it go.

The Honeywell dual control you show I assume is connected to the other circ. and prevents it from running when the boiler temp drops below the low limit setting so you can have hot domestic water. Where are your stat wires and what do they operate. Pics of the boiler and all controls would be very helpful if possible.
 
  #10  
Old 03-19-19, 06:40 AM
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I wonder if there might be an abandoned control somewhere on that system that used to control that B&G pump. I was just thinking that suppose a control failed one cold day and someone got the idea to just bypass that control and connect the pump to the panel and run the pump all of the time. Maybe just as a temporary measure that became permanent.

Seems like you would still get heat to both zones, but probably the temperature would not be controlled very well. But I guess as spott says this Ė

Pics of the boiler and all controls would be very helpful if possible.
is really important, all else is speculation.
 
  #11  
Old 03-19-19, 06:48 AM
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I will get more pics tomorrow. The wires to the aquastat are coming from a junction box.
Junction box is feeding burner, aquastat and the other circ.

Spott, you are spot on , i found the other in line voltage stat. So both stat and circ are connected to the breaker?

So my next question is how do i get this right?

Two zones, two cirs , DHW coil.


I will try to post more pics tomorrow of the whole setup.
 

Last edited by Vsmartin; 03-19-19 at 09:18 AM.
  #12  
Old 03-19-19, 11:41 AM
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V,
Your system will work this way but you have no domestic hot water priority. In other words your heating pumps continue to run on a call for heat even if the boiler temp drops below the low limit. In a properly controlled system the pumps would shut off at a low temp reading giving your domestic hot water priority so you don't end up with a cold shower just because the heat came on and emptied the boiler out of hot water for the heat.

What you need are the proper triple action aquastat in place of that dual aquastat you have now and individual relay and low voltage stat for the second pump. You could use a Taco control panel in place of the relay but either way you must have the right aquastat to begin with. Can get a better sense of what you have after pics are posted. Couple of aquastat and relay options below. Single relay or 2 zone for simplicity and a 24V stat of your choice.

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Switching-Relays-443000

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Honeywel...j-Differential

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Honeywel...ronic-Aquastat

Just curious but why are you interested in upgrading.
 
  #13  
Old 03-19-19, 01:51 PM
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Well, reasons are

1. Aquastat is not shutting off the boiler at high limit. It seems high limit does not work at all.
2. As you mentioned, cold showers sometimes.

Upgrading the controls won' t be easy i guess. have to identify all the wires (t - stat, cirs ete)
 
  #14  
Old 03-20-19, 06:55 AM
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More pics of the set up...
 
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Old 03-20-19, 06:16 PM
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If that is all you have for wiring connections and that one aquastat then it looks like your t-stat is a line voltage model also so that will have to be changed. New stat wire may have to be run to the two stats or at the very least spliced onto the existing wire depending what you use for stats. No need to change the piping to change the control system.
 
  #16  
Old 03-21-19, 05:42 AM
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Why is there only one flow control valve if this is a two zone system?

i found the other in line voltage stat. So both stat and circ are connected to the breaker?
That stat can’t be connected to the breaker.
 

Last edited by zoesdad; 03-21-19 at 06:15 AM.
  #17  
Old 03-21-19, 06:46 AM
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Yes both t stats are line voltage.

Zoesdad there are 2 flow control valve (red and green).
 
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Old 03-21-19, 07:15 AM
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I see the other flow control now. My bad.

But did you ever figure out what the second thermostat is connected to? It canít be connected to the breaker panel.
 
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Old 03-21-19, 07:23 AM
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Well i will dig deep into it but now facing with another issue.

Relief valve was leaking , so i change rellief/Reducing valve combo and put in a new expansion tank as well.

Bled the system properly.

Now pressure is constantly 25 to 35 sometimes. prv not dripping. checked it by lifting the lever, it's working but not dripping even at 40 psi (pressure reading this morning).

checked pressure on the tank before installing, it was 16 psi, it's a small tank (2.1G) but the old one was the same size.

I shut the fill valve but still pressure is somewhere between 20 cold) to 30-35 hot.

I am going to try a bigger tank , if that doesn't work , probably there is leak in the DHW coil.
 
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Old 03-21-19, 08:15 AM
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I think the PRV is supposed to discharge at 30 psi. If you are seeing higher pressures and the PRV is not discharging then something must be wrong. Did you check the tag on the PRV and verify that it says it is rated for 30 psi? Are you sure your pressure gauge is good?

There is a “sticky” in the sticky list for this forum that tells you “How to verify a boiler pressure gauge” if case you wanted to verify your gauge.

Also, is there any adjustment for the reducing valve? Just thinking maybe there is an adjustment that might be set too high from the factory – although you would doubt it.
 

Last edited by zoesdad; 03-21-19 at 08:21 AM. Reason: added "Also, is ...
  #21  
Old 03-21-19, 09:14 AM
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checked the label it says reducing valve set at 12 - 15 psi
relief valve set at 30psi
But I bought this from big box store so maybe it's bad out of the box.

Yeah gauge seems a bit off but i drained the boiler and it showed 0 psi until i filled it back.
 
  #22  
Old 03-21-19, 10:35 AM
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Wonder what in the heck could be going on there! supplyhouse.com has an expansion tank size calculator. Maybe that would shed some light:

https://www.supplyhouse.com/resources/calculators

I think spott and maybe some of the other knowledgeable guys will weigh in later.
 
  #23  
Old 03-21-19, 10:38 AM
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V,
Starting with the extrol tank. A 2.1 gallon tank is a #15 which is too small for your system and doubt the other one was that small. You need at least a #30 which is 4.4 gal. and make sure you opened the valve before the tank.

If your relief valve is not leaking then most likely your gauge is a little off.

If your coil had a leak your relief valve would be spewing water because of the constant feeding of fresh water just as if you removed your boiler feed valve and left your manual valve open. Since your boiler reaches a certain pressure and stops I would eliminate the coil. If you want to test it you can remove water from your boiler down to 20psi and shut off the cold water valve to the coil overnight when you go to bed and check the pressure in the morning. If it's the same as you have been seeing then it's not the coil. You can also feel the cold water feed pipe going to the boiler. Once the boiler is pressured for a while the pipe will be around room temp. If it's cold after a day like it's been feeding water then it could be your feed valve.

Again start with 20psi and shut your valve off before the feed and check the next day. My guess is all your problems stem from the wrong size tank.

If you have any cast iron rads in the system you need at least a #60 extrol tank. Reasons are another story.

Your stat would not be directly connected to a breaker although it may appear to be but it is connected in series with the pump which will turn it on and off on temp demand.

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Expansion-Tanks-353000 Your options with info.
 
  #24  
Old 03-21-19, 11:18 AM
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I still have the old tank , its # 15. I wanted to put in size 30 tank but the space is tight.
I have to maneuver the elbow 180 deg so i can hang a bigger tank.
But will try to put in the new tank.

BTW ca n i check pressure by connecting this gauge directly to the boiler drain?

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Watts-3-...IWTG/100175467

Thanks for the help guys, specially spott.
 
  #25  
Old 03-21-19, 11:31 AM
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That tank is fine. Amtrol was just an example. As long as content is the same. It doesn't have to be installed the same way. In fact that is an odd place for the tank. It is generally installed above the boiler in the supply line. You can extend or do whatever to make it fit.

You can use that gauge as you described. If they have a lower pressure scale it may give you a better reading since you're only looking for up to 30psi. A 50 or 100psi gauge would do.

BTW if your old tank is good and you already have the new #15, instead of buying a #30 you can have two #15's. Remove the 15 you have and add fittings like nipples and tees and use two # 15's for same result.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Water-So...H100/308724108

Just a thought.
 

Last edited by spott; 03-21-19 at 11:48 AM.
  #26  
Old 03-21-19, 12:45 PM
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Old tank was full of water , so no good.
But I have #30 tank , so I will replace 15 with 30 and hope for the best.
 
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