Click..Hmmm, click..hmmm, click..hmmm?

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Old 02-14-20, 05:09 AM
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Click..Hmmm, click..hmmm, click..hmmm?

Like the title says, I hear this sometimes when the boiler is trying to start. Burnham V8H series installed 5 years ago. It sounds like the blower is trying to start but has a locked rotor. When heat is called for after a zone calls for heat or the boiler heat gets too low, sometimes I hear this click..hmm. My room is next to the furnace room so I can leave the door open to hear it. Doesn't happen all the time. Not sure it's involved with any of the zones, it only happens when the burner is trying to start. Most of the time it sounds fine and starts normally. It always does start but sometimes I hear the click hmm maybe 4-5 times in a row and then it pauses, tries again and either starts or click hmm again but usually after the 2nd time it only clicks maybe 1-2 times and starts. It always does start. The pattern is about as fast as you can normally say click...hmmm repeating sometimes.

I've been next to the boiler once or twice when this happens and it only lasts such a short time it's really hard to tell where it's coming from. Ideas appreciated before something fails.

I did replace an old B&H circulator recently. The impeller really looked rusty & nasty. Installed in '85.. Replaced it with a Taco 007 5F series as I remember but this click hmmm started before that and continues. I don't hear anything untoward this morning, it's been cycling normally.

The click sounds like relay contactors clicking in.
 
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Old 02-14-20, 05:44 AM
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Hi, a boiler is not going to have a blower motor, is it the circulator trying to start?
Geo
 
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Old 02-14-20, 05:58 AM
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Blower motor, fan whatever. The thing that runs the oil pump and blows air into the chamber along with the oil. There are 2 circulators. One is for radiant heat downstairs and the other one is for 3 zones upstairs. the Circulators are independent of the blower/fan/oil motor. The fan/oil motor goes on when the boiler cools off enough for the boiler to start, so it may start when calling for heat or may not depending on the temp of the water in the boiler. there is also a tankless heater, so the boiler water temp always stays between 2 set points. The radiant heat only runs when heat is called for and the temp is between the set points it keeps the domestic water heat from running down.
 
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Old 02-14-20, 06:43 AM
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Are you saying the burner motor is cycling on/off very quickly before actually firing?
 
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Old 02-14-20, 07:06 AM
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No, actually it's not starting. It's like I hear a click and hum that both pretty much occur at the same time, the motor doesn't run, the air is not blowing, the oil is not flowing. It really sounds like an electric motor that the rotor is locked and you've put power to it. It sounds like the relay that turns on the burner blower/oil motor clicks in, but the motor doesn't turn and it goes through a few of these click hum cycles and then starts. Sometimes it starts up fine, other times it click-hums a few times other times, less, it click-hums maybe 4 times, stops, click-hums another time or a couple and then starts. It always eventually starts. I don't know if it's the relay to the motor or the motor, how do I tell? I'll get the book out an look up the controller and associated parts.

It just did it now, click-hum 3 times and then the motor started, the fan runs 15 seconds, then the flame starts. Shutting off is not a problem. Flame quits, fan runs 15 seconds, motor shuts down.
 
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Old 02-14-20, 08:03 AM
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I was looking around in the L7224C Honeywell Intelligent oil burner control and pulled a few wires around. The white wire from the main AC was a bit loose and pulled off the connection. So I turned off the power and reconnected the thing. It hasn't started up again yet, but I get the StA-1 flashing in the unit. I figure it's got to be the burner control box or the motor on the blower/oil pump, or a loose wire. HD has the control unit for $155, haven't checked on the motor yet. Beckett 21805E motor. Either one or even both are probably cheaper than a service call.
 
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Old 02-14-20, 08:58 AM
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It just started and ran fine. Probably just keeping the temp up in the boiler. I don't think anything was calling for heat. I can go into the boiler room and I have LEDs on each zone so I can see if the theremo's are calling for heat.
 
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Old 02-14-20, 10:46 AM
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Most likely your problem was the loose neutral. Let it go for now & see what happens. I couldn't find anything about a display of StA-1 in any of the literature.
 
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Old 02-14-20, 11:04 AM
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StA-1 is normal, I think it just means standby, that's what it's always done, when it runs I think it says StA-8.
But no, that loose wire didn't do it. I just heard it click and hum 2 or 3 times before it started. The motor is about $60. I could replace that first and if that doesn't do it, replace the L7724C. I suppose it could be a bad motor or sticky/high resistance relay. Probably wouldn't hurt to have a spare of either.
 
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Old 02-14-20, 11:57 AM
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Before spending money you may not need to, check ALL of the wire connections. Depending upon which burner control you have, $155 sounds really high. Here is the control I think you have. https://www.supplyhouse.com/Beckett-...sec-Post-Purge
 
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Old 02-14-20, 12:17 PM
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What you can try since you seem comfortable with electricity is to remove the burner motor wires from B1 & B2 and run them from an external power source. It is a 120V circuit to see if the motor does the same thing.

My guess would be be the starting winding on the motor is going and it's having a hard time starting. The other thing is if you have a meter and know how to use it when you hear the click see if you have 120V to B1 & B2 on your control. If you get voltage there and you hear the humming it's not the control.

Hope this helps a little.
 
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Old 02-14-20, 12:56 PM
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Well, I ordered a motor. It was only $70 for a new one. Yes, I'm comfortable with servicing. Actually I have a Fluke 189 recording meter. I could hook it up to the burner ac terminals and record what it's doing, but I'd have to get set up with some D cells for the battery, I have the pack, I'll have to get batteries.

Getting it to do it's strange thing on command is a bit problematical unless I just want to sit there for a long time. I'll work on getting the Fluke going.

That 7505 is the controller on top of the burner. Not sure which one controls the motor, the aquastat control or the 7505. Probably both to some degree.
 
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Old 02-14-20, 01:28 PM
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Not sure what a 7505 is but I'm suspecting it's your transformer which delivers the spark to ignite the oil from the nozzle to create the fire.

Your motor is controled by the B1 & B2 terminals in the aquastat which are powered either on a call for heat or hot water if you get your DHW from your boiler or an indirect water heater which is just another zone off the boiler but uses the boiler controls just as the heat does.

If it's easier just plug the motor wires into an extension cord and see how the motor reacts with the external source.
 
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Old 02-14-20, 01:41 PM
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Yeah, if the motor acted like hummm all the time I would instantly try just the motor connection, but most of the time everything runs just fine. I did go through the aquastat box (with the power off) and loosened all the AC terminals and tightened them back up. Everything looks clean in there though. Then I took the 7505 off (it controls the igniter and the burner motor too I think, pulled off all those push on connectors one at a time and reset them back in their place.

StA 1 is standby, StA 8 is run, there are also a lot of error codes for the aquastat control, the 7505 also has err messages, but I've never seen any. There are a yellow and red led that go on, one for the flame and the other for the pump/prime. But in general everything usually runs normally, I guess I'll just have to take a book in there and wait.

Trying to mess with the Fluke is a nightmare unless I want to hook it up to a laptop in recording mode and take it in there. It does have an internal 'event' recorder, but reading and figuring that out would take me days.
 
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Old 02-14-20, 04:20 PM
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You are right, I misread the number you posted the first time. That 7505 is your oil burner primary control and it does power the motor.
 
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Old 02-14-20, 05:55 PM
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Well, so far after I've messed with the connections, I haven't heard it do the hum thing, but I've not been down where I can hear it all the time. Either it's quit or I just haven't heard it. Time will tell. It's probably because I spent the $70 for the new motor. I scared it into submission. I hope.

The power (AC) for the motor goes through the aquastat and then to the primary oil control (the 7505). So I'm assuming the 7224 is the initial motor control (if it will go on or off) but the 7505 is the final motor control (when it is supposed to run and sets the preburn and postburn) Only the red light that says flame is on when the motor is running. I've only seen the other light go on when initially powered up, self check I assume.

On my old Burnhan, I did replace the aquastat once. The relay failed. This is my second boiler, the first one died the coldest day of the year in Jan 2012. I think I replaced a few blower/oil pump motors too.
 
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Old 02-14-20, 06:39 PM
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DogTo, Your description of the sequence of operation is correct. Upon a call for increased boiler temp, the 7224 sends 120 vac to the 7505 which in turn sends 120 vac to the motor, ignition, & after the 15 seconds to the fuel solenoid.
 
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Old 02-14-20, 07:40 PM
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So far at 1030pm EST I haven't heard it do the hum thing again. Maybe it was a bad connection, but time will tell. It was pretty consistent before, even if erratic. Bed time.
 
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Old 02-15-20, 07:40 AM
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DogTo: Then I took the 7505 off (it controls the igniter and the burner motor too I think, pulled off all those push on connectors one at a time and reset them back in their place.
The female spade lug connectors used to connect to 7505 may be failing to grip male spade tightly. Often female grip loosens and is too easy to push on to male spade. Tighten up female “C” gently with needle nose pliers. Close "C" gently at wire end of female, not open end

https://www.google.com/search?q=spad...hrome&ie=UTF-8
 
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Old 02-15-20, 07:50 AM
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I did tighten up a few of the spade lugs like you mentioned doug, so far I've only heard it do the hum thing once and that was early this morning, but it only did it one hum and started up right away. I may go in and revisit all the connections. I've still got the option of taking the Fluke 189 in there with a laptop and running a current test over time on the motor. Need a base line first.

I originally thought it was the B&G motor that was locked up from the dirty impeller, but nothing changed when I installed the Taco.
 
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Old 02-15-20, 10:45 AM
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DogTo: I hear the click hmm maybe 4-5 times in a row and then it pauses, tries again and either starts or click hmm again but usually after the 2nd time it only clicks maybe 1-2 times and starts. It always does start.
Some electric motors have a start winding activated by centrifugal switch contacts. When contacts go bad starting is erratic. Sometimes contacts can be cleaned with file, but often have to be replaced.

https://www.galco.com/buy/WEG-Electr...iABEgIbifD_BwE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_FziYNp4Qs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNWlWzFzHi4
 
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Old 02-15-20, 11:02 AM
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For this type of issue motor current data is of no help. Either the start winding draws current for a few seconds or there is no start, just run winding draw.

The switches on some motors can accessed by just separating the motor cover enough to get file in there.
 
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Old 02-15-20, 03:30 PM
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The Beckett 21805E motor I think is a capacitor start motor. But I'm not sure if it's got contacters inside. I'll see what happens when I get the new motor. I'm still having the issue, but it appears to be lots less than before. Like I said, I think I'll go back in and revisit all the connections in the controllers.
 
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Old 02-15-20, 05:53 PM
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I've found most often bad connectins are on the neutral. Take apart all wire nuts, snip & strip off wire jacket to insure you have enough bare wire to twist together before putting the nuts back on.
 
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Old 02-15-20, 07:25 PM
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Good idea, that's one thing I didn't check were the wire nuts. I'll take it all the way back to the main. I've got a switch by the stairway too. Like I said earlier, today it's been a fair amount better, but I still hear it once in a while. It was pretty regular the other day. I haven't heard it quit after 4 tries and try again at any rate so that's an improvement.

Not long ago we had a guy come in and install a new dishwasher. After he left the thing quit and I quickly found it wasn't getting power. The guy had done a really poor job of installing the duplex outlet for the plug. The old one was hard wired in. I should have called them on it, but he spent a lot of time getting extra parts and stuff and we live a half an hour from the nearest town, so I can't complain about that. Fixed price install luckily. Things just don't seem to be like they used to be. The guy was really pleasant though.
 
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Old 02-17-20, 07:48 PM
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Another data bit. These motors often have internal thermal protector. If motor feels hot that may be the issue. If only room temperature or warm lt may be defective protector.
 
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Old 02-18-20, 08:58 AM
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I haven't heard it do the thing for the last 2 days??? Maybe it's healed itself. That's a rare one. I will go back through all the connections though, which I haven't done yet. Think I'll have time today. The new motor is on the way. In my previous Burnham boiler I think I replaced 2 of those motors in about 25 years. Work on cleaning up that old BnG motor/pump too. I think it worked a lot better than the Taco 007. I should add up the quest tubing I have in the floor and see if I can figure the head which I never did, it just worked.

As a side issue, is there any way to prevent rust/junk in the system, other than not flushing it? We live in the country and the water no matter how much it's filtered, still has a lot of junk in it. I use 2 of those large 4x20 filters from the well, the first one is 10 micron and the second is 1 micron. But there's still junk in the system, like where it sits for a while in the outside hydrants, and in the floor radiant heat. Or should I post another thread? The radiant heat is a combo of copper from the boiler to the quest in the floor and of course the cast iron in the boiler and pumps.
 
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Old 02-18-20, 07:18 PM
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If you are concerned about the boiler water, don't be. It is a closed loop system. In fairly short order the water will become "neutral" neither leaving deposits or eating away at the metal in the system as long as you don't add water.
 
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Old 02-28-20, 06:58 PM
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Today I put the B&G back in the radiant heat zone. Trouble is the motor won't start all the time. But if I put a jumper on the thing with a plug to AC, it starts right up. That tells me that maybe there's still some resistance in the zone relay (aquastat?) somewhere that's preventing full voltage from getting to the motor. It may be the same for the boiler motor, except with the warmer weather we've been having I haven't heard the humming stuff, it just doesn't run as much. I guess I still need to go through the system and see if I can find some high resistance relay or contacts somewhere.

So nothing solved yet.

I'm not concerned about the water, I'm concerned with the crap in it. Everytime I turn on the outside faucets after they've not been used for a while, I get rust colored water out of them to start, but it's probably the junk in the well water. No clue how to keep it from the boiler water.

Later: I've heard the hum-click-hum-click again.
 

Last edited by DogTo; 02-28-20 at 07:32 PM.
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Old 02-29-20, 07:23 AM
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The relay contacts may be bad. The Beckett Genisys 7505 is old generation dumb controller. Take this opportunity to upgrade for less than the cost of a new 7505

For $65 replace with modern controller that has LCD digital displays of live burner status, CAD reading, cycle stage, history and has alarm feature missing on old technology controls. See benefits of new versus old in links below.https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.supplyho...s/R7284Bro.pdf

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKSqkpX4N5E

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Honeywel...ic-Oil-Primary
(Click on Manuals - Install Instructions)

The Carlin 70200S is similar to Honeywell R7284U:

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Carlin-C...38a3ae204175c6
 

Last edited by doughess; 02-29-20 at 07:44 AM.
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Old 02-29-20, 09:26 AM
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Think I just found it. Been procrastinating about checking all the wiring, so after I got the old B&G radiant heat circulator motor back in and it wouldn't start, except if I directly plugged it in the AC, I measured the voltage on the B&G through the relay that operates off the Z contact from the aquastat. Well, when calling for heat/run B&G, I measured 66VAC across the motor, no wonder it wouldn't run. So I went into the panel where all the mains wiring connects to the relays and the aquastat, plus the burner motor, and I found a loose bundle of white wires, there must be about 5 of them together. I sorted that mess out, put a new wire nut on it and now the B&G runs fine off the relay and I'm hoping that too is the issue with the burner motor hum-click. Time will tell, but the wire nut was rusty plus the bundle was pretty loose. When I pulled on the wire nut, it just came off.

And luckily the seal kit for the B&G seems to be holding. I haven't seen a drop of water. I ran the radiant circulator for a couple hours through each zone to purge the little bit of air that I introduced replacing the pump. It was a good thing I watched that video on replacing the seal kit though, I would have never known about which way some of those seals go, it's not in the instructions and it's not obvious.

Maybe It's good for another 30 years, but I'll never know since I'm already 76.

Thanks for that controller info too, but some of those links don't seem to work.
 
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Old 02-29-20, 10:04 AM
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DT,
Good diagnostic job. Good luck,

Thanks for the update.
 
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Old 02-29-20, 11:26 AM
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Sorry, that's not the end of the story. I'm hoping it fixes the burner hum, but I cannot get the B&G to run through the relay/switch from the radiant heat thermo. Here's the rub. If I plug in the B&G directly to an ac outlet, on the same circuit that's powering the furnace and the relay that runs the B&G, it runs fine. I can even turn the polarity over, I'm using a cord with only 2 wires and non polarized plug, so I can plug it in either way, it runs fine and draws 1.7Amps, which is right. But if I take the 2 wires from the relay (same ac circuit) and hook up the B&G, it tries to draw 12A and the voltage drops to 66VAC, all the way back to the relay and further. I've taken all the wires out of those push in connections, I have a cut off switch at the furnace, and one upstairs by the stairs, and wrapped the black wires around the screws instead.

I've measured the ohms from both B&G wires to the motor ground and it's infinity. I measure the ohms of the winding it's about 4-5 ohms. I measure the voltage of the supply wires without it being connected to the motor and the black wire is 120V, the white near 0 (with the thermo calling for heat), it goes off if not.

Everything measures OK, but when I try to hook up the AC from the relay to the motor, it's almost like a dead short. What in the dickens is going on? I had the Taco in it's place until yesterday and it ran fine. I may have to go back to it, but the B&G pumps a lot more head.

Right after I found the loose white wires, it ran fine, but all of a sudden its like the rotor is locked, but runs fine if I plug it straight in with a jumper. Something's trying to tell me something but I'm not getting it. It was working fine before and I haven't changed the wiring, except to get rid of the push in connections and this started before I did that. I was hoping to find a high resistance switch or connection somewhere, but that doesn't appear to be the case. I need a break.
 
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Old 02-29-20, 11:28 AM
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Good job on finding the issue with the neutrals. Hope you had enough wire to get good clean connections.

TIP: When making wire connections using a wire nut, hold the nut & tug on each wire to make sure they are all tight.
 
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Old 02-29-20, 11:50 AM
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Try moving the "C2" wire to terminal "L2" There's an internal connection between the L2 & C2 termials which may be bad. Might help, might not, but easy to try.
 
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Old 02-29-20, 12:56 PM
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I got fed up and put the Taco back in it. It's running fine. At least I have heat in my room. That Taco sure runs hot.

L2 & C2? Where is that on the B&G? I didn't see any wire nomenclatures in the B&G. Just a white and black wire which were mostly painted red. I did try switching the neutral and hot to no avail. It's almost like the B&G has a short internally when it's running. I wonder if it would show up if I'd connected the ground wire, It never was connected, at least at the motor. It looks like there's a ground screw in the B&G if I take the cover off.

Any way to check out this B&G? I could get a 3 wire cord and ground it properly and see if it still ran or shorted. When I plug it in with just 2 wires, hot and neutral, either way, it runs fine.

Anyhow, I blew the FL11 fuse in my Fluke. That thing is $35. I need a glass of wine. Rather have some Jameson's but I don't keep it around any more.

Any hints on a better pump than the Taco. I saw the impeller when I pulled the motor off to turn it over, it's half the size of the B&G pump. Someone mentioned a Grundfos I think. I've probably got 5-800 feet of 1/2" quest in the floor here. Luckily we don't have chlorinated water, but the quest is still a bit brittle, but I've never had a problem with it.
 
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Old 02-29-20, 01:39 PM
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DT,
The motor on the Taco actually has your heating water runnimg through it which is probably why it feels hot. Whatever the temp of the water is that you are running is the temp going through the canister of the pump. It is called a wet rotor pump unlike the B&G where the motor is seperate.

Grundfoss is a good pump but with either Taco or Grundfoss you still need a pump with enough head to match your needs. The 007 is just your basic residential pump that can handle most jobs but they make them with higher head.

i believe the C2 and B2 that was mentioned is on the aquastat. You can put your C2 wire from the circ and put itb on the B2 term. in the aquastat. It's just a comon term and you can put your circ wire on B2 instead of C2 to see if you have a bad terminal but if your 007 is working then that doesn't sound like the problem. It sounds like you have a bad motor on your B&G.
 
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Old 02-29-20, 02:52 PM
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I noticed the Taco had a big o-ring around the motor flange when I moved the AC line around and it looked like the impeller was in with the motor, but I didn't look really carefully. But it got hot right away when the return water was still pretty cool.

The Taco/B&G radiant heat pump is controlled by a separate zone off the Z terminal from the aquastat, so I don't loose domestic HW heat. The Z terminal as I remember only runs when the boiler is up to x temp. I have a separate control/thermo to switch the 120VAC for that pump.

Yeah, I'm kind of thinking something went wrong with the B&G. the B&G draws 1.7A where the Taco draws .7, that tells you something. If I get serious I'll do a head study to see what I really need, but right now all I use the pump for is one room, maybe 2-300' of 1/2" quest and the Taco does work, if slowly. It's almost spring anyhow, things will start warming up pretty quick in March.

Anyhow I think things have settled down with finding that loose bundle of white wires. Thanks for the help guys.
 
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Old 03-01-20, 05:36 AM
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L2, B2, & C2 are all terminals on the aquastat. They are all neutrals.
The O-ring on the Taco, seals the motor from the water side.
Your amp readings sound normal.
 
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Old 03-01-20, 06:23 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2015
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Yeah, but the 12A when I install the B&G with the relay circuit is not right. I still haven't figured out what's going on there.

Also this morning, just a few minutes ago, I hear the hmmm-click again about 4 times before the burner starts. It may be time for that new controller for the 7505. $65 is not much. I haven't tried the new motor or checked the cap. I guess I'd have to pull off the motor or at least unwire it to check that.

And here I thought I was done with it for a while. Ugh.
 
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