1996 Burnham furnace - rapidly clicking relay


  #1  
Old 10-25-20, 12:37 PM
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1996 Burnham furnace - rapidly clicking relay

1996 Burnham - Rapidly Clicking Relay problem

My Burnham natural gas hot water furnace has been going strong for many years and still heats very well.
Recently it developed a problem with the relay on the control (Honeywell R8285D) clicking rapidly when the unit is shutting off after heat cycle.
The control board was replaced but no change.
Description of sequence:
I switch on the heat with one of the 2 thermostats.
The furnace would come on and work as intended.
The damper opens, the circulation pump turns on, the burner ignites. Then when the cycle ends the burner turns off, then the circulation pump turns off and then suddenly the relay would start to rapidly switch with a loud clicking noise for a few seconds.
I recorded the noise here:
https://youtu.be/aiUDSqK97sk
Additional observation is that it does not always do it. The furnace would run for hours without it during the day. It seems worse on cold mornings and colder days like today and is worse when the heat comes on in the morning.
This has been going on since the heating season recently started here in the Northeast.
It is a 2 zone system with electronic Honeywell programmable thermostats.
Any ideas what is causing it and what a possible fix it? Any help is much appreciated.
P.S. I already had a HVAC contractor check it out but despite me paying $137 for the call and the diagnostic he had nothing to offer. Could not fix it and left.
 

Last edited by Mick TheBrick; 10-25-20 at 12:47 PM. Reason: Update
  #2  
Old 10-25-20, 01:08 PM
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Welcome to the forums.

You have a natural gas fired hot water boiler. A furnace is hot air.
You paid the tech $137 dollars and he could not fix it and left.

In your video you are showing the fan center. Are you 100% sure it is that relay that is clicking ?
If yes..... you have a thermostat problem.
What is the stat you're using ?
 
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Old 10-25-20, 01:57 PM
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Boiler it is - thanks for that.
True that with the tech. $137 for nothing.

Yes, 90% sure it is that relay that is clicking. At least I can feel it clicking when I lay my finger on it during the described clicking. Also, it is pretty hot (to the touch).
If it is the thermostat then I can say that it must be the upstairs thermostat since the clicking happened when the downstairs was turned off (or way down).
The upstairs stat is a Honeywell TH8320U. Not sure how old but certainly 5+ years possibly 10 years.
This is the model:
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Honeywel...500D/100295793.
Is there a way I can test that?
Thx.
Mick
 
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Old 10-25-20, 03:41 PM
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Since you have two thermostats you must have zone valves or circulator pumps.
We'd need to know how they connect to the boiler.
 
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Old 10-25-20, 06:23 PM
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Yup, 2 zone valves, one circulator pump.
How they connect? Not sure how to describe that.
 
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Old 10-25-20, 06:27 PM
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Replaced the 2nd thermostat with a new Honeywell T9 that I still had. Did not help. Still the same loud clicking noise.
 
  #7  
Old 10-26-20, 04:40 AM
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Hi, if it still does it with a new Stat then go to the zone valve, post a pic of the zone valve, the Stat controls the valve and there should be an end switch on the valve that starts the boiler.
Geo🇺🇸
 
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Old 10-26-20, 07:51 AM
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So the relay has no issue engaging but will, majority of the time, struggle to disengage? Are things still running as it clicks or is the switch definitely open (ie no power out of the relay) when it continues to click? Try to find a pattern for when it clicks vs doesn't; is it zone specific? If it is zone specific, maybe the end switch on a ZV is malfunctioning. Is it temperature specific (I would focus on boiler temp, not ambient)? Is it equipment running specific (ie is the boiler firing or not firing when it happens)? Have any changes happened to the system since this started? Service or part swaps?

So you have a boiler with a dual zone heating system separated by zone valves. Are your heat zones radiant or hydroair? I think its a bit odd that you have a fan relay on your boiler but I guess a relay is a relay. I am curious as to how your controls are set up. Can you provide more details about the zone valves and the boiler controller (where you set temperature and what turns on your circulator)?

Two thoughts come to mind that maybe could cause this.

First thought is maybe the relay is sticking and/or failing. Inspect the mechanical part of the relay that actually moves to engage the circuit. DO NOT TOUCH IF YOU ARE NOT COMFORTABLE WITH ELCTRIC CIRCUITS; THERE IS A RISK OF SHOCK. With power off, manually move the relay back and forth to feel how well it moves. Check if its catching at all. Depending on the relay, this may not be accessible, which in that case, I would consider replacing the relay before spending $XXX on another service call. Although, I would be surprised if the tech didn't try all of this already.

Second is a loose wire somewhere that isn't quite making clean contact. This is unlikely since it engages fine but either way, I would trace through all the wires. As Geochurch suggested, I would focus on everything after the zone valve, as the zone valves are typically responsible for engaging the boiler (and circulator) after a call for heat from your stat.

Lastly, you could also place a voltmeter on the signal side of the relay to see if you get voltage spikes as the zone valve is disengaging. Relays are so simple that it could only be a couple of things. The relay is sticking as its trying to open (break signal at end of call). Or its getting voltage spikes as the call for heat is ending that causes the valve to quickly open and close again. I never heard of the latter happening but it would explain the clicking. Voltmeter should help you determine that.

Some model numbers and photos of the system will be helpful in trying to diagnose further.
 
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Old 10-26-20, 05:34 PM
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You are right, the relay engages no problem only when it it disengages does the clicking occur. and that not always.
Trust me I spent significant time in from of that boiler to observe and find a pattern. I do just not have enough knowledge about the system as a whole to understand what the reason might be. I am a mechanical engineer by trade with good background in electronics but never dealt with HVAC systems.

The heat zones are radiant. The relay is just a middle of the road Honeywell R8222 all purpose relay. The relay cannot be activated manually but it is brand new. So the is the whole HW R8285D Control Center.

I traced all the wires as far as they are accessible. Actually found 2 that were questionable. First thought “That was easy” however that did not solve it either.

Hadn’t done the voltmeter yet to check the signals where I would have to catch it when it actually does it. Unfortunately I am very busy at work right now and can only spend so much time in front of the boiler.

i am attaching photos that will hopefully provide more information.

What I am wondering is: What actually controls the relay to open (switch off)at the end of each cycle ??? That is kind of the final thing that happens in a cycle after the burner goes off, the vent damper closes, the circulator pump goes off, the zone valve closes (did I forget anything)?













 

Last edited by Mick TheBrick; 10-26-20 at 05:58 PM.
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Old 10-30-20, 08:15 AM
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I can't remember if I asked it above, but does the problem happen with both zones? Or just one?

So I can't entirely follow the wiring in all your pictures but this is in general how it should work. You have terminals 1-2-3 on your zone valve. 2 is a common terminal from your transformer (likely the stand alone transformer in pic 4) The hot side of that transformer goes to your thermostat "R". When heat is called at the stat, the R-W circuit is made (at the stat). This sent voltage back to terminal 1 on the zone valve. The zone valve charges and closes the 1-2 terminal circuit. This leads to a time delay closing of the end-switch terminals 2-3. This end-switch is what goes to your boiler and says turn on circ and fire if temp is low (the time delay allows the valve to fully open before engaging any pumps). So, if I am folllowing everything correctly, the 2-3 terminals on both zone valves should wire back to the honeywell fan relay in question. The honeywell fan relay has both a transformer and a relay; the transformer is what makes the end switch on the zone valves hot. Thus, when end switch (2-3) closes on the zone valve, 24V from the honeywell transformer now makes it to the relay on the honeywell, which closes and engages your circ/burner/limit controls.

Since the honeywell relay sticks on opening, I am wondering if the zone valve (2-3) end switch is sticking a little. TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION, once heat is satisfied, the thermostat opens R-W, which breaks continuity at the zone valves 1-2. Once that is broke, the end switch at 2-3 on the zone valve begins to open, breaking continuity to the boiler (the honeywell relay). The valves have manual levers you can try to move and reset them. I would only think the end-switch is the problem if your issue is isolated to one zone valve. if it happens on both, then I would think its the relay thats malfunctioning.
 
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Old 10-30-20, 11:15 AM
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You have a flue damper so that means things need to work in certain order.
The zone valve end switches activate the fan relay.
When that relay closes it sends power thru the flue damper.
 
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Old 11-02-20, 04:26 PM
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Okay. Thanks a lot for the hints.
Problem is solved.
Finally had more time over the weekend and could identify that it was only in one zone that it happened.
I.e. the one zone valve was the culprit. Replaced the valve and everything runs great again.
Thanks again especially to pbct2019 and PJmax for spending the time to read my post and giving the right hints.
Cheers,
Mick
 
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Old 11-03-20, 06:55 AM
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Glad to hear we were able to help. I bought my first house back in 2018 and the HVAC was a mess. The members of this forum were a great resource for me to learn my system and eventually rewire the whole system. I figure its my time to also give back a bit. ;-)

Best of luck.
 
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Old 01-25-21, 04:52 PM
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Same exact problem - how did you resolve?

Mick,

I wanted to ask exactly which part you had to replace? I am having the same exact problem but I only have 1 zone. I have already replaced the relay thinking that was it, but it sounds like it has to do with the zone relay. I have attached a pic, with the part I think you were referring to. Can you help me out?
 
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Old 01-25-21, 05:03 PM
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Welcome to the forums Dak.

Different problems. Your picture is a smart gas valve. Micks problem was a zone valve.
What is the problem your are having ?
 
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Old 01-25-21, 07:58 PM
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Bad switch contacts, like those in aquastat just above pbct2019 relay, are common cause of intermittent problems. When something is intermittent test often fail to find it.

For that issue replacement is both a diagnostic step and likely fix.
 
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Old 02-13-21, 01:05 PM
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Pjmax

Thanks man, glad to be a part of this group. Really hoping you guys can help me figure this out. Last post I just assumed that’s what you guys were referring to, but obviously it wasn’t.

I swapped out my relay at first too thinking that would solve it, yet I am having the same clicking problem. However, recently the boiler has been firing up majority of the time but the clicking noise is non-stop. The first time I ever had any issues, it started with the clicking noise, fired the boiler and then shut off 10-30 seconds later. That still happens at times, but fortunately it has been firing and staying lit lately but the clicking noise is non-stop and I know something is wrong. I will add more pictures of my unit and maybe you guys can help? Sounds like I have the same issue as MACK, but my system is a single zoned unit. I would appreciate any guidance. Thanks a lot!







 
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Old 04-10-21, 05:31 AM
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Any help?!

Can anyone help me solve this? All my furnace does is click repeatedly. Fires the burners and shuts off. Non stop.
 
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Old 04-10-21, 03:53 PM
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D,
What do you have for t-stats. Have you tried bypassing the stats and jumping the 2 wires together and see if that eliminates your problem. If this works I will explain why. Do you have a pic of your stats.
 
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Old 04-12-21, 02:59 AM
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T-stat

I have an ecobee lite 3. When I first wired this up I didn’t have any issues at all. Roughly a month later the clicking began. Not sure what you mean about putting the wires together? I only have 2 wires running to the boiler, red and white.
 
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Old 04-12-21, 08:33 AM
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how did you wire the ecobee? can you upload pictures showing where the wires go to at your furnace?

For the ecobee to function properly it needs atleast three wires; two wires for triggering a heat call and a third wire to supply continuous power to the ecobee.

My guess is that you do not have it wired properly or, you do but you are relying on a transformer not capable of powering the thermostat along with all your other equipment. If the latter is true, banging noises are possible because your equipment is trying engage during a heat call but doesn't have enough power to start various components. Everything might have worked fine for a short while but, continuously overloading your transformer will eventually decrease output and break it, potentially creating the issues you see now.

you can switch back to your old stat (or short the two thermostat wires responsible for the heat call, as Spott suggested) and see if everything works okay. If it does, it means your transformer isn't rated high enough for everything. IF it doesnt solve the problem, it might mean the transformer is now shot and needs to be replaced or something else is happening.

my gut says you are using a transformer that wasn't design to power a smart stat along with all the other equipment. If true, the easy solution is to upgrade the transformer (they aren't expensive) or power the ecobee off of a separate transformer you install (see ecobees wiring diagrams).
 
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Old 04-12-21, 09:57 AM
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D,
https://www.ecobee.com/installing-your-ecobee3-lite/

This sight might help you fix your problem. Click on compatability and follow the instructions.
 
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Old 04-19-21, 02:55 AM
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Re

Spot,

I set up my thermostat wiring using through eco-bee. The wiring is 100% accurate and works every time I call for heat. The issue seams to be the same one that the original guy posted about. My furnace gets the fall for heat and then a bunch of clicking happens and it sounds like the relay is bad. But the guys above said that it’s more than likely a valve sticking?! No clue at this point.
 
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Old 04-19-21, 10:52 AM
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D,
At this point as I posted if you go to the sight I posted and click on Compatibility Check and check the boxes for the wiring you have to see if what you are controling is compatable with your stat. If not there is a number to call for help.

What I can tell you is if you have Taco zone valves it takes .9 amps to operate them properly. They require the higheat amperage of any zone valve and because of that they are not compatable with all stats. The old Honeywell round mercury stat had an adjustable amperage setting and they worked fine but then they went to the newer ones and they worked fine except with Taco and they finally solved that problem by including a resister that had to be used. Unfortunately people installing these never read the instructions and threw it away with the box and Honeywell got a bad rap instead of the installer.

What will happen if the Taco doesn't get the proper amperage it will act erradically, and finally burning out. It's like putting 60V to a 120V light bulb or a brown out. At times it will try to open on a call for heat but it doesn't have the power so to speak to open and while attempting to make the end switch which turns on your boiler through a relay, that relay clicks trying to open. This is only with Taco to my knowledge because of their high draw.

If you have Taco, call the number on the sight and they must have something to get around that. I believe Honeywell solved it with a 1500ohm resister.
 
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Old 04-19-21, 08:01 PM
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Did jumping out the two thermostat wires resolve the problem by eliminating the clicking?
The relay you replaced was it just the relay or both the transformer relay? If both, did you use a transformer relay with a 50VA transformer?
Should have been an R8285D-5001, if just the relay was it a R8222U1006?

 
 

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