Taco 007-F5 noise

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  #1  
Old 10-26-20, 06:28 PM
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Taco 007-F5 noise

I did search through other threads but didn't find the answer. The 007-F5 on my boiler was installed around 8 years ago and had been quietly doing the job. Over the past several months I began noticing a soft sounding rattle when just the circulator is running (you can't hear it over the burner when running). This is when in the same room as boiler. If upstairs is quiet, you can hear the faint rattle following up the pipes.

It's definitely coming from the circultator. If I put my hand on its electrical connection box, I can feel the vibrations in sync with the rattle. It's not loud enough to be annoying; I'm just worried it might be a sign of impending doom. Should I be preemptive and replace it before the cold kicks in?
 
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  #2  
Old 10-26-20, 06:31 PM
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Is there a flow-check valve directly above the circulator? That's usually where the rattling comes from.
 
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Old 10-28-20, 06:11 PM
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No flow check valve above circulator. Only a water shut off valve a few inches above. I'm 100% certain the noise is coming from the Taco.
 
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Old 10-28-20, 07:03 PM
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There may be a flow check in that pump. You didn't post the complete model number.
Taco 007-F5 circulator
 
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Old 10-29-20, 08:08 AM
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I think 007-F5 is all that was on the label. Ill double check.
 
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Old 10-29-20, 12:53 PM
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M,
This is the number you would have on the pump if it included a flocheck. If not your impellar might be going bad or something may be stuck inside.. Whatever it is it's not going to improve with age. At the very least I think it's worth taking it out and checking it before winter and it becomes an emergency or at least have a spare ready if you are sure that's where the noise is coming from.

The number is in the sku.
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Taco-007...5-HP-3647000-p
 
  #7  
Old 10-29-20, 03:57 PM
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The pump has only one moving part - the impeller cartridge. If you are handy and have tools, you can replace the cartridge.- it is good for a DIYer to have a spare on hand. Unless there are isolation valves on each side of the pump, you would probably need to drain the boiler down below the elevation of the pump, and bleed air in the system after the pump is replaced. If this all sounds a little above your skill level, call a professional tech whose references you've checked.
 
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Old 10-29-20, 06:09 PM
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Thanks for the tips guys. I did install this one so hopefully I can handle just the cartridge. I want to be sure I get the right cartridge though. I've attached a few photos showing the system and the label on the pump. I think this is a pretty typical set up. Would you expect it needs a check valve?






 

Last edited by PJmax; 10-30-20 at 11:44 AM. Reason: resized/reoriented pics
  #9  
Old 10-30-20, 04:32 AM
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I'm beginning to wonder about another aspect of this circulator. I assume it is installed on the water return side of the boiler. On the boiler supply side, the air scoop/vent, expansion tank and then zone valves (4 zones).. The zone returns collect into a manifold and then to a single return pipe which has a shut off valve (yellow handle) where I would expect it to be. Ok, so if all this is correct, the arrow on the circ pump should be pointing down for flow direction, right? But it isn't; it's pointing up.... Am I missing something here? Apparently the systems still works (all 4 zones) and produces DHW in adequate amounts (I have a separate circulator for the hot water storage tank acting as it's own zone). Is it surprising the system would work ok with the circ pump backwards?
 
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Old 10-30-20, 07:38 AM
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I can't see the flow directional arrow, but based on the location of the pump volute, it is pumping upward. The pump will work that way, but flow through the boiler will be backwards - not good. Since you have two circulator pumps in the system, a conventional check valve may be required depending upon the piping arrangements. You may likely need a lift-check valve (flo-control valve) to prevent ghost flow when there is no call for heat. What is your system pressure - the noise might be cavitation?

Mike, who was the joker that installed that pump backwards?
 
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Old 10-30-20, 10:12 AM
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Yes that joker was me I guess it's a good thing these systems are so forgiving of rookie mistakes. I do have a check valve in there to keep boiler water out of DHW. Since a whole pump doesn't cost much more than the cartridge, I'm thinking to just go ahead and get a new Taco 007-F5 but with the built in check valve (and install so it pumps down!). I assume ghost flow is hot water rising with the pump off and is something you wouldn't want in the summer.



 

Last edited by PJmax; 10-30-20 at 11:47 AM. Reason: reoriented pictures
  #12  
Old 10-30-20, 11:37 AM
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Yeah, Mike, I knew is was you!

The nice thing about this DIY forum is that everybody has screwed up. Replacing the pump might be a good way to go. You might hang on to the present pump as an emergency spare? Let us know how it all turns out, particularly about the noise.
 
  #13  
Old 10-30-20, 01:03 PM
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M,
I'm looking at where your extrol tank is and if you can get a better pic of that area it looks like you have a flocheck right after that airscoop. With the pump in backwards water should not even be getting by that flocheck unless you unscrewed that thumbscrew all the way up to allow the water to flow by. That clicking you hear might be that flocheck clicking. Another point here is that zone valves are directional and only allow the water to go one way so how is your water even circulating backwards.

Could you post pics of the supply piping of the airscoop and flocheck and the zone valves. Although you get your water from your tankless coil it is going into an aquabooster or storage tank and that circ on top is not for heat but is pumping domestic water from tank back to coil to get reheated.

If your flocheck is open then you may be able to solve your problem by just turning the pump around and closing the thumbscrew on the flocheck and will not have to buy anything new.

Just a couple of observations.
 
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Old 10-30-20, 01:42 PM
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Thank you Spott and Gilmorrie for taking a close look at this. You are right about the flochek valve after the expansion tank. I never touched it though and it appears the thumb screw is partly open with around 1/8" of thread showing. I didn't know zone valves would only flow one way. Or can they flow somewhat in the wrong direction if water is pumped that way? The DHW is not technically a zone; more of an indirect water heater I guess. It allows the not-too-great tankless coil enough time to heat up 40 gallons. It used have a set up with a tempering valve with no tank and I'd get hot water for a minute or so...

Also, the Extrol tank is at least 20 years old. Would you recommend replacing it while system is drained as preemptive maintenance?
​​​​​​​






 

Last edited by PJmax; 10-30-20 at 02:06 PM. Reason: cropped/resized/enhanced pics
  #15  
Old 10-30-20, 02:33 PM
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M,
Your thumbscrew being partially open may be letting water through. You can loosen the nut and turn the screw all the way down so it will operate properly but another thing is your ZV's which are directional, you will see the arrow on the body. The water must be going in the direction of the arrow. If you open the manual lever the water will flow by gravity when you run the boiler for hot water.

On another point, flochecks are not needed with zone valves since zone valves are positive shutoffs when they are not calling for heat. You only need flochecks if you zone with pumps so I would not even fool with that flocheck because sometimes when you play with the nut or screw it starts to leak and at this point since we now know you have zone valves the flocheck is not serving any purpose. Even if it was manually open the water could not flow backwards through the zone valves but the flapper in the FC could still be causing the clicking you are hearing.

If you have valves on both sides of the pump you can close them and turn up the stat for a very short time to see if you still get the click. Not to long because you will cause cavitation. You would know almost immediately.

By the way zone valves will not let water flow backwards at all if installed backwards. If you look at one uninstalled you will see why.

Again, my first suggestion would be to just turn the pump around.

You can change your extrol if it makes you feel more comfortable but if you do I would add a shutoff between the new tank and the scoop for ease of maintainence in the future so no draining or bleeding would be necessary.
 
  #16  
Old 10-30-20, 03:17 PM
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A system with with zone valves does not need a flow check valve. Just set it to manual open.

Make depressurizing system easier by installing 1/2 ball valve on expansion tank nipple. Then to depressurize, shut off fresh water feed, close ball valve and drain a small amount of water.

Mark ball valve to Keep Open for normal operation
 
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Old 10-30-20, 05:10 PM
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In resonse to post 16 and not to be reparticous with post 15 again I would not open flocheck to manual position as suggested in #16. T he reason being that in case shutoff valves were not installed on the supply line after the zone valves, since the flocheck is directional when the thumbscrew is down it acts as a shutoff if the zone valve bodies must be changed and act as a shutoff valve so you don't have to drain the whole zone as long as you have a shutoff on the return which you should have in order to bleed the zone. As far as leaving the valve open between the tank and the scoop, that is just common sense and when closing for tank repair or replacement you can shut the main cold water valve off if you feel more comfortable but there is no need if you have the other one between the the tank and the scoop.
 
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Old 10-30-20, 05:12 PM
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Thanks Spott, adding a valve is a great idea. I'm 100% sure the noise is coming from the circulator as I used a mechanic's stethoscope to pinpoint it and you can feel the vibrations with your fingers (on the electrical box). It started making the noise maybe 6 months ago. Up till then it was whisper quiet. I only have the valve with the yellow handle above the pump which will stop the return line from draining but nothing below it to prevent boiler from draining. This will drain the pipe up to the zone valves but closing the flochek manually will help some. It looks like I should add a valve below the pump for any future work (should this be a gate valve?). It would be easy to add the valve between the scoop and tank, so I'll be sure and do that too.
 
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Old 10-30-20, 05:33 PM
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What you can do is shut the power off obviously and that would make sure all your zone valves were closed in case your flocheck isn't completely closed and then shut your yellow valve off on your return line and your red valve off on your cold water supply line and then drain water from the bottom of the boiler and you may only get about a quart of water. If you pull a vacuum as sometime happen uou can open your relief valve with a buckett underneath of course to break the vacuum and help with draining the boiler.

It is always good to put valves on both sides of the pump pump if you have black iron pipe as you do they make flanges with valves already connected. Taco even maked one with a screw right in it and you may not have to change your piping at all.

If done as described above with what you have now you may not even have to bleed. Before you open your yellow return valve or zone valves when filling open your relief valve and fill slowly and you will get air and water out of it. At that point close the lever and you should be good be go as long as your relief valve doesn't leak but if it does then it's time to change it anyway.

https://www.supplyhouse.com/sh/control/search/~SEARCH_STRING=taco%20isolation%20flanges%20with%20valves?searchText=taco+isolation+flanges+with+valves
 
  #20  
Old 10-31-20, 08:33 AM
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I've been wracking my addled brain about the pump noise. Just having the pump backwards shouldn't cause the pump to start making noise - and I gather that the pump initially operated quietly for quite some time while it was installed backwards. So, I hatched up a theory. Possibly the bottom of the boiler accumulated sediment and debris, which would be taken into the pump's suction. Eventually, it got bad enough to foul the pump's impeller and start making noise. When you get that old pump off, check to see if the the impeller is clogged with debris. I would be curious to know what you find. You will be able to inspect the impeller by just removing the four cap screws holding the motor to the pump volute, and sliding off the motor.
 
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Old 10-31-20, 10:56 AM
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I ordered a new pump and will be sure to post back with my findings. Your theory seems plausible. In addition, the boiler is 45 years old and could well have some rusty debris in there.
 
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Old 11-06-20, 06:38 PM
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Success! Mostly... I was able to install the new expansion tank and Taco circulator with check valve (and flow in the right direction). I decided not to add a valve below the pump on the return line because I was a bit afraid to try and wrestle the down pipe out of the old boiler and risk damage. I did use the Flochek valve to limit how much of the supply side would drain. The only hiccup I had was trying to shut off the potable water ball valve (which didn't really need to be shut off, I then realized) and it didn't cooperate. I used more force and when I thought it was turning, it was actually shearing the stem off..... At least it isn't leaking. I guess you really do need to exercise these valves once in a while. The old expansion tank had about 6 psi in it (and I've never checked it in 20 years), so I guess it was still good. Oh, and the pump noise is gone.

As far as replacing the ball valve, it looks like it may be tricky since there isn't much flexibility in the line. Is there a preferred way to go about this? Do you de-solder it or cut the pipe above and below and splice in a new piece with the valve? Also, is there any way to get the photos to rotate 90 or do you just have to take them in landscape orientation?





 

Last edited by PJmax; 11-06-20 at 08:53 PM. Reason: reoriented pictures
  #23  
Old 11-07-20, 07:48 AM
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I would cut the valve out (with a tubing cutter) and use two copper couplings and two nipples to solder in a new valve. Piece of cake.
 
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Old 11-08-20, 04:43 PM
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Thanks Gil. I think I can enough flex the slip things together. I guess I could also make a future valve change easier if installed like the pressure regulator...
 
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