Zone Valve Water Hammering in Baseboards


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Old 01-24-21, 06:59 PM
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Zone Valve Water Hammering in Baseboards

I can't sleep because the baseboards are knocking hard from what I think is water hammering.

Every time my thermostat clicks/turns off my pipes and baseboards bang/rattle hard and loud. This is only happening on the 2nd floor of my home. The ground level zones are fine. The furnace is 37yrs old. It's Weil Mclain. 4 zone gas/double 50gallon water heaters.

Last winter I changed a leaky zone valve, which was my 2nd floor kitchen zone to a Caleffi zone valve. I noticed the water hammer after that install.

This week my other 2nd floor/bedrooms zone valve was leaking. I had that replaced with Honeywell. I also replaced my 2 ground floor zone valves to Honeywell.

I also rewired everything to a Taco panel.

Plumbers coming tommorow to bleed the 2 2nd floor zones. This is the third time their bleeding it. I don't think it's air in the pipes do you? How do I fix this. I don't want my pipes to get loose or burst.

I want to add that I tapped on the expansion tank and shook it, it seemed empty. The other day, I released air from the top of it and water came out after the air did. Then I closed it. But tonight when I checked the tank seems empty and furnace was running.

The 2 zone for the 2nd floor are on the far right hand side.


Zone valve for 2nd floor kitchen.


Zone for 2nd floor bedrooms.




2 new zone valves on right side. Old white rodgers zone valves left side. Old wiring shown.
 

Last edited by dec0der; 01-24-21 at 07:20 PM.

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01-29-21, 08:21 AM
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2john02458 - You are 100% correct. Honeywell has had this problem over 30 years. Remove one spring so valve does not close so fast. Other fixes is variable speed pump or another type zone valve. Personally I have resolved many of these types of problems without part changes. Honeywell actually had a white paper out probably about 25 years ago on the fix.
 
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Old 01-25-21, 07:25 AM
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I have a Honeywell 3-way zone valve for my 3rd floor bedroom suite. It is located in a closet at the 3rd floor. When the valve closes the pipe does hammer. I Googled that problem and found instructions for removing one of the two springs that cause the valve to close so it closes slower. The pipe still hammers slightly but much less than it did with both springs attached. More like a "bump" than a "bang".
 
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Old 01-25-21, 02:09 PM
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Plumber/Hvac guy just left my home.

He removed the small spring from the honeywell zone valve.

He couldn't adjust the Caleffi zone valve.

He said the problem was the water pressure velocity. Saying the hammering was caused by it.

He also said the pipes in the wall are loose.

The fix was to close the valves a little on the zone valve pipes. Not leaving them fully open this way the pressure is reduced.

The banging is gone now.

I never had banging with my old white rogers zone valves, but they were from 1984. Maybe they didn't fully open after all these years....or they just opened slower.

I do not want to cut sheetrock to secure pipes. It's very expensive. 😡 So unless someone can recommend something, I will have to keep it like this for now.
 
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Old 01-26-21, 07:42 AM
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If you have zone valves you probably have only one circulating pump. Maybe look into a pump that adjusts flow automatically depending on how many zones are open. The might reduce the flow enough to avoid hammer. I think Grundfoss is the leading manufacturer of such pumps. I have not used one but they are mentioned a lot in this forum.
 
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Old 01-26-21, 08:28 AM
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decOder's Water hammer noise is probably due to mix of water and air in lines. Venting air is ongoing problem in most systems. Air bubbles rise to highest points of system, i.e. second floor baseboards.

Venting air at boiler level, even with circulator running does not always remove air at high spots.

Simplest, cheapest way to vent, is installing good auto- vents at high points of zones and forget about manual venting. Have 12 Watts at $8.29 each on 8 zone system. Haven't manually vented in years.

For more info read Submittal Sheet: https://www.supplyhouse.com/Watts-05...Vent-3679000-p

For systems with several zone valves, many problems can be eliminated with modern auto-sensing Grundfos Alpha 2 circulators. Left powered on automatically adjusts to load changes as zone valves open and close. No zone valve end switch wiring necessary

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Grundfos...w-Terminal-Box
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_elAwebxcE

Other circulator companies have not yet developed auto sensing units possibly because profits rise when development is reduced.
 

Last edited by doughess; 01-26-21 at 08:50 AM.
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Old 01-26-21, 10:12 AM
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hammer noise is probably due to mix of water and air in lines
While that may be true in the case of the OP, I can tell you in my experience that it can also occur when there is no air in the pipe. Since the banging has stopped, although the OP did not say so in Post #3 the tech may have bled/vented the line.

I never had banging with my old white rogers zone valves, but they were from 1984. Maybe they didn't fully open after all these years....or they just opened slower.
Hammering is caused when the valve closes quickly. Th old valves probably closed more slowly than the new ones.
 
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Old 01-26-21, 10:55 AM
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That sound, noise or whatever it is called may be due to many things.

In diagnostics a common approach is to do the simple, easy things first.

Because air is on..going, eternal issue, installing auto-air-vents is a no brainer! Then if sound still exists, one possible cause has been eliminated. The auto vents will improve system operation while reducing maintainence.
 

Last edited by doughess; 01-26-21 at 01:10 PM.
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Old 01-27-21, 02:19 PM
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I had a plumber bleed the system 2 times and it was still banging. So I got fed up and called a different plumber/hvac company. They removed the spring in the Honeywell zone valve and couldn't adjust the Caleffi zone valve.

The only way to slow the velocity down to stop the banging was adjust the ball valve on the zones pipes.

See how the zone valve pipes valves are closed slightly. This lowered the pressure and all banging stopped. I still get heat.



I wish the hvac/plumber would of installed taco 570 series zone valves. I hear they take a few minutes to close. I really don't want to spend more money to replace the new Honeywell and Caleffi zone valves, but they close to fast.

What would you do?

I also noticed a small drop of what looked like motor oil on my gas pipe, should I be worried?

I have a natural gas / double water heater system with Weil mclain boiler.

 

Last edited by dec0der; 01-27-21 at 02:35 PM.
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Old 01-27-21, 05:00 PM
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The slow opening & closing of the Taco heat motor zone valve would likely stop the noise but all in all I prefer the Honeywell.

Regarding the 'oil' on the pipe fitting: Unles there is something above that could possibly drip oil, it's probably oil leaching out of the pipe dope & nothing to worry about.
 
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Old 01-28-21, 07:15 AM
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decOder: The other day, I released air from the top of it and water came out after the air did.
If water came out of tank air valve, tank is bad so replace it.

Water velocity as cause of deoder's noise is profesional b... s..

The simple, cheap most effective way to insure venting is with auto-air-vents at high point of each zone. Often they can be installed by replacing existing manual vent valves on some elements. For $8.29 each try it.

For more info read Submittal Sheet: https://www.supplyhouse.com/Watts-05...Vent-3679000-p

Professionals venting at basement boiler level often fails to remove air at high points of zones. That may be their correct, proper way but is wishful thinking.
 
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Old 01-28-21, 01:23 PM
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In your initial post #1 you mentioned you opened your hi-vent on top of the extrol tank and after bleeding it you closed it again.

That air vent is suppose to have the cap loose at all times to constantly vent if needed. If the vents leaks water wif you leave it open it is defective and should be changed. I f changing you might want to put a shutoff between the airscoop and the vent for future maintenence.
 
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Old 01-28-21, 08:06 PM
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decOder's experience described in this tread shows repeated failures of professionals to solve his problem.

decOder: Plumber/Hvac guy just left my home. He removed the small spring from the honeywell zone valve.
On Honeywell zone valves that spring closes valve. Power to motor opens valve. Repair guy made valve inoperative. Would demand free repair.

Auto vents are the simple way to insure venting. DecOder professionals apparently have failed to completely vent system.

On most expansions tanks, tire valve is used to set pressure that creates air space with diaphragm. It is not a vent. If there is water on air side then diaphragm is leaking.

To check tank pressure, shut off water feed valve. Drain water from system until zero psi. Check pressure on fitting, should be 12 psi, if not use air pump to raise it. Then open water feed valve. System gauge should settle at 12 psi, if not then adjust regulator to raise or drain some water to lower.
 
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Old 01-29-21, 07:34 AM
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On Honeywell zone valves that spring closes valve. Power to motor opens valve. Repair guy made valve inoperative.
Honeywell valves have two springs. Removing one will slow closing but the valve still operates satisfactorily.
 
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Old 01-29-21, 08:21 AM
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2john02458 - You are 100% correct. Honeywell has had this problem over 30 years. Remove one spring so valve does not close so fast. Other fixes is variable speed pump or another type zone valve. Personally I have resolved many of these types of problems without part changes. Honeywell actually had a white paper out probably about 25 years ago on the fix.
 
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Old 01-29-21, 10:46 AM
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I purchased the Taco 751-2. Going to replace the Caleffi Z1 and have them bleed the zone again.

When I let air out of the pipe above the expansion tank using the twist valve, I leave it open till I see a drop of water come out, it's ok to do this? I figured it lets air out of the system. The tank is from 2015.

​​​​​​
I never had to replace zone valves, the boiler is pushing 38yrs old. It seems the white Roger's zone valves that were previously installed closed and opened a lot slower.

I never had banging on the 2nd floor until I changed 1 zone valve, to the Caleffi. Auto air vents sound nice but I shouldn't need them. I expected to replace all zone valves without any issues. The 2 zones on the main floor are fine. No banging. The 2 zones on the 2nd floor is the issue.
 

Last edited by dec0der; 01-29-21 at 11:12 AM.
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Old 01-31-21, 07:29 PM
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When I let air out of the pipe above the expansion tank using the twist valve, I leave it open till I see a drop of water come out, it's ok to do this? I figured it lets air out of the system.
Expansion tanks are typically half filled with air accomodate expansion and contraction of water due to temperature changes.

That valve is to check for proper charge of 12 psi when boiler water pressure is reduced to 0 psi. Valve is not, and will not vent system. Other than a couple of drops from condensation no water should come out of valve. If there is quantity of water from diaphram leaks and tank is NG
 
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Old 02-01-21, 06:18 AM
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DH: I suspect he's talking about the auto vent cap on the top of the air scoop since he says "above the expansion tank" See picture in post #8.
 
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Old 02-02-21, 07:02 AM
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That auto vent on top of air scoop stops releasing air when it fills with water and float in vent shuts off flow.

If rest of system is filled with air, vent is useless until circulator brings more air into scoop. Then air will rise into vent, float drops to vent.

To me that is wishful thinking. Just install $8.29 Watts vents at high points and forget about it.

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Watts-05...Vent-3679000-p

On so many DIY treads see verbose diagnostics with out checking to see if basics are met.
 

Last edited by doughess; 02-02-21 at 07:32 AM.
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Old 02-02-21, 09:38 AM
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In response to DH @ post #18..... Or maybe the OP wants to discuss his zone valves... Its clear others have experienced water hammers with the honeywell valves. The OP is looking for solutions to this problem (a problem that ultimately reside at the valve). That is what all the contributors to this thread are trying to do. Will more venting help? Probably; Will it solve a water hammer problem that is caused by design flaws in a valve? No. I am starting to think you sell the watts vents for a living. You seem to turn every thread into an argument about them; that is of course after you tout being a 50 years and counting diy aficionado.

@OP: As others have posted, you really shouldn't get water out of the air valve on your expansion tank. That may be one problem. What pressure readings are you getting on your system when at rest and when operating? Maybe it is true that these honeywell valves cause hammers this severe but it would seem bizarre to me that any valve exists that water hammers that loud under normal operating flow and water pressures. I've had at my house one zone that was split into two using taco zone valves. I have an older taco circ on the line and it certainly isn't as capable as the newer pump. I have never heard a noise out of these valves and everything operates normally. (I point this out only to note that my Taco valves are quiet; as mentioned above, their mechanism of action is different than the honeywell)

Also, what Taco panel do you have and how did you wire it in? Is it possible something is out of sync between your circulator operating and zone valves opening/closing?

Installing new valves will be a chore for you or pricey if you pay someone to do it. In DH defense, venting at top zone is cheap, can't hurt, and probably will be helpful. And depending on your set up, it might be fairly easy to do.


If it were me, I would verify tank and system pressures are all good. Then I would verify valve and control panel wiring. Make sure there aren't any settings/jumpers on the valve or panel that control relay timings. After that I would explore adjusting or changing the valve and/or pump. At some point, as DH incessantly pushes for, I would explore air in the system and putting auto vents up high. However, given that the system has been bled several times without a change to the issue and that tweaking the valves and flow has improved the issue, I would put air low on the list of things to check with.
 
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Old 02-02-21, 11:00 AM
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On the subject of auto vents: It is foolish & in some places unlawful to put auto vents in an area where they are concealed such as under the covers of baseboard or convectors. I have seen ceilings fall due to a concealed and leaking auto vent on an upper floor.
 
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Old 02-02-21, 04:19 PM
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Modern auto-air-vents like Watts do not leak, but they can be opened for service.

The old, sealed can type i.e. Jacobus-Maid-O-Mist frequently leaked. Unrepairable garbage. On DIY there are many photos of them.

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Jacobus-...-1-8-Auto-Vent

DH has 12 Watts in enclosed heating elements. In 30 years NONE has leaked. In early days, 40, 50 years ago had many types that leaked. Recently found old Javobus and threw it away.

DH comes from high technology world where they constantly seek to make things better.

Frequently see on DIY people replacing item with same model/part number, when greatly improved replacement part cost less than original.

Also see DIY posts pushing the old way when there are newer, better ways.

DH grew up with a home stream heating system. Early every morning shoveled coal. Later removed ashes.

Am not a fool, just an old, happy camper with reliable, low cost, easy to maintain heating system.
.
 

Last edited by doughess; 02-02-21 at 04:43 PM.
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Old 02-03-21, 08:33 AM
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The issue is finally resolved.

I did not install the Taco 571-2.

Instead I bled the two zones on the second floor repeatedly. Bleeding while system was running then bleeding while boiler was shutdown. It seems all shaking of pipes have ceased. I even put the ball valves back to fully open this way I get full pressure again.

I like the automatic venting ideas but if God forbid that fitting/valve sprung a leak on the 2nd floor down to the main floor then basement, there would be thousands of dollars worth of damage and drama.

I never had a big problem with air, this was the first my pipes sounded like they were going to bust through the walls. I know the reason why this happened.

It's because of an hvac/plumber who installed a zone valve and didn't bleed the system correctly after the install. The air kept building up.

Now I sleep again and learned how to bleed the system myself.

To all you teens out there.... Heating/Plumbing/Electrician's make big money, it's a great trade to learn.
 
2john02458 voted this post useful.
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Old 02-03-21, 12:46 PM
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D,
The best thing you did was bleed the system with the boiler off. Never bleed the system with the pump on or you will constantly have problems.

If you bleed with system off and between 25-28 psi. The reason for the high pressure is so that when you have completed bleeding your pressure is above what the feeder is set for and no fresh water feeds back in which brings air.

When completed bleeding let a little more water out and run 18-20 psi cold and baring no leaks you will run air free as long as you don't open the system. That is why they call it a closed loop system.
 
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Old 02-03-21, 03:54 PM
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Thanks everyone for the replies.

I'm running into a new issue, it seems one of those zone valves is stuck open. It's my Caleffi Zone valve which is 2 winters old. The thermostat is off and I'm still getting heat. It wasn't like this before bleeding the zone.

Think sediment got caught in there? Should I re-bleed the zone?
 
  #25  
Old 02-03-21, 04:08 PM
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Congradulations to decOder fixing water hammer problem with venting.

For those worried about leaking Watts-Automatic-Vent-Valves there is simple solution.

Get eternal peace tightening small black plastic knob on top of it, which stops venting.

When water hammering starts again, loosen black knob to vent and stop hammering.

Would not follow suggestion to turn off circulator/pump when venting. That will create new problem … no heat.

In 30 years DH's 8 Watts-Automatic-Vent-Valves have not leaked.

For 20 years before DH had endless problems with vents. Some on DIY still are haunted by leaking vents valves. Others improve things and move on.

Love my $8.29 happyness solution. DH just reads of others problems and suggest solutions which are frequently ignored.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.supplyho..._PROD_FILE.pdf
 

Last edited by doughess; 02-03-21 at 05:34 PM.
 

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