W/M WG0-3 wiring w/ Hydrostat 3150, 4 Z/V on circulator w/ IDHW 2nd circulator


  #1  
Old 02-19-21, 12:51 PM
A
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 32
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
W/M WG0-3 wiring w/ Hydrostat 3150, 4 Z/V on circulator w/ IDHW 2nd circulator

Im sorry for long post. Had a few questions about wiring new boiler to finish install and then a few other questions that are less important.

Replaced boiler and redid IDHW to be on separate loop with 2nd circulator. Originally Bock SK-40 IDHW was on 5th zone.
Circulators now on return.
My original post (made new thread because that one just got too disorganized):
Original post

More info at bottom of post but here are my questions:

1st question:
The W/M install manual states to not wire directly to 3 wire zone valves. My setup is not really covered though as I have 4 (3 wire) zone vales/ 4 thermostats on 1 circulator and have Bock IDWH on separate return loop with its own circulator which will be wired with Taco single zone switching relay. So do I still need an isolation relay for zone valves? Did not have one before on old aquastat. IDHW tank was just setup as 5th zone so wiring was simpler. I do have a 24V AC Coil Volts, 15A @ 120V AC Contact Rating SPDT ice cube relay I can wire in but think need different relay where both coil and contacts 24cac? Seems I need to at least add relay for now?
Or does the thermostat cover this "isolation relay"? Like basically saying dont hook up T-T direct to ZV without thermostat?
Idk if should I get a separate Z/V controller too eventually?

I know with my current setup I will not have priority for IDHW but have had trouble finding info on how to set that up. Even though the proper way to setup IDHW tank is on separate circulator all wire diagrams are geared toward either all zone valves or all circulators.
I put the IDHW tank on separate circulator per Bock manual that states it should not be run on zone valve. I have that loop Teed off after 4 heating zones with flowchek on supply side/circulator on return and loop returns after heating zone circulator so think plumbed correctly.

From W/M manual
"When using 3-wire zone valves, install an isolation relay. Connect the zone valve end switch wires to the isolation relay coil. Connect the isolation relay contact across the boiler T-T terminals. Failure to comply can result in damage to boiler components or cause unreliable operation, resulting in possible severe property damage."

2nd question:
I did not realize the HydroStat 3150 that this comes with the WGO-3 includes the Hydrolevel Electro-Well LWC in the temperature probe (at least according to Hydrostat manual it does when installed on new boilers).
I have also installed my Mcdonnell & Miller GuardDog LWCO in Tee on Supply. Assume will just leave and wire into 120v power like it was originally wired on old boiler. Or should I remove and plug Tee?

The rest of these questions are for future upgrades.
3rd question:
Should I install a system bypass? Original did not have . Or is the circulator hold off feature on HydroStat sufficient protection as it should stop circulator if boiler temp drops below 115° and keep off until boiler reaches 125°. This is not something I'm attempting now but could look into it in the future if needed.

Not sure why but I used 1.5" return all the way up to circulators. Is that ok? In my mind made sense then regretted it but too late. My supply reduces to 1.25 just after outlet. Should my supply be 1.5" too? Or change return to 1.25"? I guess idea had been if doing system bypass would do a 1" or something off 1.5" supply to 1.5" return. Would require some work but did install L/R nipple/couplers to make easier to remove things. But changing supply to 1.5" all the way to header would be a lot of work let alone the 1.5" spirovent costs way more.

4th question:
Should I add outdoor reset? The HydroStat is setup to have one added. Assume this could help effecincy?

5th?
Add auto vent damper? Seems could help effecincy too but read they fail so may need to modify it to replace capacitor or something. I can do that...I solder electronics way better than pipes.


Some more info:
I replaced oil line with coated V-Tec line and added another firomatic valve after filter after where two tanks join to meet NFPA 31 code. Just have to finish installing the flex line.

Makeup fill now on supply below spirovent. Went with Califfi pressure regulator and BFP. But also added check downstream as worried they would not approve otherwise due to something about BVP could fail...originally CV was before IDHW tank supply which was where was going to install it but then questioned why need CV if have BFP which lead me down worm hole where found may also need CV due to plastic parts in BPP could fail under high boiler temps... Who knows. So now no CV before IDHW tank which hopefully fine as IDHW tank coil would have to fail to cause backflow. But if did have CV before IDHW tank should it not also have xpansion tank between IDHW tank and CV?

l also added valves at supply and return on boiler and moved expansion tank to be on supply with spirovent (originally xpansion tank was Teed off N tapping where Hyvent was which may work but not how should be installed per manual). Added ball valve below Hyvent to allow easy replacement. Valves also added above each Z/V to make for easy service if needed.

Whole thing has been way more work than expected. Took weeks just to get boiler into basement due to snow. Finally neighbor lowered down hatch with crane on truck and used engine lift to move old/new boilers once in basement.

The Bock tank was full (like 2in) of sediment and took hours to clean and drain. Replaced gate valve drain with ball valve as kept clogging and had to remove just to clear the sediment. Both anode rods where gone so assume thats at least where part of sediment came from. I had replaced the main rod 2-3 years ago and was still half good after 3 years so idk what happened. The hot supply is the 2nd rod so replaced that too once looked in tank and saw was gone. The next problem had were the threads on the coil nipples were cut wrong and could not thread anything onto them so replaced with galvanized nipples. OEM has plastic lined nipples so if needed will replace with OEM. When I installed (replaced W/M IDHW tank 5 years ago) used flexible sharkbite hoses which threaded on fine. Not clear to me what issue was...I installed copper unions on tankconnections (which are a pita but lube and big wrenches helps).

Also had terrible time sweating new fittings/pipes when started but after getting new Turbo Torch STK-99, SilvaBrite-100 solder and Everflux my soldering skills vastly improved. Also tried Bridget solder but liked the Silvabrite100 better. I had bought a Bernzomatic TS8000 but found the flame to be too large and would overheat flux.

All thats left is to do is finish oil supply line and wire everything.
So going to finish oil supply line to burner.
Then going to run new conduit to pumps and have reinstall old shutoff switch and figure out where to install switching relay controller and run 120v wire to it...may start to get lost on wiring after that. Might be best to start from scratch.

Until understand wiring will switch to rest of what left to do:
Clean and install exhaust, install cover back exhaust, fill/flush boiler/system...fix leaks (hopefully none)...idk what else.

Hopefully can figure out wiring and fire up... be nice to finally shower. Luckily had pellet stove to heat house. Will have a professional tech come out to run combustion test and tune. Also have to do town inspection as pulled a permit to be safe.





Extrol not installed yet in this pic




 

Last edited by aviator79; 02-19-21 at 01:51 PM.
  #2  
Old 02-19-21, 07:05 PM
PJmax's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Northern NJ - USA
Posts: 61,872
Received 1,480 Votes on 1,368 Posts
I'm not an installer. I service and I'm a wiring specialist.

The Taco zone controllers are a neat way to make connections.
The Weil Mclean boilers don't use 24v on their TT terminals.
That's why an isolation relay is needed when using 3 wire zone valves.

 
  #3  
Old 02-21-21, 05:01 AM
S
Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 3,228
Received 82 Votes on 77 Posts
I believe the control relay below has everything you are looking for including putting your IDHW tank on a priority zone.

You will not need your single relay for the tank pump. You can connect everything right to this control.

Go to the sight below and scrol down to the install instructions. It's easier than trying to explain it. You can look at the wiring schematic and make sure it's everything you need. Note the terminals in the upper left that go to TT on the boiler and the way to wire your tank pump for priority.

Make sure you order the ZVC. that is the one for zone valves and not pumps.

Hope this helops a little.

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Taco-ZVC...-with-Priority
 
  #4  
Old 02-21-21, 06:43 AM
S
Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 3,228
Received 82 Votes on 77 Posts
Will do best I can with your questions but there are a lot and it may be a little long.

1) The Taco ZVC should do the job.

2) You don't need 2, I would plug the one you put in. If not the built in will never go off because the other one will sense it first and why complicate more wiring.

3) Unless you had a high water content system before with CI rads or huge BL iron pipes bypass is not needed. It's only to temper water on older systems with new smaller low water content boilers.

4) Your 1.5 return is fine. The bigger the better in case all 5 zones call at once. It won't hurt anything and your 1.25 supply is fine also. They don't have to match. The nice thing about WM is their larger tappings, especially for steam. So many just come off with 1" now with numerous zones and wonder why it takes forever to heat if at all. You piped it right as far as I'm concerned.

ODR's are a matter of preference.In my opinion unless they are put in or figured in with a whole new system they are not worth it in residential but opinionsw vary. Commercial I highly recommend them but residential it can make certain areas uncomfortable. If heat loss is done on a room and say it comes to 6000 btu's. Baseboard is figured at about 600 btu's pf.@ 180* water going through it, so you need 10 ft of baseboard in that room and so on throughout the house. Now you install your ODR and it lowers the water temp due to the outdoor temp. The lower the water temp the less the heat so you better make sure they figured the heat right and you don't have drafts because it could become uncomfortable. On a brand new house maybe but on an older drafty house from personal experience I wouldn't. Just my opinion.

6) Additional check valve is a little overkill i think. There is a built in check valve in the feed valve and the BFP is only there to stop the boiler water from syphoning back into the potable water if the main is shut down. Your CV location is after the feed valve. Is 12 psi enough to open it. A better spot I think would have been before the BFP where you have street pressure coming into it. Where it is now you basicaqlly have 2 CV's installed and the BFP is useless unless those other 2 valves fail.

7) That is a good location for your extrol tank and the Hydrovent is a nice upgrade.

8) As far as I'm concerned auto vent dampers are a nuisance and not worth it.

One thing I would have done was put a tee on the return from the boiler instead of an elbow and add a boiler drain for easy access and put ball valves on both sides of the pumps so you don't have to drain the boiler to change them. Just makes things a little easier and the less you have to drain the better.

Don't forget to put a drain pipe on your relief valve point to the floor so if it goes off you won't get scalded. If you put a threade nipple and 90 and then if you want you can solder a piece of copper to a male adaptor for easy removal in the future with no additional soldering.

Just my thoughts.
 
  #5  
Old 02-21-21, 11:30 AM
A
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 32
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
PJmax
I'm not an installer. I service and I'm a wiring specialist.

The Taco zone controllers are a neat way to make connections.
The Weil Mclean boilers don't use 24v on their TT terminals.
That's why an isolation relay is needed when using 3 wire zone valves.
Thanks! Makes sense now. After this post was going to use my 24vac SPDT relay with the N/O contacts to TT on HydroStat which should have worked.
Then I think wiring the TT on switching relay for IDHW could go to ZC/ZR on Hydrostat with zone/indirect switch set to I which would bypass economy feature when IDHW called. Would not give priority to IDHW but should have worked...

spott
I believe the control relay below has everything you are looking for including putting your IDHW tank on a priority zone.

You will not need your single relay for the tank pump. You can connect everything right to this control.

Go to the sight below and scroll down to the install instructions. It's easier than trying to explain it. You can look at the wiring schematic and make sure it's everything you need. Note the terminals in the upper left that go to TT on the boiler and the way to wire your tank pump for priority.

Make sure you order the ZVC. that is the one for zone valves and not pumps.

Hope this helps a little.

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Taco-ZVC...-with-Priority
I did not see the Optional System and/or DHW and/or Secondary Circulators wiring (circled in blue) when I originally looked at getting this but now see it will work perfect.

So I will wire DHW pump to N/O on ZONE 5 PUMP END SWITCH and put jumper between 3 and 4 on ZONE 5 per wire diagram. Assume I just turn Economy feature off on HydroStat. This will make for a very clean install.
Going to order and just have to wait until get on Tuesday to wire up.
Thanks!





spott
Will do best I can with your questions but there are a lot and it may be a little long.

1) The Taco ZVC should do the job.
Agree. Ordered.


2) You don't need 2, I would plug the one you put in. If not the built in will never go off because the other one will sense it first and why complicate more wiring.
Agree. I was going to try to use. Has 5.8amp rating and maybe I am below that but will remove and plug. I am also not going to use the original service switch from old boiler as just overcomplicates things. It was wired in with this LWC and also the burner and circulator. Just a mess of wires that are not needed.



3) Unless you had a high water content system before with CI rads or huge BL iron pipes bypass is not needed. It's only to temper water on older systems with new smaller low water content boilers.
Excellent. Figured I could add one if needed but will not. Thanks



4) Your 1.5 return is fine. The bigger the better in case all 5 zones call at once. It won't hurt anything and your 1.25 supply is fine also. They don't have to match. The nice thing about WM is their larger tappings, especially for steam. So many just come off with 1" now with numerous zones and wonder why it takes forever to heat if at all. You piped it right as far as I'm concerned.
Thanks for confirming OK as is.


ODR's are a matter of preference. In my opinion unless they are put in or figured in with a whole new system they are not worth it in residential but opinions vary. Commercial I highly recommend them but residential it can make certain areas uncomfortable. If heat loss is done on a room and say it comes to 6000 btu's. Baseboard is figured at about 600 btu's pf.@ 180* water going through it, so you need 10 ft of baseboard in that room and so on throughout the house. Now you install your ODR and it lowers the water temp due to the outdoor temp. The lower the water temp the less the heat so you better make sure they figured the heat right and you don't have drafts because it could become uncomfortable. On a brand new house maybe but on an older drafty house from personal experience I wouldn't. Just my opinion.
My house is built in 1996 but if this is not needed I will skip.


6) Additional check valve is a little overkill i think. There is a built in check valve in the feed valve and the BFP is only there to stop the boiler water from syphoning back into the potable water if the main is shut down. Your CV location is after the feed valve. Is 12 psi enough to open it. A better spot I think would have been before the BFP where you have street pressure coming into it. Where it is now you basically have 2 CV's installed and the BFP is useless unless those other 2 valves fail.
I know the Caleffi BFP has a CV but not sure that the feed valve has one, just a shutoff valve:
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Caleffi-...auge-NPT-x-NPT

The one I installed is just a swing CV from Lowes so will open with 2-3psi.
https://www.lowes.com/pd/AMERICAN-VA...lve/1000248917

I agree it is be overkill and the only reason put one in was there used to be one upstream from IDHW tank but as I said that made no sense to me. Why have CV and BVP so went online to try to figure out and like I said I went down a worm hole and what I found said the BFP may not be sufficient. I read where inspectors said the BPV CV is not metal and could fail due to hot water from boiler melting it (even though it is rated for 210*F Max/250*F Emergency).
So I just added it as was worried about inspection. Can be removed or moved or left as is. Will see what town inspection says. They may very well require one upstream of IDHW tank unless coil is double wall which is crazy and unlikely but I found online that some places require that because if IDHW tank coil fails then you could get backflow due to the leak. If that was case I assume should have an extrol tank before CV to allow for expansion of water in tank (which mine did not have).


7) That is a good location for your extrol tank and the Hydrovent is a nice upgrade.
Excellent. Thanks!


8) As far as I'm concerned auto vent dampers are a nuisance and not worth it.
I would rather not deal with it so will skip.
Thanks.



One thing I would have done was put a tee on the return from the boiler instead of an elbow and add a boiler drain for easy access and put ball valves on both sides of the pumps so you don't have to drain the boiler to change them. Just makes things a little easier and the less you have to drain the better.
The Tee and drain is a good idea but I did put a 1.5" ball valve just before return inlet and 1.25" ball valve just after supply. So with the shutoff valves before each pump and drains on IDHW tank loop and boiler figure can change pumps fairly easy with little to no spillage without draining boiler since they are bolted to flanges.



Don't forget to put a drain pipe on your relief valve point to the floor so if it goes off you won't get scalded. If you put a threaded nipple and 90 and then if you want you can solder a piece of copper to a male adaptor for easy removal in the future with no additional soldering.
Yes, will do. My reasoning for installing the ball valves on supply and return of boiler was to hopefully make it easy to replace the relief valve as my last one was seized. IDK if that was at least in part why the boiler failed but either way was an oversight that I regret. I had never had boiler professionally serviced in last 7 years as just cleaned it myself. At 25 years old maybe I just failed but maybe was due to that frozen relief valve so was expensive lesson.



Just my thoughts.
I really appreciate you taking the time for such a thorough reply.
 
  #6  
Old 02-21-21, 03:23 PM
S
Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 3,228
Received 82 Votes on 77 Posts
You are very welcome. It is a lot of work and you did a good job and didn't skimp on anything. It is no big deal about the check valve but just for future reference the feed valve, as all feed valves are is a directional valve which means there is most likely an arrow and it will only work in 1 direction. I pulled it up below if you loook at the literature.

There are state codes you must follow but sometimes the towns or city want certain things so depending where you live 9it may be required.

I saw that 11/2 ball valve after my post. I didn't think anythin would fit that cloose to the door. Anyway you put a lot of work into it and it come out good. It looks like there's a light at the end of the tunnel.

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Caleffi-...YaAqpnEALw_wcB
 
  #7  
Old 02-24-21, 05:16 PM
A
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 32
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
So with the ZVC405-4 I assume I remove the circulator wires from the HydroStat as it will be run by the ZVC405-4.

Which means I lose a lot of the functions of the Hydrostat (which does have DHW priority*) including thermal targeting, eco mode and circulator hold off.

Is loosing all these functions worth it? I am not sure...Seems like maybe the single zone switching relay is still better option to keep these functions...

Think Im going back to installing the SR501-4 single zone switching relay for IDHW to keep the the HydroStat functions.

*NOTE: • Smart DHW Priority: During a call from an indirect water heater, the control will de-energize the circulator contacts (C1/C2) to heat only the indirect tank ensuring an adequate supply of domestic hot water. The control will re-energize the circulator when the indirect tank is satisfied or if the boiler temperature reaches 170°F. If the indirect call continues for 45 minutes, the control will override the priority function energizing the circulator to provide space heating.


 
Attached Images

Last edited by aviator79; 02-24-21 at 05:47 PM.
  #8  
Old 02-25-21, 03:13 PM
S
Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 3,228
Received 82 Votes on 77 Posts
A,
If the Hydrostat has all the functions you're looking for and you only need something for the DHW tank pump then the single relay for the pump is fine.
 
  #9  
Old 02-25-21, 05:20 PM
A
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 32
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
S,
I am not sure...I will use whichever controller will work best. Sorry I am just still a bit lost.

I think either will work so trying to figure out if there are any advantages to using the ZVC405-4 over the SR501-4.

Looking at schematics I think using the ZVC405-4 I can still hook to ZR on HydroStat (wire diagram 5) so that the thermal targeting function can still be used (whether that matters I don't know (IDK)). However, I would lose the circulator hold off function as the system circulator would be wired to the ZVC405-4 not the HydroStat (again IDK if that matters). So I think I understand how to wire the ZVC405-4 for the most part.


If use the SR501-4 switching relay I would hook 6(N/O) and 5 to ZR/ZC on Hydrostat. Then I guess I need to make a series circuit with 24v transformer to IDHW aquastat to W and 24vac on SR501-4 (ALTERNATIVE WIRING (24 VAC POWERED INPUT SIGNAL)?
This wire diagram is not included on the latest revs of manual. It only includes the ALTERNATIVE WIRING (TANKLESS COIL) diagram, which I think I can also follow but then has note/warning to wire the SR501-4 120vac to HydroStat which I can do:

Note: When using Alternative Wiring diagram, the boiler operating
control’s ZC terminal will see the load of the circulator(s).
Warning: When using Alternative Wiring diagram, wiring
instructions must be followed so power originates from the boiler
aquastat. Failure to follow these wiring instructions may result in
a secondary source of power being connected to the boiler that
may activate it under certain circumstances, causing injury or death.
























 
  #10  
Old 02-25-21, 09:24 PM
A
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 32
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Cannot edit posts after too long here but realized I wrote that wrong above.

Think R/W on SR501-4 wired directly to IDHW is all that is needed as it has the 24vac.
Will use relay for Z/Vs to TT on HydroStat.

How I would like to wire the circulator to SR501-4 is like this where TT to boiler goes to ZR/ZC on HydroStat.




But thinking I need to wire like this, thou I really am not sure. I can do either just above seems so much simpler. Is there a reason Taco stopped showing above wire diagram in new manual?




 
  #11  
Old 02-26-21, 01:33 PM
S
Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 3,228
Received 82 Votes on 77 Posts
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Hydrolev...-Reset-Control.
Go to page 4, Diagram #3 I believe is what you want.

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Taco-SR5...witching-Relay.
Go to the wiring instructions when you scroll down.

How are you going to connect your zone valves. I know you said relay but what relay.

That 2nd diagram you showed is if you have a tankless coil. Tou want the cold start application.

What you can do is call TACO, explain to them what you have and they can tell you the best way to connect.
 
  #12  
Old 02-26-21, 02:45 PM
A
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 32
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I was going to use this 24vac coil SPDT relay and base
https://www.grainger.com/product/OMR...se-Relay-1YCN1
using the COM and N/O (1 & 3) wired to TT and coil (2 & 7) wired to terminals 3 on ZVs and 24vac transformer per diagram posted by PJmax above.


I could get one of these next week but think that what I have will work.
https://www.grainger.com/product/GRA...ic-Relay-6AZU2

or the white Roger's
https://www.grainger.com/product/WHI...ic-Relay-4E658

Ok will wire switching relay per typical (cold start) diagram. Easy enough. The "cold start" threw me off.

Thanks!

 
  #13  
Old 02-27-21, 01:48 PM
A
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 32
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Bent a new conduit pipe to connect to boiler. Came out good i think.
I do have the firomatuc power supply that these boiler power wires come from.

Got the 120vac connections done. Hopefully correctly.
per this video
Whenever this is a call domestic hot water, the indirect simply returns 120v to the Zr terminal...
at 2:45 min
https://hydrolevel.com/chapter-2-hyd...ettings-video/

So im not sure that it matters but I connected terminal 6 N/O on SR501 to Zc on HydroStat (red) and terminal 5 COM on SR501 to Zr on HydroStat (yellow).

On Hydrostat I have hot in (black) from the new EMT conduit i made.

L1 has a pigtail that connects to other end of service switch, PK wire from burner and H from ST501 (black). I had disconnected burner and circulator wires from Hydrostat to switch knockout location of flex conduit so the circulator flex would reach taco system circulator and got a bit confused about how to wire back up. Mainly where to connect the PK wire (which is more red than pink) as didnt remember if was hooked to a terminal or just loose. Per wire diagram think got it hooked correctly to other side of service switch.

L2 on HydroStat has pigtail to neutral in (white) and SR504 N terminal (white).

On SR504 N pigtails to IDHW circulator neutral (white) and IDHW circultor hot (yellow) hooks to terminal 4 N/O per wire diagram. I also have a ground going to the IDHW circulator as the Grundfos pump requires it. So I put a ground from HydroStat to SR504. So my short flex conduit between SR504 has four insulated 16g and one bare 16g which assume makes it over filled and not to code as think the 40% max fill rate is four 16g on 3/8 flex. Assume would need to get a 1/2 flex conduit but IDK.

Sorry for long post but im not super knowledgeable with 120vac electrical so just hoping I did correctly.

Off to redo zone wires.











 

Last edited by aviator79; 02-27-21 at 02:21 PM.
  #14  
Old 02-28-21, 10:51 AM
S
Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 3,228
Received 82 Votes on 77 Posts
A,
This is just for your info but oil burner circuits are wired with 14g solid copper wire. Why are you using 16g wire which only supports up to 13 amps and you are using a 15 amp. breaker. For line voltage control wiring in MA 14g solid copper is reqired, not even stranded for connection purposes and 18g solid for low voltage like zone valves and stats and all 24V circuits. This is PJ's specialty, and could shed some insight on this.

Just curious where you got the idea of 16g wire or if it's permitted where you live.

Just my thoughts.
 
  #15  
Old 02-28-21, 05:55 PM
A
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 32
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
S,
You make a good point.
Originally had 12/2 from firomatic junction box to service switch on boiler which was then wired with 16g to aquastat, LWC, burner and circulator. Boiler is on a 20a CB.

I did buy a 250ft roll of 12/2 romex and some 12/2 flex whips as I thought I was going to have to extend the wire from firomatic junction to hydrostat but after bending new EMT conduit was able to reach Hydrostat.

The flex conduit that came on Hydrostat to burner and circulator looks to be 16g and I ended up using pieces of flex off old service switch which is why ended up with 16g to SR504. The ground wires I added were 14g as that is all I had.

Now if code says I need to use 14g to SR504 then I can change but it but dont think it needs it in terms of amps/distance. And then burner and circulator from HydroStat? Upgrading burner to 14g will be a PITA due to 4 pin connector. The Becket burner is rated at 5.8a max and circulators use very little. SR504 can be wired with 18g for 120v per TACO manual so also assume draw would be fine on 16g but if not to code I need to fix.

Also I did note that the HydroStat service switch doea not seem very robust and is wired with stranded 18g which to me is undersized but thats what it came with. I mean if it was a remote/isolated service switch then ok but per wire diagram HOT in is wired to it then other end to L1 (and as stated above I also have SR504 wired to it).
 
  #16  
Old 02-28-21, 06:17 PM
A
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 32
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
On another note was wiring thermostats/ZVs (using 18g solid core copper) and a bit confused why my 24v transformer had LOAD and NEG labels as not obvious to me that it should matter. I wired with LOAD going to thermostats and relay (red on diagram).

NEG going to C on thermostats and terminal 2 on ZVs (blue in diagram).

Then terminal 3s on ZVs go to relay (green on diagram).

Returns from thermostats to each terminal 1 on ZVs (white on diagram).

So should work unless the transformer load side should be going to 2s and C and the neg to red but it should not matter. Right?

Also, I could only use one of the 24v transformers because only have 1 relay and assume would need two separate relays or diodes or something if connected both transformers to single relay coil. I think this is ok for 4 thermostats/ZVs as the 2nd transformer was only needed for the fifth IDHW ZV.




.
 
  #17  
Old 03-01-21, 06:27 AM
G
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 3,018
Received 13 Votes on 13 Posts
Now if code says I need to use 14g to SR504 then I can change but it but don't think it needs it in terms of amps/distance.
The circuit breaker doesn't just need to be sized to the maximum presently connected load - it also is required to protect the circuit in the event of an overload due to a short. A 15-amp breaker has to have AWG 14 wire, or larger. Your installation presents an unacceptable fire hazard.

Now, about the "NEG" - I think the last letter is C, not G? It might be referring to the National Electric Code? Who knows.
 

Last edited by gilmorrie; 03-01-21 at 07:15 AM.
  #18  
Old 03-01-21, 11:45 AM
A
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 32
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Well then I will redo connections to SR504 with 14g. Assume the burner needs to be wired with 14g as well then? Why is W/M shipping burner harness with 16g if that is not to code? I just measured PK wire and diameter is 0.50" so it is 16g. I assume the pigtail off burner is 16g too.
Circulators need 14g too?
 

Last edited by aviator79; 03-01-21 at 12:30 PM.
  #19  
Old 03-01-21, 12:39 PM
G
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 3,018
Received 13 Votes on 13 Posts
The National Electric Code does not apply to internal wiring inside an appliance. That will typically come under the purview of industry standards and organizations like Underwriters Lab. You may have a small appliance, such as an electric clock - the clock's internal wiring is one thing, but the 120-V house wiring that serves the receptacle that the clock plugs into is where the NEC and local codes are to to be followed. You can debate the logic, but that's the rules.
 
  #20  
Old 03-01-21, 03:39 PM
A
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 32
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Well I guess I felt that the boiler/burner/circulator are not single appliance but get what you are saying as that is all factory wiring. However, if the "field" wiring I did to the SR504 is a fire hazard I would think that at least the wiring to the burner is also a hazard given the PK wire hooks directly to hot side of service switch.
Or is all I need to do is replace the wires between Hydrostat and SR504 with 12g (or 14g if swap 20a CB for 15a? I will do that just have to go buy some 1/2" FMT.

It is a bit annoying that supplyhouse.com lists that boiler includes Service Switch and Electrical Junction Box but does not. Assume they stopped including when switched to they Hydrostat from whatever previous controller was. I am really not a fan of the service switch on the Hydrostat. Had wanted to reinstall my original service switch, I just got confused with the wiring as originally burner was wired from service switch junction box. I assume people at Hydrostat know more than me and the tiny switch and 18 gauge wires are fine...but to me this 18g stranded wire seems to present more of a fire hazard than the 16g i used.
Keep in mind I am not trying to argue. I am just trying to get this installed correctly. Maybe I will replace the leads on the switch. Have to see what switch is rated for but assume must be 15a.
Just now noticed picture show that where switch is used to just be a knockout.
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Hydrolev...-Reset-Control


Edit, I think I get it now. W/M added the toggle switch to Hydrostat when removed the junction box/service switch they used to include...

Anyways, TIA.

 
  #21  
Old 03-01-21, 04:11 PM
G
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 3,018
Received 13 Votes on 13 Posts
I don't think I can go much beyond what I and others have already said. In some jurisdictions, you do not have to get a permit or follow code if you do your own work. It that is your situation, then maybe you can legally ignore our comments. There are reasons for code requirements, but we are not here to justify or negotiate them. You can always consult with a licensed electrician or any local code official.
 
  #22  
Old 03-02-21, 12:01 PM
S
Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 3,228
Received 82 Votes on 77 Posts
A,
The bottom line is don't worry about how the boiler came with the prewired controls. They have to be approved before they can be put on the market.

What you must worry about is what must be field wired which is what you will do.

Fist off 12AVG and a 12A breaker is overkill for a boiler system like yours. 15a and 14avg wire is plenty. The field wiring circuit for your system is as follows. It is just a series circuit starting with a 15 amp breaker.

From the breaker you go to the emergency switch, 1 door out from the boiler, usually on the wall beside the cellar door, then down to the electric firomatic above the boiler then to the boiler service switch on the boiler then to L1 & L2 on the control. That is your basic wiring diagram.

If you add zones or other bells & whistles you will 14AVG wire for line voltage controls and 18AVG wire for low voltage wiring, both solid core.

Personally if you don't want to change your 12AVG wiring already installed to the emergengy switch to the firomatic above the boiler and just start with your 14AVG from the firomatic to the service switch at the boiler and beyond that would be fine.
 
aviator79 voted this post useful.
 

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
 
Ask a Question
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: